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Can we pool our knowledge regarding TAX and crypto and make some kind of FAQ/sticky?

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Comments

  • #32
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    rekcaks wrote: »
    Do i have to make a return every year or just when i cash out?

    I'd once a year but we still haven't got clarification on what transactions though


  • #33
    rekcaks
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭rekcaks


    I bought my first crypto on Dec 26th 2017. Is it ok to make the return this year?


  • #34
    Fakent.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Fakent.ie


    Mr.S wrote: »
    I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who's actually withdrew to an Irish account and declared and paid GGT. On paper the process seems straight forward enough if you are a PAYE worker. Does revenue confirm everything is in order once you file?!

    The general consensus i've been reading is that you need to keep a record of all your trades, and not just declare the final trade where you sell and then cash out.
    That gets a bit...confusing.

    Ye I dont understand how they expect us to keep track of every single trade we made, some people have made 100,000's of trades Id imagine...


  • #35
    privateBeavis
    Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭privateBeavis


    rekcaks wrote: »
    I bought my first crypto on Dec 26th 2017. Is it ok to make the return this year?

    CGT is due only when you sell (and also when you trade between cryptos but still not sure about that part but personally assuming I do)

    According to this:
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/capital_taxes/capital_gains_tax.html
    If you sold in Dec then due this month if gains are over the 1270 limit.


  • #36
    Zascar
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 12,778 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zascar


    Lets say I moved to a tax free island tomorrow. I had made some money in crypto but never sold any and never cashed out, are the revenue going to come looking for their slide since the gains were made in Ireland?


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  • #37
    Snipp
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭Snipp


    Flossy Flossy wrote: »
    "The first €1,270 of taxable gains in a tax year are exempt from CGT."

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/capital_taxes/capital_gains_tax.html

    this. anything over, you pay CGT.


  • #38
    td2008
    Registered Users Posts: 477 ✭✭td2008


    Maybe a stupid question, but lets say I have 2 ltc that i bought for 90, i want to buy some alt coins and buy 2 more ltc (230) and transfer to a different exchange.
    When i use these ltc coins do i need to pay cgt on any gains on my initial 2 ltc? :pac:


  • #39
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Zascar wrote: »
    Lets say I moved to a tax free island tomorrow. I had made some money in crypto but never sold any and never cashed out, are the revenue going to come looking for their slide since the gains were made in Ireland?

    Or maybe set up an account in the Cayman islands and transfer the money there? Not sure if it counts as the money never entered Ireland. Begs the question if you're on holidays and make gains over that break do you pay tax in thay country or your home country???


  • #40
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users Posts: 2,180 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    Zascar wrote: »
    Lets say I moved to a tax free island tomorrow. I had made some money in crypto but never sold any and never cashed out, are the revenue going to come looking for their slide since the gains were made in Ireland?

    The answer you be yes, unless you're not ordinarily resident (ie after 3 years non-resident in Ireland you become non-ordinarily resident at the start of the 4th year) you have your obligation to the Irish government.


  • #41
    Mr. Fancypants
    Registered Users Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Mr. Fancypants


    I went through the process of collecting all my trades for 2017 using cointracking which was very useful. It can spit out a tax report for you to use with Revenue. You can import trades from exchanges. I found i needed a bit of manual work when i used things like Shapeshift and Etherdelta. If you are using Shapeshift i highly recommend using the option to get an email receipt for your records to make things a lot easier.

    I also tried using bitcoin.tax but found it nowhere near as good as cointracking.

    I will leave a referral and a non referral link to cointracking if thats ok. The referral link gives a 10% discount if you need to sign up (over 200 trades). It also gives me a kick back.

    https://cointracking.info?ref=M324815

    https://cointracking.info


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  • #42
    Gryzor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Gryzor


    I signed up for this a while back. I used the api import, but found it way off, think downloading csvs from each exchange and uploading it manually is the solution.


