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Morgan Kelly calls for debt forgiveness for struggling mortgage holders

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Comments

  • #92
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    It isn't going to happen even if it is the best idea as it is too complicated a principle to explain . Very evident by the comments here.

    I am not even defending the idea I tried to explain it to people who obviously didn't get it and still don't.

    Your posting style is inappropriately arrogant.
    You are also confusing abhorrence for poor comprehension.


  • #93
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,346 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Your posting style is inappropriately arrogant.
    You are also confusing abhorrence for poor comprehension.
    ROLF

    It is quite clear that people have misunderstood the concept by what they have said. People have misread the idea and put claims against the idea which are simply not true. That is poor comprehension as you have failed to comprehend what I have been saying.
    You have confused quite a lot. You can always ignore me:p


  • #94
    skregs
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    Why not let anyone who can't afford the repayments on their nice house in a good area move into a crap house in a ghost estate?

    Their repayments will be much lower, they get to keep a family home, ghost estates get filled and the taxpayer saves some money, everyone wins.


  • #95
    seligehgit
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭seligehgit


    He's got to be having a laugh.


  • #96
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    You do realise you totally have misunderstood how the costs work if you think this right? Effectively it means devaluing the assets of the banks that aren't worth that anyway

    You might have missed it in my post above but the assets of the banks are the contracts taken out with people who are legally obliged to pay their debt. Primary security on this asset is the property purchased - but it's not the only security. Folk having a legal obligation to repay their loans is another security.

    The assets are worth now precisely what they were worth before - irrespective of the degradation in the value of the primary security.

    The assets can of course, be written off despite their being worth their exact face value. That would involve a burden equalling the writedown being placed on the taxpayer in order to maintain bank liquidity at current levels.

    The problem with your understanding, I think, is a certain fuzziness around terms that have quite precise meanings. You've morphed an asset into the security which undergirds that asset. You are right back at the position of whether the taxpayer should bail out folk in financial trouble.


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  • #97
    dandelion4
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭dandelion4


    ...is tired of people whinging about the possibility of debt forgiveness for genuine struggling families trying to hold onto their family home.. why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations...i paid for this when i took out my mortgage .... look how wrong they got it.... just 3 years into a 35 year mortgage and now being told by an auctioneer that the house which cost €480k may never realise €300k in the lifetime of the mortgage..... and that its current market value c€250-260k


  • #98
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    dandelion4 wrote: »
    ...is tired of people whinging about the possibility of debt forgiveness for genuine struggling families trying to hold onto their family home.. why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations...i paid for this when i took out my mortgage .... look how wrong they got it.... just 3 years into a 35 year mortgage and now being told by an auctioneer that the house which cost €480k may never realise €300k in the lifetime of the mortgage..... and that its current market value c€250-260k
    What were you thinking spending half a million on a house? And why should everyone else pay for your bad decisions?


  • #99
    krissovo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    dandelion4 wrote: »
    ...is tired of people whinging about the possibility of debt forgiveness for genuine struggling families trying to hold onto their family home.. why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations...i paid for this when i took out my mortgage .... look how wrong they got it.... just 3 years into a 35 year mortgage and now being told by an auctioneer that the house which cost €480k may never realise €300k in the lifetime of the mortgage..... and that its current market value c€250-260k

    €480k :eek::eek:

    Let put it this way, if the market went higher and people like me who did not buy during the tiger found ourselves not being able to get on the property ladder would you give up equity to enable us to buy?

    I doubt any one would willingly do this!


  • #100
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    dandelion4 wrote: »
    ...is tired of people whinging about the possibility of debt forgiveness for genuine struggling families trying to hold onto their family home.. why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations...i paid for this when i took out my mortgage .... look how wrong they got it.... just 3 years into a 35 year mortgage and now being told by an auctioneer that the house which cost €480k may never realise €300k in the lifetime of the mortgage..... and that its current market value c€250-260k

    I'm guessing you were born in the 70's or 80's so you've probably seen some form of hardsip in you earlier life.
    Did you not think something was wrong when somebody was offering you just under One Half of One Million Euros just for signing a piece of paper?
    I'll say that again. One Half of a Million Euros.
    Take some responsilbility for your own actions and deal with it.


