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4 bed house with 5 bedrooms

2

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  • #32
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Chet T16 wrote: »
    It's the same as the two downstairs rooms

    Measure them and see if they comply.
    I gave you the reasons earlier as to how you can classify them as bedrooms. I’m on your side, remember.

    Just giving you opinions based on the photo, but measure them in real life.


  • #33
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scamalert wrote: »
    how the hell window are to small in that pic ? the ones on roof in attic would be 3rd the size on most houses, and those are on first floor, even a good kick would take out entire frame if one was in any danger.

    BTW floors look nice and black skirting while not a fan but seems done well.

    It’s not the whole window you measure. It’s only the opening section that can count towards the area of 0.33 Sq. M, 450mm wide and 750mm tall.

    It’s measured while opened too, so the effective clear opening. You have to discount the frames, handles etc


  • #34
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    kceire wrote: »
    It’s not the whole window you measure. It’s only the opening section that can count towards the area of 0.33 Sq. M, 450mm wide and 750mm tall.

    It’s measured while opened too, so the effective clear opening. You have to discount the frames, handles etc
    thats actually very small window needed, 50cm total just went to measure my window like in OP pic, and its closer to 60cm with frame just on the part that opens.


    thou to just get back i dont see any radiators in the room, might be out of reach of picture could that be contributing factor more likely.


  • #35
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scamalert wrote: »
    thats actually very small window needed, 45cm total just went to measure my window like in OP pic, and its closer to 55cm without any frame just on the part that opens.


    thou to just get back i dont see any radiators in the room, might be out of reach of picture could that be contributing factor more likely.

    Open the window fully.
    Then measure the clear opening.

    The total area needs to be 0.33 Sq. M. With the width a minimum of 450mm of clear opening. That means the height has to be at least 750mm but can be bigger.

    The basic old school test and I’ve seen this been done on site over the years, is to see if a 450mm square cube can fit out. That would be a rule of thumb.


  • #36
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    kceire wrote: »
    Open the window fully.
    Then measure the clear opening.

    The total area needs to be 0.33 Sq. M. With the width a minimum of 450mm of clear opening. That means the height has to be at least 750mm but can be bigger.

    The basic old school test and I’ve seen this been done on site over the years, is to see if a 450mm square cube can fit out. That would be a rule of thumb.
    ok i might measured wrong as a bit hard to follow on pic with an angle, so would he need to measure the one on the right that has another opening at the top if so, then yes i could see it could be a bit short of 75cm height.


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  • #37
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »
    That's a bedroom.

    I agree
    Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »

    Fire regs etc only come into it with attic conversions generally (access/escape).

    .

    I don’t agree. Fire regs are applicable to all habitable rooms within a dwelling. Whether that be smoke detection, fire doors, alternative means of escape etc

    Not just attics.


  • #38
    q85dw7osi4lebg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭q85dw7osi4lebg


    kceire wrote: »
    I agree



    I don’t agree. Fire regs are applicable to all habitable rooms within a dwelling. Whether that be smoke detection, fire doors, alternative means of escape etc

    Not just attics.

    Note I said the word generally, if a room is of standard ceiling height and you have the obvious safety measures in place, a room is a room. Floor area doesn't matter (think box room, bar attic)

    I guarantee 90% of agents wouldn't cop a non conforming room other than a converted attic.

    A double fronted 3 bed semi? That'll be a 4 bed if you want to call it that.


  • #39
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Allyson Abundant Comma wrote: »
    Note I said the word generally, if a room is of standard ceiling height and you have the obvious safety measures in place, a room is a room. Floor area doesn't matter (think box room, bar attic)

    I guarantee 90% of agents wouldn't cop a non conforming room other than a converted attic.

    A double fronted 3 bed semi? That'll be a 4 bed if you want to call it that.

    I agree. And have stated that in my first posts on page 1 of this thread ;)


  • #40
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    attic would be generally worse as depending on amounts of windows doubt any of them are45cm length and usually have opening that's on sides of the middle so can only open vertically which leaves few maybe 20cm/sq gap, yet somehow its seems ridicilous that ground floor window would be as not safe.


    that aside when conversion was done was there any inspection carried, paperwork issued to terms of how room is classed.


    as do believe agents would have no clue aside taking pictures that make places larger then they are and posting adds.


    try different company as those estimates etc are free from them and see what another has to say, about that, as their main skill set.


