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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forw
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I was looking at comments on YouTube from reaction video (yes I know mostly a cessout) one was great
Bran: knows everything does nothing.
Jon: knows nothing does everything0 -
Stop moaning ffs wrote: »Well he. An see everywhere in real time.
Loads in fact I don’t know how many but loads of the noble houses have been wiped out and the kingdoms need to be rebuilt and restored.
No better man.
Unless the surviving houses get greedy and power hungry but that was usually a Lannister thing and there wiped out.
Who gets their castle? Who was minding the tarlys? Sam didn’t go home and claim lordship. Democracy and life will just trundle along on those cases.
Tyrion should get Casterly Rock I would assume, being the last surviving child of Tywin, although we don't know how many other Lannisters are actually alive to make claim, the show omits a few the books mentioned.
For the Tarly's, I presume his mother looked after the place til Sam popped home, although he still wouldn't be Lord Tarly if he's a Maester now, and that's not even mentioning the Nights Watch.
For the other surviving houses, most of the bigger ones, or the ones that weren't decimated at least, are either related to, or friendly with the Starks, so they'd have a nice bit of backing should one of the less friendly houses rise up; Greyjoys etc.0 -
pah wrote:There's also a subsection of people who like to generally accuse others of butthurt but offer nothing else themselves
But there has been an offering. Where it's more likely to be discussed and criticized effectively with maturity. The rage train continues.0 -
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Regarding the unsullied and the dothraki numbers I wonder if she left some on Dragonstone.0
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Regarding the unsullied and the dothraki numbers I wonder if she left some on Dragonstone.
I'm not sure why people feel the numbers for them changed between episode 5 and 6, there were loads in episode 5. The major potential inconsistency is post Battle of Winterfell and even then it wasn't that they 'forgot' about them, they were limited by the size of the set.
From the complaints you'd again swear the show was always consistent with claims of army sizes and what they showed on camera as it suited them and that this is some brand new terrible problem. Most of season 1 is littered with terrible efforts to try to show the scale of armies. There are understandable excuses for it then and there are excuses for it now.0 -
I've made a huge mistake. There is so much subtle depth to season 8, for example Bron reveals that the best brothels have burnt down, meaning the mid-market brothels are likely to get a significant economic boost in the short term. The audience is left to wonder and theorise in classic Thrones style how the master of coin's economic policies will affect the mid-market segment in the mid to long term.
Also Drogon appears behind Dany to give her the appearance of having dragon wings. This is a subtle reference to her Targaryen heritage and her status as "mother of dragons". I may have missed some others, please help me out.0 -
youreadthat wrote: »I've made a huge mistake. There is so much subtle depth to season 8, for example Bron reveals that the best brothels have burnt down, meaning the mid-market brothels are likely to get a significant economic boost in the short term. The audience is left to wonder and theorise in classic Thrones style how the master of coin's economic policies will affect the mid-market segment in the mid to long term.
Also Drogon appears behind Dany to give her the appearance of having dragon wings. This is a subtle reference to her Targaryen heritage and her status as "mother of dragons". I may have missed some others, please help me out.
Not everything needs to be dripping in layers of themes and subtext etc.
Don't care if it was style over substance, that shot was gorgeous.0 -
I enjoyed the first half of the last episode with its rightfully sombre and meloncoly tone. The scene with Jon and Dany was very well done.
After that.. Very weak in every aspect. Story and character arcs for 8 seasons were not taken into consideration.
Weren't the Night king and Bran meant to be interchangeably linked? Not a mention
The council meeting bit where Bron, the cut purse/turn coat is Finance minister is embarrassing and not funny
A complete bottle job.0 -
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The major potential inconsistency is post Battle of Winterfell and even then it wasn't that they 'forgot' about them, they were limited by the size of the set.
The major inconsistency is that, as far as the viewer can see, the entire group of Dothraki rode out to their death at Winterfell. There were..what...a dozen stragglers that made it back, one of which was Jorah.
