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National Broadband Plan or Starlink

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    #32
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,615 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    NewClareman wrote: »
    For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.


    Why would I be irked???

    No idea. It's Saturday though that's good !


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    #33
    Gooey Looey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Gooey Looey


    NewClareman wrote: »
    For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.

    And also for reliability, fibre doesn't suffer from rain fade!


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    #34
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    NewClareman wrote: »
    For high-bandwidth to the home, fibre is currently the gold standard.
    Currently and for the foreseeable future. Fibre has been on the way for decades and there is nothing on the horizon that will replace it. So, it is reasonable to presume that this won't change for decades to come.


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    #35
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Gooey Looey wrote: »
    And also for reliability, fibre doesn't suffer from rain fade!
    That's one of many reasons why it is the gold standard. :)
    plodder wrote: »
    Currently and for the foreseeable future. Fibre has been on the way for decades and there is nothing on the horizon that will replace it. So, it is reasonable to presume that this won't change for decades to come.

    Free Space Optics (FSO) and Visible Light Communication (VLC) could displace fibre, in many areas. The most advanced work that I am aware of (apart from Starlink inter-satellite links) is for mobile 4G/5G front-haul/back-haul. Commercially available systems offer data rates of 2.5Gb/s while rates as high as 160 Gb/s have been reported. There is ongoing work in the area of atmospheric attenuation and rain fade margins. The research referenced is one of many.

    Yeah, I know that the speeds that are being targeted in early deployments, in the order of 10Gb/s, fall well short of the capabilities of fibre. However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband. Follow the money, the FSO market is expected to be worth over €2 billion in 2027. In my opinion, that value is a substantial undervaluation.


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    #36
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Free Space Optics (FSO) and Visible Light Communication (VLC) could displace fibre, in many areas.
    What percentage of the FTTH that has been or will be deployed over the next five years do you think will be displaced by those technologies?


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    #37
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,164 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    NewClareman wrote: »
    However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband to the few.

    Corrections mine.


    People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. They aren't. Apples and oranges. If you have 500k rural hard to serve addresses 490k+ of them will be served by ground based systems. The last 10k being heavily heavily subsidised.
    The families will get the internet for free. Ector County Independent School District (ECISD) is paying SpaceX $300,000 per year, with $150,000 of that coming from a nonprofit.

    45 homes.
    300K USD per year.

    Thats $555 USD per connection per month. For maybe 100Mb, inconsistent. Does it make sense for the oil rig or the observatory atop a mountain? Sure thing. Does it make sense for residential service? F'ck no.

    Don't get me wrong, its cool tech, Musk getting in on it is a signal, Bezos following says a lot. But it'll only ever be a tiny fraction of a percentage of residential connections.


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    #38
    celtic_oz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    listermint wrote: »
    Don't act like a moderator.

    You aren't one. I'm entirely on topic.

    Ha, listen to the politeness enforcer

    If you READ the op it is quite reasonable that someone with a sh1ty 0.5mbs connection could be rescued by starlink for a couple of years before the NBP connects them up.


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    #39
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    ED E wrote: »
    Originally Posted by NewClareman
    However, they are sufficient to allow the rollout of quality high speed broadband to the few.
    Corrections mine.

    People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. ...
    Rather than correcting my posts, I suggest you read all the posts, to understand the context.
    Free Space Optics (FSO) has the potential to replace fibre, in many terrestrial-based applications. One of the areas being targeted is to replace/augment fibre when connecting cell towers to the backbone. If this work is successful, it would dramatically recuce the cost of 5G infrastructure, allowing far greater density of cells. This would allow decent broadband service, over 5G, with far less contention. Unlike Starlink, this would transform mobile networks for everyone. Will it happen? I don't know. However, the scientists involved are at the top of their game, so I'd be slow to bet against them.
    ED E wrote: »
    People keep putting LEOs in the same ballpark as NBP/NBN etc. They aren't. Apples and oranges. If you have 500k rural hard to serve addresses 490k+ of them will be served by ground based systems. The last 10k being heavily heavily subsidised.

    Nobody on this thread is suggesting that Starlink is an alternative to fibre, to provide service to the majority of NBP plan customers. It will be many years, if ever, before satellite systems will be used for data intensive applications, for everyone within coverage. The bandwidth required is simply too great. Could Starlink be used to reduce implementation costs for long tail NBP customers? That really depends on the Starlink rollout and performance. If that stands up, then hell, yeah. I'm working on the basis that such customers would have their service subsidised. On a similar basis, it could be an option to provide service on an interim basis, as suggested by the op.


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    #40
    Gooey Looey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Gooey Looey


    A lot of ifs and buts!