  • #41
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scamalert wrote: »
    attic would be generally worse as depending on amounts of windows doubt any of them are45cm length and usually have opening that's on sides of the middle so can only open vertically which leaves few maybe 20cm/sq gap, yet somehow its seems ridicilous that ground floor window would be as not safe.


    that aside when conversion was done was there any inspection carried, paperwork issued to terms of how room is classed.


    as do believe agents would have no clue aside taking pictures that make places larger then they are and posting adds.


    try different company as those estimates etc are free from them and see what another has to say, about that, as their main skill set.

    Attics are different.
    The area of opening remains the same, but with a Velux now, it can be 60mm from the floor, so lower. It also has to be top hung.

    Once the Velux is opened it creates a massive opening to escape onto the roof or be rescued, one the correct window is picked, a 980x780 top hung version would be more than suitable.


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  • #42
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    kceire wrote: »
    Attics are different.
    The area of opening remains the same, but with a Velux now, it can be 60mm from the floor, so lower. It also has to be top hung.

    Once the Velux is opened it creates a massive opening to escape onto the roof or be rescued, one the correct window is picked, a 980x780 top hung version would be more than suitable.
    im not well versed in all the options but do know that in my attic hinges are setup mid frame from both sides, so that leaves tiny gap where head wouldnt fit trought, as they open vertically so any lenght is half. Now wont argue theres different options to those and mine are dunno 10-15 years old.


  • #43
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scamalert wrote: »
    im not well versed in all the options but do know that in my attic hinges are setup mid frame from both sides, so that leaves tiny gap where head wouldnt fit trought, as they open vertically so any lenght is half. Now wont argue theres different options to those and mine are dunno 10-15 years old.

    Sounds like you have centre pivot ones.
    Only one needs to be too hung to aid escape.

    Make sure they don’t swing both ways. Mine are centre pivot and
    Top hung.


  • #44
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    kceire wrote: »
    Only one needs to be too hung to aid escape.
    .

    I would have thought being "too hung" might hinder escape ;)


  • #45
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    yeah both of them centered so windows can open only vertically, but that aisde point as OP situation seems different, so would be more interesting to hear if hes right or not, since room seems fine well at least from the photo.


  • #46
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    I would have thought being "too hung" might hinder escape ;)

    :D


  • #47
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I don't know if it has been mentioned but fire escape requirement would only have come in from 1998 so if the works were before that, an escape window is not required although very much advised.
    If windows had been updated since, they must then comply.


  • #48
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    I bought my house, it was listed as 4 bedrooms(really only 3).

    But one of the listed bedrooms was a dinning room, it had french doors connecting the living room. I knew that was the case from the listing as I was familiar with the houses.

    But the majority of houses that are listed for my estate stay 4 bedrooms and they are the exact same layout.


  • #49
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    mickdw wrote: »
    I don't know if it has been mentioned but fire escape requirement would only have come in from 1998 so if the works were before that, an escape window is not required although very much advised.
    If windows had been updated since, they must then comply.

    1991 no?

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/part_b_1991_-_fire_safety.pdf


  • #50
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    I bought my house, it was listed as 4 bedrooms(really only 3).

    But one of the listed bedrooms was a dinning room, it had french doors connecting the living room. I knew that was the case from the listing as I was familiar with the houses.

    But the majority of houses that are listed for my estate stay 4 bedrooms and they are the exact same layout.

    I wouldn’t class that as a bedroom myself personally. It’s part of the living space and with direct access to the living room, then it would be a nuisance.

    Even if you blocked the double doors, the other door I’m guessing is into the kitchen space and not the entrance hall?


  • #51
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    kceire wrote: »
    I wouldn’t class that as a bedroom myself personally. It’s part of the living space and with direct access to the living room, then it would be a nuisance.

    Even if you blocked the double doors, the other door I’m guessing is into the kitchen space and not the entrance hall?

    I never considered it a bedroom, it's now part of the open plan kitchen/dinning room


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  • #52
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    kceire wrote: »
    1991 no?

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/part_b_1991_-_fire_safety.pdf

    Pretty certain the requirement for escape windows for dwellings only came in for part B 1997 which took effect july 98 even though the document states January 98.


  • #53
    scamalert
    Registered Users Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    some fire safety measures sometime go over the top, was in one office locked with keypad servers other sensitive stuff going on with paperwork, big windows facing to main street that would be way better way out if really needing fast exit. and they wanted to remove the safety lock due the fire safety regs, thou think they let it stay at the end.


    as logically thinking it should be closest possible exit route - even if say window needs to be broken, as to opposite logic if theres fire in corridors etc going all the way and risking harm makes no sense.


    thus why brought in attic example as even thou windows could be wide but depending on roof, and height hardly any safer trying to cling to roof, or risk going into fire, if it would happen.