There wasn't any suggestion made, either earlier, when battle plans were discussed, or at the time of the charge itself, that this wasn't the entirety of the Dothraki.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to say 'hang on a second, they were completely wiped out at the battle of Winterfell'. In fact, I think it's unreasonable to suggest anything else, considering the sweeping scenes of the their charge and twinkling lights of their death.0 -
The major inconsistency is that, as far as the viewer can see, the entire group of Dothraki rode out to their death at Winterfell. There were..what...a dozen stragglers that made it back, one of which was Jorah.
There wasn't any suggestion made, either earlier, when battle plans were discussed, or at the time of the charge itself, that this wasn't the entirety of the Dothraki.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to say 'hang on a second, they were completely wiped out at the battle of Winterfell'. In fact, I think it's unreasonable to suggest anything else, considering the sweeping scenes of the their charge and twinkling lights of their death.
The logic behind this was "lol, Disney are going to pay us to make 3 movies worth of of Star Wars twaddle. Who cares what makes sense?
There were 100,000 dothraki and 150,000 got killed in this charge. Who cares? How many episodes are left? When do we get paid for this nonsense?"0 -
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The major inconsistency is that, as far as the viewer can see, the entire group of Dothraki rode out to their death at Winterfell. There were..what...a dozen stragglers that made it back, one of which was Jorah.
There wasn't any suggestion made, either earlier, when battle plans were discussed, or at the time of the charge itself, that this wasn't the entirety of the Dothraki.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to say 'hang on a second, they were completely wiped out at the battle of Winterfell'. In fact, I think it's unreasonable to suggest anything else, considering the sweeping scenes of the their charge and twinkling lights of their death.
Or that they ran off in a different direction (like another fluffy character that not many seemed not to complain about reappearing). They could/should have dropped a line in to give themselves some kind of cover for it.
Having said that I have I never disagreed that it wasn’t a major inconsistency, more that it was a problem that they couldn’t really get around based on the size of the set. They simply couldn’t fit hundreds of Dothraki coming back into the Winterfell set, as they couldn’t even really show the Unsullied/Northmen that retreated in greater numbers (instead focusing on the main characters).
Again, this has been an issue with the show from day 1, army sizes have always been consistently inconsistent. This and other similar constant issues within the show have suddenly become major problems that people just cant get over.0 -
I've no issue with army sizes. They're a bitch to portray in cinema anyway. Humans can't count. A thousand, could be ten thousand, a million, it all looks more or the same to us perception wise.
Even an army that suffers heavy loses still has lots of soldiers left. So even if the army went from 10,000 to 1,000 it's really hard for us to tell the difference.
10,000 to 5,000 is significantly harder again. Not without tedious comparisons to previously established scales.
Considering the show teleports armies like trek and forgets entirely about logistics and supply the count of troops is sadly another place where we just have experience the spectacle and suspend our disbelief.0 -
Every single flaming blade was extinguished. Every one. It was brilliantly filmed, the way it happened.Or that they ran off in a different direction (like another fluffy character that not many seemed not to complain about reappearing).
Look, it's all just a personal question of how much, or in what way, each viewer can suspend their disbelief. This is something that went too far for me to accept.Others might be able to accept it. So be it. I'm sure there is stuff that I can accept that bothers them too. (The trip beyond the wall to capture a wight didn't bother me anywhere near as much as it obviously bothered others).
I just think it was just poor, lazy planning/writing, and symptomatic of writers who didn't really think things through enough, or put themselves in the viewer's position enough.
A huge number of viewers have thought "WTF, didn't all the Dothraki die at Winterfell?" I actually find it hard to believe that the writers didn't consider that viewers (very many of them anyway) would be asking that question.
EDIT: And the widely-held perception of lazy writing wassn't helped at all by the now infamous "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" comment, which showed just how little the writers cared about proper plotting which would justify things to the viewers.