  • #101
    Spiritofthekop
    Registered Users Posts: 436 ✭✭Spiritofthekop


    krissovo wrote: »
    €480k :eek::eek:

    Let put it this way, if the market went higher and people like me who did not buy during the tiger found ourselves not being able to get on the property ladder would you give up equity to enable us to buy?

    I doubt any one would willingly do this!

    Exactly!

    Not in a million years would you get any help......in fact they would laugh at you for renting!

    Half a million!!.......and you want people to feel sorry & pay for your house.

    NO CHANCE!


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  • #102
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    In fairness, his point is that he paid for a property valuer to place a value on his property before he bought it. That professional valuer that he hired valued it at €480k, and he then followed that advice and took out a mortgage to cover this amount.

    He's trying to point out that no emphasis has been put on the valuers. But all his got in response is the usual high horse hindsight 20/20 lark for this forum :rolleyes:

    Spiritofthekop wrote: »
    ..in fact they would laugh at you for renting!

    No one in this universe has ever seemed as smug to me as some Irish people are now at their colleagues that bought their homes pre-2007/08.

    (and I rent by the way)


  • #103
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    nm wrote: »
    In fairness, his point is that he paid for a property valuer to place a value on his property before he bought it. That professional valuer that he hired valued it at €480k, and he then followed that advice and took out a mortgage to cover this amount.

    He's trying to point out that no emphasis has been put on the valuers. But all his got in response is the usual high horse hindsight 20/20 lark for this forum :rolleyes:
    No one in this universe has ever seemed as smug to me as some Irish people are now at their colleagues that bought their homes pre-2007/08.

    (and I rent by the way)

    Hold your horses there horsebox.
    The professional valuers, valued homes at the potential price that the home could realise at that given point.
    Those values were probably fairly accurate for the most part at that time given the sheer access to credit.
    They are not economists expected to predict future market values.


  • #104
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    nm wrote: »
    In fairness, his point is that he paid for a property valuer to place a value on his property before he bought it. That professional valuer that he hired valued it at €480k, and he then followed that advice and took out a mortgage to cover this amount.

    He's trying to point out that no emphasis has been put on the valuers. But all his got in response is the usual high horse hindsight 20/20 lark for this forum :rolleyes:




    No one in this universe has ever seemed as smug to me as some Irish people are now at their colleagues that bought their homes pre-2007/08.

    (and I rent by the way)

    He'd only have a case if similar houses weren't going for 480 at roughly the same time.

    If the valuer had said 'This house is valued at 150 grand considering historical facts' and yet similar houses were selling for 480, the valuer would be wrong to undervalue the house. At the time. It's like stocks, value may go down as well as up, but at the current market, that was its worth.


  • #105
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    You're quoting me but remember this was dandelion4's post so direct to him, I was just pointing out that in the four replies littered with exclamation marks and the usual high horse-ness no one had even addressed his actual point.


  • #106
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    He didn't have an actual point to address.
    He is looking for someone to blame and has decided that professional valuers should be economists too.


  • #107
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    nm wrote: »
    You're quoting me but remember this was dandelion4's post so direct to him, I was just pointing out that in the four replies littered with exclamation marks and the usual high horse-ness no one had even addressed his actual point.
    Yeah I think you're the only one who saw that point.


  • #108
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    If he has a problem with the valuation, sue the valuer. It's not the taxpayers fault and it's not for us to pay compensation.


  • #109
    silly houseowner
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭silly houseowner


    hmmm wrote: »
    If he has a problem with the valuation, sue the valuer. It's not the taxpayers fault and it's not for us to pay compensation.
    and then we can bailout the valuers. its gettin a bit like the late late show sure lets have a bailout for every1 in the audience:D


  • #110
    djmcr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 237 ✭✭djmcr


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Hold your horses there horsebox.
    The professional valuers, valued homes at the potential price that the home could realise at that given point.
    Those values were probably fairly accurate for the most part at that time given the sheer access to credit.
    They are not economists expected to predict future market values.

    And weren't these valuers correct as the poster paid that for the house


  • #111
    SouperComputer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭SouperComputer


    Debt forgiveness?!? Call Strutter direct, they'll sort it out!


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  • #112
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Yeah I think you're the only one who saw that point.

