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National University Ireland - records of graduates

  • 08-08-2011 8:48pm
    #1
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone know what sources (online or otherwise) might be available for tracking down records of a doctor who received an MD from Queens College, Cork and an MCh from Catholic University, Dublin around 1865-75 ?

    I gather these are now both part of NUI, but I'm open to correction.

    He was born in 1846, so I'm guessing his qualifications would have been earned between the age of 20 & 30 or thereabouts.

    I would be interested in getting any information about him, and I guess that records of his graduations would be a starting place.

    Anyone know where I could start ?

    z


Comments

  • #2
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Did this doctor stay in Ireland ?

    If so I may be able to trace some listings in directories if you can post his name



    Shane


  • #3
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks Shane - yep, he stayed in Ireland alright. The name is Richard Ryan, and he lived in Bailieboro.

    I referenced him here previously - served in the Irish Ambulance Corps in the Franco Prussian War, so he would have been qualified by then - 1870.

    He was also involved in the Bailieboro workhouse if that helps narrow things down.

    z

    p.s. I see he has an obituary in the Irish Journal of Medical Science from 1926 but you need a sub to view it.


  • #4
    Nhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 309 ✭✭Nhead


    I have actually used the records of the RUI a bit the NUI archives have the matriculation records of the RUI but I think that they have Queens universities as well which gives information on the student, where they are from and fathers occupation, dob etc. There is also the Royal University of Ireland Calendar (which even though was started in 1879 has a list of graduates going back well before that). UCD archives might have something also but you have to book to get into their archives as the room is small. Hope that helps.


  • #5
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Three Richard Ryans listed in the list of 'Registered Medical Practitioners in Ireland' 1877 - I presume the 2nd is yours :
    Richard Ryan, L.R.C.P. & S. Edin., L.A. Dub, Midleton
    Richard Ryan, M.D M.S. Q.U.I., Bailieboro, Co. Cavan
    Richard S. Ryan, M.R.C.S.E., L.R.C.P. Edin, Callan

    L.R.C.P. & S. Edin. = Licentiate Royal Collage of Physicians, Edinburgh (not sure about the S.. surgeon?)
    L.A. Dub = Licentiate of the Apothecaries Hall, Dublin
    M.D M.S. Q.U.I.= Doctor of Medicine, Master of Surgery of the Queens University, Ireland

    In 1880, 1884 and 1894 he is listed as the Medical Officer (as M.D. M. OH?.) of Bailieborough Poor Law Union

    I'll have a look for in other earlier listings later on....


    Shane


  • #6
    CeannRua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    There are two archives services in UCC. The student registers would be with: http://ocla.ucc.ie/archives/contact.asp


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  • #7
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks for all the replies. I've mailed UCC archives to see what they might expect to have on file for someone in that time period.

    As a matter of interest, there's a bit of lore in the family about some fast moves being pulled which ended up in a catholic doctor moving up from Limerick to become the medical officer for the workhouse in Bailieboro. The understanding was that this would not normally have been a role filled by catholics in Ulster at the time. Is there likely to be anything to this, or is it just a bit of lore ? Were the officers of workhouses as likely to be catholic as not in the 1870s ?

    z


  • #8
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    UCC got back to me this morning. They have an online record of 1st year registrations from 1849, so they found him there. Thanks UCC.

    I never had his parents names before, but they were listed on his registration documents, along with their residence (town) so that was a major bonus.

    Interestingly, according to the registration information his parents were living in Midleton at the time. Family lore always indicated he was from Tipperary or Limerick. It's possible they may have moved by the time he was 17.

    I wonder how likely it would be that families would move around like that at the time ? He was born in 1846, so during the famine so I guess movement might have been expected.

    z


  • #9
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Putting 2 & 2 together, I've copped on to the fact that the Richard Ryan, student from Midleton is most likely to have become Richard Ryan, MD practicising in Midleton, so I think I got the student records of the wrong guy.

    Richard Ryan, L.R.C.P. & S. Edin., L.A. Dub, Midleton as listed by Shane a few days ago.

    z


  • #10
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    difficult to tell with that Midleton connection ..

    If the 'other' Richard Ryan (the Midleton one) trained in Edinburgh.. would he have records in Q.U.I. Cork ?

    Based on his qualifications it looks like your Richard qualified in Cork... unless they were both there for a time and some records have been 'crossed'


    Shane


  • #11
    CeannRua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Zagmund, I think this must be him on the census and he lists his qualifications as being from RUI: http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000439162/. I think it is very unlikely student records were crossed. UCC would only have this level of detail (eg parents' names on its own students).

    County of birth as Limerick so presume the Chuil an Chocaire suggested by Insect Overlord sounds good.

    There is likely info regarding his appointment in the minute books of Bailieborough Poor Law Union and the Anglo-Celt newspaper is online on the Irish Newspaper Archive website. Might be an obituary there about them and and failing availability of info in the PLU minute books there might be something about his appointment in the newspaper.