  • #54
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mickdw wrote: »
    Pretty certain the requirement for escape windows for dwellings only came in for part B 1997 which took effect july 98 even though the document states January 98.

    Tgd b 1991 referred to BS 5588: part 1 1990 for single dwellings.

    This BS does indicate the requirement for openable windows to bedrooms.

    Interestingly more akin to the current requirement, than the one from tgd b 1997


  • #55
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,249 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Tgd b 1991 referred to BS 5588: part 1 1990 for single dwellings.

    This BS does indicate the requirement for openable windows to bedrooms.

    Interestingly more akin to the current requirement, than the one from tgd b 1997

    Yes part B 1991 via BS5588 does refer to something very close to the current standard although if I remember correctly, the key lock was allowable. I've had this discussion before and for.some reason it was broadly agreed that the escape rules were not applied here until the 1997 regs came in. That has certainly been my experience to date seeing what has been installed over varying years but following the wording of the BS as quoted, it would appear that escape openings should have been provided from 1991 so my earlier comments should be discarded.


  • #56
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scamalert wrote: »
    some fire safety measures sometime go over the top, was in one office locked with keypad servers other sensitive stuff going on with paperwork, big windows facing to main street that would be way better way out if really needing fast exit. and they wanted to remove the safety lock due the fire safety regs, thou think they let it stay at the end.


    as logically thinking it should be closest possible exit route - even if say window needs to be broken, as to opposite logic if theres fire in corridors etc going all the way and risking harm makes no sense.


    thus why brought in attic example as even thou windows could be wide but depending on roof, and height hardly any safer trying to cling to roof, or risk going into fire, if it would happen.

    Offices are treated differently again. They don’t require escape/rescue windows as the escape is designed around protected escape routes to the final exit.


  • #57
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,149 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    This has nothing to do with planning or regulations. It has to do with marketing. If a house is advertised as having 5 bedrooms and a viewer comes and sees one bedroom is downstairs they will be pissed off. Equally if it is advertised as 5 bedrooms a potential buyer might pass it over as they want 4 bedrooms only. I agree with the auctioneer. The way to market the house is 4 bedrooms with converted garage.


  • #58
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,915 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with planning or regulations. It has to do with marketing. If a house is advertised as having 5 bedrooms and a viewer comes and sees one bedroom is downstairs they will be pissed off. Equally if it is advertised as 5 bedrooms a potential buyer might pass it over as they want 4 bedrooms only. I agree with the auctioneer. The way to market the house is 4 bedrooms with converted garage.

    What's wrong with a ground floor bedroom.

    There are many positives for having one


  • #59
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,149 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    What's wrong with a ground floor bedroom.

    There are many positives for having one

    There is nothing wrong with it per se but from a marketing point of view it is overselling. Losing some of the potential market is not a good idea.


  • #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with it per se but from a marketing point of view it is overselling. Losing some of the potential market is not a good idea.

    How stupid do you think people are that they can't see a room can be changed to whatever they want? If someone doesn't want the 5th bedroom they can change it to something else, nobody is going to walk away because a room is called a bedroom and they want something else in its place.

    Also going by your logic you are losing the market of people who want 5 bedrooms if you call it 4 bedrooms. Personally I don't think it makes any difference if its called 4 bed or 5 bed people will use the rooms the way they want to regardless. Someone might even use it as a 3 bed and convert one room to an office and another to a gym.


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  • #61
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with planning or regulations. It has to do with marketing. If a house is advertised as having 5 bedrooms and a viewer comes and sees one bedroom is downstairs they will be pissed off. Equally if it is advertised as 5 bedrooms a potential buyer might pass it over as they want 4 bedrooms only. I agree with the auctioneer. The way to market the house is 4 bedrooms with converted garage.

    It has everything to do with the regulations.
    A ground floor bedroom is a very attractive item on a house purchase. It allows for guest privacy, future proofing by way of universal design should you ever require an accessible bedroom. Finglas county council for example, required this approach on a development I was involved with in Hollystown this year.

    Sustainability, universal design and home adaptation are key elements looking long term.

    Anyway, doesn’t every bungalow in the world have their bedrooms on the ground floor :confused:


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