I agree with this for sure. It would have taken one line in an earlier episode about how they are leaving a thousand Dothraki behind to protect Dragonstone, and it explains two things. Firstly, why there are Dothraki left after Winterfell, and secondly, why Dragonstone wasn't taken over in their absence. Literally one line, and they either never thought deeply enough about plot holes to realise that line would help answer viewer questions, or else they didn't bother with it.They could/should have dropped a line in to give themselves some kind of cover for it.0 -
Every single flaming blade was extinguished. Every one. It was brilliantly filmed, the way it happened.
Look, it's all just a personal question of how much, or in what way, each viewer can suspend their disbelief. This is something that went too far for me to accept.Others might be able to accept it. So be it. I'm sure there is stuff that I can accept that bothers them too. (The trip beyond the wall to capture a wight didn't bother me anywhere near as much as it obviously bothered others).
I just think it was just poor, lazy planning/writing, and symptomatic of writers who didn't really think things through enough, or put themselves in the viewer's position enough.
A huge number of viewers have thought "WTF, didn't all the Dothraki die at Winterfell?" I actually find it hard to believe that the writers didn't consider that viewers (very many of them anyway) would be asking that question.
The problem I have is when people are completely hypocritical about their suspension of disbelief. They come out with extremely hyperbolic stuff about the final season, like bolded in your post, while many of the same issues riddle the show since the first season and are ignored. I understand tastes and opinions change but the swing is crazy to me. I’m not surprised the writers thought they’d get away with things that fans were fine with throughout other seasons, but clearly should have taken into account how toxic fanbases become when they’re disappointed and did more to cover themselves better.EDIT: And the widely-held perception of lazy writing wassn't helped at all by the now infamous "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet" comment, which showed just how little the writers cared about proper plotting which would justify things to the viewers.
The amount that people have latched onto and seem driven crazy by this throw away soundbite say it all.I agree with this for sure. It would have taken one line in an earlier episode about how they are leaving a thousand Dothraki behind to protect Dragonstone, and it explains two things. Firstly, why there are Dothraki left after Winterfell, and secondly, why Dragonstone wasn't taken over in their absence. Literally one line, and they either never thought deeply enough about plot holes to realise that line would help answer viewer questions, or else they didn't bother with it.
Where were these same people that are complaining now when Dragonstone was empty at the start of season 7?
To me it is perfectly understandable that Dragonstone wasn’t taken after either Stannis or Dany left, as though easy to take while vacant the forces required to hold it were not worth the little to no strategic value it provided.0 -
No one is claiming that previous seasons were perfect and entirely free from some conveniences and some elements of inconsistency. It's a TV show, those are inevitable. Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, all have them, but they're subtle, or generally acceptable within the confines of it being a TV show.
The difference is that S8 is absolutely riddled with glaring, blatant inconsistencies, terrible pacing and bad dialogue from start to finish of E3-6. The first two episodes are pretty much fine. The last 4 are incredibly sub-par from a script-writing POV and astoundingly poor considering Benioff and Wiess have previously written brilliant episodes free from GRRM's guiding material.
I mean, the original Star Wars trilogy has some hammy dialogue, inconsistencies, weak acting, and all the rest. The Star Wars prequel Trilogy has all those things too, but indisputably times tenfold.
Would you claim that people are hypocritical for criticising those things in the prequel trilogy, simply because some instances - but far, far less - existed in the original trilogy?
I doubt it, but for some reason this is the logic that's being applied to S8 of GoT, and previous seasons (particularly S1-6).
There is no 'swing'. The only 'swing' is the significant swing in quality in S8. It's that simple. This utter nonsense of blaming it on 'toxic fans' and 'hypocrites' is getting a bit pathetic at this point. Some people care deeply about these things, some don't care at all, or care far less - hence the mixed reaction to the season, and the fact it's the lowest rated in the franchise by a large margin, both critically and user wise.
This notion that Game of Thrones should be beyond criticism is equally as pitiful at this stage. Fans are polarized on the season because it's the worst and laziest season of GOT to date. Because it's rushed, lazy, has two dimensional dialogue, almost zero intelligence about it, characters reduced to whispers of their former selves, with huge spectacle being it's only saving grace. Critics are almost universal in agreement that it was a weak season.