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  • #12
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks for all that. That's his census record alright. It's probably fair to say that when he was filling in his own census return he was unlikely to record the wrong county, so it's more than likely Limerick based on that.

    I have his obituary from the Anglo Celt (only a photocopy, I can't find the original online) and it mentions that "he qualified M.D., M.Ch. in 1871 (Queens College Cork and Catholic University Dublin)". The 'Midleton' Richard Ryan I have also graduated in 1871, and as you say the university is unlikely to have mixed up their records.

    I aim to head up to Cavan to check out the minute books at some stage, but I haven't made it up. His obituary (don't have it to hand right now) mentions the day and date he "stepped off a coach" and arrived in Bailieboro to take up his role with the Poor Law Union, so the minute books prior to that should have information on him - an address at least.

    I think there was at least one inaccuracy in his obituary (being awarded a medal by the French in 1871 or thereabouts, but that specific medal only came into existence some times in the 1900s) so I'm taking it as only mostly authoritative in its information.

    So far online I've dug up an article he published in the Irish Journal of Medical Science in 1874, a letter to the BMJ in 1906, a reference to him attending at the opening of some religious novitiate, and a few other references. This internet yoke is brilliant . . .

    I haven't done much in the way of original research on things like baptism certs as I'm still gathering 'lore' and other anecdotal information - if we know his year of birth and we believe the location to be Chuil an Chocaire, can someone give me some pointers/refreshers as to what I can check online ?

    z


  • #13
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    have you found his marriage ?

    the cert would give his father's name and occupation which will help confirm, or rule out, any baptisms you find ..


    Shane


  • #14
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    If you are working back to the marriage, a good place to start is with a birth cert for one of the children. Younger children often have the most accurate age - and luckily there are two with fairly distinctive names with good matches on the BMD Index :

    name: James Raphael Francis Ryan
    registration district: Bailieborough
    event type: Birth
    registration quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1897
    volume number: 2 / page number: 308

    name: Una Teresita Ryan
    registration district: Bailieborough
    event type: Birth
    registration quarter and year: Oct - Dec 1895
    volume number: 2 / page number: 303

    Birth certs from the GRO will show exact date and place of birth, parents full names, father's occupation etc


    Shane


  • #15
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    actually there's a shortcut... looks like the births of some of the children are included in the extracted civil records on FamilySearch - including a good match for Rose :

    Name: Rose Mary Ryan
    Birth date: 11 May 1877
    Birthplace: Bailieboro, Co. Cavan (Superintenents District)
    Parents : Richard Ryan & Eliza Farrelly
    Reference Number: v 7-1 p 427

    (the extracted births include some record between 1864 and about 1880.. so the younger children will not be included)

    following on from that, and the number of years married that Richard and Eliza have entered on the 1911 census, there a good possible match for their marriage :

    Name: Richard Ryan
    Registration district: Bailieborough
    Event type: Marriage
    Year: 1875
    volume : 7 / page : 380

    name: Eliza Farrelly
    [same index references as Richard]

    A marriage cert would give you additional details such as names of the father's, occupations for groom, fathers and bride if applicable. Also names of witnesses and date and place of marriage etc


    Shane


  • #16
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Awesome - thanks for all that. Information is coming hard and fast. I'm away for the weekend but will consolidate all the information when I'm back.

    z


  • #17
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Once you have a location narrowed down, you can then check to see which parish it's located in. Then you can check what dates they cover and where the records are available.

    Films of the most of the historic RC registers for are available in the National Library in Dublin, and some are available on a pay-website : www.rootsireland.ie

    Ryan is a very common surname in the mid-west, so you need all the clues you can get before you dive into parish records.




    Shane


  • #18
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks for the pointers. I signed up for rootsireland.ie and got the wedding certificate details for Richard Ryan & Eliza Farrelly - these are definitely the correct couple.

    The father is listed as John Ryan, whereas the father of the student from Midleton is listed as Jeremiah Ryan, so it's looking like they are different people (unless Jeremiah & John are versions of the same name, which I don't think it the case).

    What I got back from rootsireland.ie was a transcription of the original record I presume. I'm still getting the hang of the various sources at the moment - if I wanted to get the original (a la scanned in census forms) what are my options ?

    I presume the church in Bailieboro where they married could have some records but not the official state record, but is the primary source going to be the microfilm copies in the National Library ? I've no problem (other than time) getting to the Library, I just haven't used it yet. Last time I was researching back in the 90s this sort of stuff was accessible either from Lombard Street or the Archives in the Four Courts but has that now all moved to the National Library ?

    Are there online sources similar to rootsireland.ie that give access to the original document rather than a transcription ?

    z


  • #19
    shanew
    Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The RootsIreland records are generally transcripts of parish records rather than certs, and these are often less detailed than state records or civil marriage certs. A film of the parish register where the marriage took place is probably available in the National Library, but will probably not show any more details than the transcript you have.