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    #41
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Gooey Looey wrote: »
    A lot of ifs and buts!

    That's the nature of breaking new ground, whether a new vaccine, or new technology. There is never any certainty - otherwise research would be unnecessary.


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    #42
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    At $500 or its Irish equivalent plus VAT and shipping costs, the equipment cost is very high as an interim solution for the domestic Irish market and will probably be prohibitive.

    I mentioned in another thread that a family member had to go the satellite route mid year for WFH.

    The ViaSat equipment could be purchased for €180 +VAT or rented for €15 +VAT.
    Installation was €116 +VAT plus connection fee of €49.90 +VAT.

    The $500 Starlink cost is a self-install cost I believe, so a professional install will cost an addition €130-€150 I assume. Connection fee?

    European deployment won't happen until at least H2 2021 after the ETSI completes the necessary regulatory approval.

    Gets expensive for an interim 1-3 year solution.


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    #43
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    The Cush wrote: »

    ...Gets expensive for an interim 1-3 year solution.

    Yeah, it's looking expensive alright. :)


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    #44
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    I'm shocked at the price people in the States are paying for crap internet speeds, no wonder Starlink is seen as their only decent option.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jkdb4s/thoughts_on_price/

    If this comment is in any way a prediction of their future plans the NBP is safe from Starlink
    It still remains to be seen what the actual unit cost on the terminals will be.

    As this is a beta phase, the $500 may be selling them at a loss. As little as a year ago, SpaceX themselves had serious concerns about trying to get the unit cost below $1000.


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    #45
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    plodder wrote: »
    What percentage of the FTTH that has been or will be deployed over the next five years do you think will be displaced by those technologies?
    So, anyway I think the number will be, or be very close to, zero. As regards replacing fibre back haul, I suppose the wireless industry has to talk up any technology that could potentially do that, but there's a huge difference between using lasers in space where there is no atmosphere, obstacles or weather to get in the way, as compared with on the ground. So I'll believe it when I see it.


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    #46
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    The Cush wrote: »
    I'm shocked at the price people in the States are paying for crap internet speeds, no wonder Starlink is seen as their only decent option.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/jkdb4s/thoughts_on_price/

    If this comment is in any way a prediction of their future plans the NBP is safe from Starlink

    It really depends on the cost of the last mile, for houses in remote areas. I suspect it would be more cost effective to use Starlink, and subsidise the consumer cost.
    Whether that will happen is another matter. There are too many vested interests in the status quo. Not least ComReg, and their consultants, who wouldn't want their current approach held up to scrutiny.


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    #47
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED has been registered with the CRO
    Number 677409

    Name STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED

    Address 5TH FLOOR, BEAUX LANE HOUSE
    MERCER STREET LOWER
    DUBLIN 2
    IRELAND
    D02DH60

    Registered 08/09/2020

    Related, Tibro- https://www.reddit.com/r/Starlink/comments/j8b6bn/starlink_australia_came_out_of_stealth_mode_after/
    Parent Country UNITED STATES

    Number 909165

    Name TIBRO CORP

    Address 5TH FLOOR,
    BEAUX LANE HOUSE,
    MERCER STREET LOWER,
    DUBLIN 2
    D02DH60

    Registered 13/03/2019


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    #48
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    The Cush wrote: »
    STARLINK INTERNET SERVICES LIMITED has been registered with the CRO

    SpaceX is joining forces with Microsoft to form Azure Space. As Ireland is a hub for Microsoft cloud services in Europe, we can expect a Starlink earth station here, sooner rather than later.


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    #49
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Probably launder the profits through our corporate tax system on 0.1% tax or whatever too, setup their European headquarters in Dublin, also Ireland would be closer to North America by Fibre to shave a few milliseconds off the ping also. If Starlink can be hand for €70 per month or less I would get it until the NBP arrives once I saw some real world test figures.


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    #50
    celtic_oz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    theguzman wrote: »
    If Starlink can be hand for €70 per month or less I would get it until the NBP arrives once I saw some real world test figures.

    Are you off to the congo or maybe camping until the NBP arrives :D;)


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    #51
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    theguzman wrote: »
    ...Ireland would be closer to North America by Fibre to shave a few milliseconds off the ping also.

    Why would this be the case???


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    #52
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I don't know how comfortable I am with this endeavor that will vandalise the night sky for centuries to come


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    #53
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    Starlink expects to start rolling out in Europe early in 2021.


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    #54
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    NewClareman wrote: »
    Starlink expects to start rolling out in Europe early in 2021.

    Can they roll out before ETSI approval to deploy their user equipment in Europe?