    Forgive me for actually reading the post, and not leaping out of my chair and bashing the keyboard off the desk at the price he happened to mention he paid for a home 3 years ago.
    I'm off the wall alright.


  • #113
    sharper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    nm wrote: »
    Forgive me for actually reading the post, and not leaping out of my chair and bashing the keyboard off the desk at the price he happened to mention he paid for a home 3 years ago.
    I'm off the wall alright.
    His actual point appears to be "why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations..."

    Property valuers value property on the day. If you buy it and it falls in value later it's nothing to with them.

    He "just happened" to mention paying a lot of money for a house in a thread where people are expecting their mortgages to be paid for them. The poster in question apparently believes the valuers are responsible and not himself.


  • #114
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    sharper wrote: »
    His actual point appears to be "why isn't there more talk about property valuers and property valuations..."

    Property valuers value property on the day. If you buy it and it falls in value later it's nothing to with them.

    He "just happened" to mention paying a lot of money for a house in a thread where people are expecting their mortgages to be paid for them. The poster in question apparently believes the valuers are responsible and not himself.

    Fair enough


  • #115
    silly houseowner
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭silly houseowner


    Zamboni wrote: »
    Hold your horses there horsebox.
    The professional valuers, valued homes at the potential price that the home could realise at that given point.
    Those values were probably fairly accurate for the most part at that time given the sheer access to credit.
    They are not economists expected to predict future market values.
    fair enough blaming the valuers is clutching at straws a bit but you suggest their not economists expected to predict the future, would you not say the same about the people who bought cause all they seem to be getting is oh they should have known better


  • #116
    JohnnyTodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭JohnnyTodd


    sharper wrote: »
    Nope. People took out mortgages they couldn't afford and the world wide economy tanked. Not so different after all. We're dealing with multiple problems simultaneously, you can't simply organise such that one is a direct result of the other.

    People took out 35 year mortgages handing over 40-50% of their joint income with partners for 1 bedroom apartments. This was completely and utter madness and totally unaffordable by any metric.

    They did this because property always goes up in value. They did it because rent is "dead money". They did it because if they didn't buy now they were afraid they'd never be able to afford a one bedroom apartment.

    They also did it because they didn't expect to actually live in that 1 bedroom apartment. They bought into the idea of a "starter home" where you bizarrely buy a property you only plan to live in for a few years.



    Then you don't know what begrudging is so you should stop using it.

    It's "a suggestion to save the economy" which transfers wealth and money to a chunk of the population purely because they acted irrationality. It rewards that irrationality with properties they couldn't and can't afford. People who acted rationally are left without property and with the bill for the others.






    Mmmhmmm.



    The world works a certain way. The ways in which doesn't work are endless. One of the ways it doesn't work is when people that act without regard for consequence are protected from those consequences by those that did. You simply increase the population of people acting without consequence, you make irrationality a rational choice.

    I note that again you have completely failed to defend the proposal. Instead you've declared it's necessary and should be done regardless of whether it's a good idea and that anyone in opposition to this is a "begrudger".

    This is precisely the sort of irrational and hard headed approach that got us into this mess in the first place. I suggest you read the Housing Bubble Bursting and see what people were saying at the time. You know, stuff like

    That Housing bubble bursting quote is brilliant!


  • #117
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    silly houseowner wrote: »
    fair enough blaming the valuers is clutching at straws a bit but you suggest their not economists expected to predict the future, would you not say the same about the people who bought cause all they seem to be getting is oh they should have known better

    The value of your investment may go up as well as down.
    It is not that difficult to comprehend.
    I know a valuer who priced a two bedroom apartment on Ormond Quay in 1997 at sixty nine thousand pound.
    I don't remember the proprietor complaining when it was sold for €315,000 in 2004.


  • #118
    silly houseowner
    Registered Users Posts: 16 ✭silly houseowner


    Zamboni wrote: »
    The value of your investment may go up as well as down.
    It is not that difficult to comprehend.
    I know a valuer who priced a two bedroom apartment on Ormond Quay in 1997 at sixty nine thousand pound.
    I don't remember the proprietor complaining when it was sold for €315,000 in 2004.
    and as pointed out by many people no one is suggesting help for investments as you call it ,but for those who bought for their princible private residence not to make money but to put a roof over there familys head ,is that so difficult to comrehend.


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