    You can order a research cert for the marriage (which is photocopy of the civil register) from the GRO head office in Roscommon or collect one in the research room in Dublin. This will show the additional detail I mentioned earlier.. e.g. father's occupations, place of residence of the bride and groom etc



    Shane


  • #20
    bdaks.
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bdaks.


    The Dr Richard Ryan mentioned in this thread actually lived in a cottage next door to our house. Its is a old farmhouse, but its still standing. He is buried in St Annes Church grounds. Beside side entrance to church. There are details of his family and dates of their deaths on the side and back of the headstone.
    I hope this is of some use to you. My wifes grand-parents bought the farmhouse.
    Lisnalee, Virginia Road, Bailieborough.
    Approx .5k from town.


  • #21
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Thanks for that reply. I've been to the grave in the church, and visited his house/practice on the main street as well as 'the Villa' which is (now) in the grounds of the sports centre, but I'm not aware of him living in another house there, so this is news to me. Is Lisnalee the large house in the grounds of the sports centre or another one ?

    Looking at this map - https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Virginia+Road,+Bailieborough,+cavan,+ireland&hl=en&ll=53.914608,-6.97127&spn=0.002209,0.006539&sll=49.015356,-1.051254&sspn=0.314787,0.837021&t=h&hnear=Virginia+Rd,+Bailieborough,+County+Cavan,+Ireland&z=18 - I see a modern house on Chapel Road called "the Villa", but the one I'm thinking of is the grey blob directly backing on to the leisure centre towards Virginia Road.

    z


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  • #22
    bdaks.
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bdaks.


    The location of the house is 53.90117-6.979054. It seemingly was a 2 bed a farmhouse. We are aware that it was bought of a Dr Ryan. We will take another look at the deeds and will be fit to give you dates.


  • #23
    jillryanduncan
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭jillryanduncan


    Dr Richard Ryan is my great grand father. I was down with my father today visiting his grave. My grandfather is James Ryan and was the youngest son of Richard and Elizabeth. He practiced as a solicitor with his brother Richard in a practice in Dublin.Yes there is an interesting story on how he acquired his position. I am really interested in what your interest is in my great grand father.Kind regards
    Jillian Ryan


  • #24
    jillryanduncan
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭jillryanduncan


    My father James Ryan, son of James Ryan,youngest son of Richard,would have all of the information you are looking for. He also has pictures of the house as it was in it's original state. As you saw it is still standing but in a poor state. Another interesting fact is Elizabeth's sister Ann married a Dr Burke. Kieran Burke, original founder member of The Dubliners is his great gran son.Kind Regards Jill


  • #25
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    Hiya Jill. It looks like my father & your father are cousins. I was talking to him (my father) about this thread last night and he knows your dad and has been in touch over the years. I won't go into detail on thread here, so I'll send you a PM with contact details, etc . . .

    It's good to see boards.ie genealogy forum coming up with links like this.

    Regards,

    z


  • #26
    zagmund
    Registered Users Posts: 2,501 ✭✭✭zagmund


    jillryanduncan wrote: »
    My father James Ryan, son of James Ryan,youngest son of Richard,would have all of the information you are looking for. He also has pictures of the house as it was in it's original state. As you saw it is still standing but in a poor state. Another interesting fact is Elizabeth's sister Ann married a Dr Burke. Kieran Burke, original founder member of The Dubliners is his great gran son.Kind Regards Jill

    Interesting - I have records of Eliza/Elizabeth, Thomas J & Mary Clare Farrelly but not Ann.

    Funny enough, I was down in Cavan (not Bailieboro) last week with my Dad - we were looking through the minute books for the Bailieboro Poor Law Union ('the workhouse') for references to him. We read through the minutes for the meeting when he was appointed in 1871. See this thread for more details - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056587912. We also noted that Eliza/Elizabeth (his wife-to-be) was listed as a recipient of monies from the workhouse - she was some sort of supplier. While our GGFather was listed against 'salary' she was listed against 'sundry' or something like that.

    Again, I'll contact you offline and we can share details.

    z


  • #27
    bdaks.
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bdaks.


    Dr Richard Ryan sold the house to my wifes grand parents. The legal was done by Ryans solicitors in Dublin. The transfer of sale papers we have are hand written and signed by Dr Richard. These date back to 3rd April 1926. Richard was a tennant in the house from 1881 and on the 14th day of Jan 1899 purchased the house and lands for 156 pounds.
    The legal document (Hand written) was drafted and signed by Richard Ryan Solicitor. 9 Harcourt St Dublin.
    A Bernadette Ryan (spinster) also signed the document. Possibly witnessing transfer.

    We were looking into the history of the house and this is where we are at.
    Hoping this fills a gap somewhere in your history.


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