  • #43
    Dakota Dan
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Dakota Dan


    privateBeavis wrote: »
    CGT is due only when you sell (and also when you trade between cryptos but still not sure about that part but personally assuming I do)

    According to this:
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/capital_taxes/capital_gains_tax.html
    If you sold in Dec then due this month if gains are over the 1270 limit.

    I thought it was due in October, any gains after octber 17 would be payable in October 18 with self employed anyway. What if you sold high and bought back low the same currency would you have to pay cgt on any gains even though you reinvested the lot in the same currency?


  • #44
    sublime1
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭sublime1


    mbroaders wrote: »
    I went through the process of collecting all my trades for 2017 using cointracking which was very useful. It can spit out a tax report for you to use with Revenue. You can import trades from exchanges. I found i needed a bit of manual work when i used things like Shapeshift and Etherdelta. If you are using Shapeshift i highly recommend using the option to get an email receipt for your records to make things a lot easier.

    I also tried using bitcoin.tax but found it nowhere near as good as cointracking.

    I will leave a referral and a non referral link to cointracking if thats ok. The referral link gives a 10% discount if you need to sign up (over 200 trades). It also gives me a kick back.

    https://cointracking.info?ref=M324815

    https://cointracking.info
    Thanks for this. These are actually pretty good if you're not doing anything too fancy with margins or leverage, and certainly are a great step forward in terms of organising all the trades into a manageable format.

    There's still a few outstanding issues that I see:
    1. method used to calculate gains - I think most people would prefer "Last In First Out", but will Revenue see it that way?
    2. also taxation on long term holding (i.e. more than 1 year) - I haven't seen a distinction made on this, but I believe there could be an argument made for a different tax approach to sale of coins held long term vs short term.

    Thoughts?


  • #45
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    mbroaders wrote: »
    I went through the process of collecting all my trades for 2017 using cointracking which was very useful. It can spit out a tax report for you to use with Revenue. You can import trades from exchanges. I found i needed a bit of manual work when i used things like Shapeshift and Etherdelta. If you are using Shapeshift i highly recommend using the option to get an email receipt for your records to make things a lot easier.

    I also tried using bitcoin.tax but found it nowhere near as good as cointracking.

    I will leave a referral and a non referral link to cointracking if thats ok. The referral link gives a 10% discount if you need to sign up (over 200 trades). It also gives me a kick back.

    https://cointracking.info?ref=M324815

    https://cointracking.info

    i use this too, very useful


  • #46
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    sublime1 wrote: »
    2. also taxation on long term holding (i.e. more than 1 year) - I haven't seen a distinction made on this, but I believe there could be an argument made for a different tax approach to sale of coins held long term vs short term.

    Would this not be the same as any stock or shares people hold for years at present within the country?

    I dont know the ins and outs of it personally but as they are similar in that the length of time can be years the same rule should apply right?


  • #47
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Fakent.ie wrote: »
    Ye I dont understand how they expect us to keep track of every single trade we made, some people have made 100,000's of trades Id imagine...
    The exchange(s) will have a record of every transaction.

    In any case, thats the obligation, you could just, yunno write it down somewhere each time?
    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    I'd once a year but we still haven't got clarification on what transactions though

    Disposal of any asset is eligible.
    Mr.S wrote: »
    Where the gains made in Ireland if they where made online from exchanges based abroad with currencies tied to no country? :D
    The gains were made by you, an Irish citizen, hence CGT is liable.


  • #48
    Mr. Fancypants
    Registered Users Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Mr. Fancypants


    1. I don't see any reason why First in First Out would be an issue. Makes the most sense really.
    2. I set it to short term CGT 33% CGT and set it to use short term only. A separate Long Term rate doesnt apply in Ireland unfortunately.



    sublime1 wrote: »
    There's still a few outstanding issues that I see:
    1. method used to calculate gains - I think most people would prefer "Last In First Out", but will Revenue see it that way?
    2. also taxation on long term holding (i.e. more than 1 year) - I haven't seen a distinction made on this, but I believe there could be an argument made for a different tax approach to sale of coins held long term vs short term.