Constantly seeing this "I'm fine with genuine criticism but not this hateful/toxic/hypocritical/illogical criticism".
Genuine, well argued, logical and entirely rational criticism comes along....and it's still dismissed as being in the above categories.
Some people seem to think that because it has jaw-dropping visuals and scale that sets a new bar far beyond anything we've seen on TV before, that's enough to make it brilliant.
And it is visually brilliant. Astounding, even. That doesn't change the fact that it's a lazy, poorly written season and way below reasonable expectations of far better.
If you thought it was brilliant, great. I'm glad. Many people did. That's grand. I'm not going to attempt to argue that they're wrong. But please stop with this "It's the fans who are wrong" angle.
If Game of Thrones had this quality of scripting and dialogue in S1, back when it was a dialogue driven, intricate and finely-crafted political drama with astounding attention to detail, all set against a fantasy backdrop.... we would never have seen a S2.0 -
TerrorFirmer wrote: »No one is claiming that previous seasons were perfect and entirely free from some conveniences and some elements of inconsistency. It's a TV show, those are inevitable. Sopranos, Breaking Bad, The Wire, all have them, but they're subtle, or generally acceptable within the confines of it being a TV show.
The difference is that S8 is absolutely riddled with glaring, blatant inconsistencies, terrible pacing and bad dialogue from start to finish of E3-6. The first two episodes are pretty much fine. The last 4 are incredibly sub-par from a script-writing POV and astoundingly poor considering Benioff and Wiess have previously written brilliant episodes free from GRRM's guiding material.
If this is the problem posters have they should state it rather than targeting single scenes (many times without merit), which is my issue.I mean, the original Star Wars trilogy has some hammy dialogue, inconsistencies, weak acting, and all the rest. The Star Wars prequel Trilogy has all those things too, but indisputably times tenfold.
Would you claim that people are hypocritical for criticising those things in the prequel trilogy, simply because some instances - but far, far less - existed in the original trilogy?
I doubt it, but for some reason this is the logic that's being applied to S8 of GoT, and previous seasons (particularly S1-6).
I have the same issue with some posters in the Star Wars thread when discussing TLJ. Some very valid criticism and then a bunch of folk who look at the OT through rose tinted glasses and a narrative they've made up in their head that the movies could never contend with #notmylukeThere is no 'swing'. The only 'swing' is the significant swing in quality in S8. It's that simple. This utter nonsense of blaming it on 'toxic fans' and 'hypocrites' is getting a bit pathetic at this point.
There is a complete swing, when in prior seasons the same issues are ignored and this season hyperbolic 'everything is the worst thing I've ever seen'.Some people care deeply about these things, some don't care at all, or care far less - hence the mixed reaction to the season, and the fact it's the lowest rated in the franchise by a large margin, both critically and user wise.
This is true but I'd also contend that there are some people who went in with outlandish expectations for what the final season would be and others who saw the quality of the show falling over the last few seasons (and books) and realised that to close off the story in 6 episodes it was going to move at a quicker pace.This notion that Game of Thrones should be beyond criticism is equally as pitiful at this stage. Fans are polarized on the season because it's the worst and laziest season of GOT to date. Because it's rushed, lazy, has two dimensional dialogue, almost zero intelligence about it, characters reduced to whispers of their former selves, with huge spectacle being it's only saving grace. Critics are almost universal in agreement that it was a weak season.
That is a complete straw man, I don't think there is anyone saying that it is beyond criticism.Constantly seeing this "I'm fine with genuine criticism but not this hateful/toxic/hypocritical/illogical criticism".
Genuine, well argued, logical and entirely rational criticism comes along....and it's still dismissed as being in the above categories.
I've had no problem discussing the bolded and have agreed with a lot of it but this crying over one off situations, the likes of army size changes, character travel times, and coincidental run ins, doesn't fall into those.Some people seem to think that because it has jaw-dropping visuals and scale that sets a new bar far beyond anything we've seen on TV before, that's enough to make it brilliant.