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    #55
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I don't know how comfortable I am with this endeavor that will vandalise the night sky for centuries to come

    As well as SpaceX you have other large constellations planned such as OneWeb, Kuiper (Amazon) and a recently filed application by a new Chinese company named GW for almost 13,000 satellites.

    With these and the other smaller constellations operating in the medium and low earth orbits, this section of space is going to get quiet cluttered.

    Latest news, NASA Makes a Surprise Statement, Calling Out Private Space Start-up for Big Risks
    It’s the first time NASA has publicly opposed a private company’s plan to build a satellite constellation, because AST’s proposed altitude, 466 miles (720 kilometers) above Earth, lies near NASA’s “A-Train” satellites, a group of 10 Earth-observing satellites operated by the space agency and the U.S. Geological Survey.


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    #56
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    The Cush wrote: »
    Can they roll out before ETSI approval to deploy their user equipment in Europe?

    When I worked in the Industry there was a hierarchy of telecommunications standards (ITU/worldwide, ETSI/Europe, NSAI/National). Generally ETSI and the ITU worked hand in glove, with standards often being identical. In this case I would expect that there will be a common worldwide standard, adopted by both, for the air interface. Given that the FCC has already liaised with the ITU on behalf of Starlink, I wouldn't expect generic concerns to cause much of a delay. However, the ITU does make provision for bilateral discussions, including in areas of spectrum management. I'm not aware of any local spectrum utilisation issues that could affect deployment here, but I haven't verified this.

    To be sold/used in Europe the equipment will have to be 'Type Approved' in the EU (i.e. CE Mark, etc.) This would be bread and butter to volume manufacturers of electrical equipment, so shouldn't be an issue.

    The issue EM appears to be referring to is regulatory approval. Again, there are multiple elements to this. In the US, the FCC gives approval on a states-wide basis. In the EU, national organisations, such as ComReg here in Ireland, have local prominence. Bluntly, this means that SpaceX will have to get an individual license in each country in the EU, before they can provide a broadband service. This is bigger than the spectrum utilisation concern mentioned above, covering policy and competition concerns. That's not to say that ComReg acts alone, there is a well developed EU policy, in this area.


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    #57
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    NewClareman wrote: »
    To be sold/used in Europe the equipment will have to be 'Type Approved' in the EU (i.e. CE Mark, etc.) This would be bread and butter to volume manufacturers of electrical equipment, so shouldn't be an issue.

    The issue EM appears to be referring to is regulatory approval.

    Can't see there being any issue with ETSI approval, it's already been underway for the last 2 years, probably why it doesn't concern SpaceX as an issue. The ETSI has a fixed timetable for completion of the process.

    https://portal.etsi.org/webapp/workProgram/Report_Schedule.asp?WKI_ID=56941


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    #58
    NewClareman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,436 ✭✭✭NewClareman


    The Cush wrote: »
    Can't see there being any issue with ETSI approval, it's already been underway for the last 2 years, probably why it doesn't concern SpaceX as an issue. The ETSI has a fixed timetable for completion of the process.

    https://portal.etsi.org/webapp/workProgram/Report_Schedule.asp?WKI_ID=56941

    I couldn't imagine any problem, either. At the very least, Starlink could end up being a quick solution for people working from home who need high speed broadband, sooner rather than later.

    The setup appears to be easy and the performance good.


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    #59
    NotAnotherOrange
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭NotAnotherOrange


    What kind of speeds will something like this offer?

    From where we are apparently Imagine can offer 5g up to 150mb download but it's the upload I'm most concerned about.

    I'm with Airwire currently on Jet 50mb. But the upload speed just isn't consistent for streaming and no-one seems to offer anything higher than 5-10mb~ and we can't get FTTH at the moment


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    #60
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    SoupBanana wrote: »
    What kind of speeds will something like this offer?

    From where we are apparently Imagine can offer 5g up to 150mb download but it's the upload I'm most concerned about.

    Imagine don't do 5G, 4G only, read through some of the more recent posts in the Imagine LTE thread before you consider moving.

    If you go to the Starlink forum on Reddit you get lots of info on their beta testing. Between 50 and 150 Mbps is expected during this period, some have got speeds above 200 Mbps.


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    #61
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,478 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    In a Dáil written reply on Tuesday
    Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications: ... Separately my Department continues to engage with industry to monitor developments in the market and has engaged with SpaceX on the development of their proposed Starlink network. The development of new solutions such as Low Earth Orbit satellite solutions is something that my Department monitors on an ongoing basis. While advances have been made in these satellite based solutions, concerns remain on a number of aspects such as the likely speeds that will be delivered, where the service will be available and the price of services to consumers.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-11-10/233/?highlight%5B0%5D=starlink


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