And it is visually brilliant. Astounding, even. That doesn't change the fact that it's a lazy, poorly written season and way below reasonable expectations of far better.
If you thought it was brilliant, great. I'm glad. Many people did. That's grand. I'm not going to attempt to argue that they're wrong. But please stop with this "It's the fans who are wrong" angle.
It is easy to get on your high horse and claim that when these posters you disagree with aren't littering the thread saying 'the season was fantastic' and then attempting to justify themselves by flimsily pointing to the one scene that you feel didn't really make sense (eg Bran becoming King). No matter how much a criticism is 'Genuine, well argued, logical and entirely rational' it isn't supported with absolute garbage.If Game of Thrones had this quality of scripting and dialogue in S1, back when it was a dialogue driven, intricate and finely-crafted political drama with astounding attention to detail, all set against a fantasy backdrop.... we would never have seen a S2.
And I contend that if they maintained the above at the same quality as S1 then we'd be left with the show never finishing, like the book readers. If you were going into S8 expecting/grading against S1, I'm a) not sure what show you've been watching in the intervening period and b) not surprised by your disappointment0 -
The problem I have is when people are completely hypocritical about their suspension of disbelief. They come out with extremely hyperbolic stuff about the final season, like bolded in your post, while many of the same issues riddle the show since the first season and are ignored. I understand tastes and opinions change but the swing is crazy to me. I’m not surprised the writers thought they’d get away with things that fans were fine with throughout other seasons, but clearly should have taken into account how toxic fanbases become when they’re disappointed and did more to cover themselves better.
The amount that people have latched onto and seem driven crazy by this throw away soundbite say it all.
Where were these same people that are complaining now when Dragonstone was empty at the start of season 7?
To me it is perfectly understandable that Dragonstone wasn’t taken after either Stannis or Dany left, as though easy to take while vacant the forces required to hold it were not worth the little to no strategic value it provided.
Look, you obviously think that the kind of, or level of, inconsistency isn't all that different from previous seasons, so you wonder why it has suddenly become an issue.
I think those inconsistencies are much worse than previous seasons, so the criticism seems fair to me.
We just see it differently, and I'll leave it at that.0 -
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Look, you obviously think that the kind of, or level of, inconsistency isn't all that different from previous seasons, so you wonder why it has suddenly become an issue.
I think those inconsistencies are much worse than previous seasons, so the criticism seems fair to me.
We just see it differently, and I'll leave it at that.
That’s not really what I think at all, but your claim is in line with the continuous straw manning I’m seeing here from those critical of the season and can’t take others questioning their posts.- I can both accept that there was an increase in the ‘inconsistency’ this season while also calling out posters for nitpicking specific scenes and acting like they are some sort of outrageous new thing to the show.
- I can both feel this season (and recent seasons) were much more rushed than earlier ones while also questioning how certain posters believe the show could ever finish if they kept the same pace as season 1.
- I can both have wanted more work to be put into certain character decisions while disagreeing with posters that claimed ‘it made no sense’.
- I can both feel the season didn’t quite meet my expectations while taking issue with the complete hyperbolic outrage from some posters that looked to have a complete nervous breakdown that their expectation wasn’t met that the show was going to close out the Night King and Iron Throne storylines in 6 episode while having season 1 pacing.
- I can both feel that this season was weaker than previous while finding it ludicrous that some posters accepted that the quality of the show has declined over recent season but still continue to point to critic/user websites to support themselves, when these same sites rate season 7 higher than season 1 and the same or close to the other early seasons.
Opinions don’t have to be all black or white and me pushing back on certain poster’s hyperbole or nitpicking isn’t saying the show is beyond criticism.0 - I can both accept that there was an increase in the ‘inconsistency’ this season while also calling out posters for nitpicking specific scenes and acting like they are some sort of outrageous new thing to the show.
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