    Thoughts?


  • #49
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    ZeroThreat wrote: »
    Zascar wrote: »
    Lets say I moved to a tax free island tomorrow. I had made some money in crypto but never sold any and never cashed out, are the revenue going to come looking for their slide since the gains were made in Ireland?
    The answer you be yes, unless you're not ordinarily resident (ie after 3 years non-resident in Ireland you become non-ordinarily resident at the start of the 4th year) you have your obligation to the Irish government.
    Well, the real answer to whether the revenue will "come looking" is very unlikely.

    You are liable for tax for sure, but we essentially operate on a self-assessment system. Unless you get audited (not gonna happen if you are PAYE) the system expects you to declare any gains/losses.


  • #50
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Dades wrote: »
    Well, the real answer to whether the revenue will "come looking" is very unlikely.

    You are liable for tax for sure, but we essentially operate on a self-assessment system. Unless you get audited (not gonna happen if you are PAYE) the system expects you to declare any gains/losses.

    But they will come looking eventually if you are depositing large amounts to your bank...because they bank will inform them.

    Even if you do multiple small amounts, there is a threshold and they inform revenue...on your behalf.


  • #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Ohh, to get to that point!

    Would be interested to know what those amounts are.


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  • #52
    sublime1
    Registered Users Posts: 110 ✭✭sublime1


    mbroaders;1057741641.
    I don't see any reason why First in First Out would be an issue. Makes the most sense really.
    2. I set it to short term CGT 33% CGT and set it to use short term only. A separate Long Term rate doesnt apply in Ireland unfortunately.



    No, by my calculations for HODLers, LIFO is far more preferable than FIFO. Take the scenario where you are HODLing some BTC for a year or more. Then you decide you want to buy some new altcoin, but in order to do so you need to buy some more BTC first, which you can then exchange for the new altcoin. Now, you don't that sale of BTC to be considered a sale of your old coins, which would be the case if you use FIFO.

    It's possible there are other scenarios where FIFO is preferable, but I think many people would be better off with LIFO. And of course, consistency is important, so once you pick a method, you can't change. So you'd better pick the right one first time!


  • #53
    Fakent.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Fakent.ie


    GreeBo wrote: »
    The exchange(s) will have a record of every transaction.

    In any case, thats the obligation, you could just, yunno write it down somewhere each time?



    Disposal of any asset is eligible.


    The gains were made by you, an Irish citizen, hence CGT is liable.

    as if people are gona write down 100,000's of trades


  • #54
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    I guess a good question is has anyone ever cashed a massive amount to their bank account, like over 100/500k and then informed revenue or have their bank ask questions?


  • #55
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    Fakent.ie wrote: »
    as if people are gona write down 100,000's of trades

    You don't need too

    You're exchanges will have records (usually up to 3 months worth)

    Or you can track them all on cointracking.info, it's really easy on the site as you can report trades directly from some exchanges or manually input them


  • #56
    Fakent.ie
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Fakent.ie


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    You don't need too

    You're exchanges will have records (usually up to 3 months worth)

    Or you can track them all on cointracking.info, it's really easy on the site as you can report trades directly from some exchanges or manually input them
    Oh right thanks :)


  • #57
    Mr. Fancypants
    Registered Users Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Mr. Fancypants


    Good point. I suppose if there were long term CGT savings to be had it would make sense to use FIFO.

    I haven't seen anything from Revenue to suggest using FIFO or LIFO. At least with cointracking you can compare easily enough what the difference would be tax wise.
    sublime1 wrote: »
    mbroaders;1057741641.




    No, by my calculations for HODLers, LIFO is far more preferable than FIFO. Take the scenario where you are HODLing some BTC for a year or more. Then you decide you want to buy some new altcoin, but in order to do so you need to buy some more BTC first, which you can then exchange for the new altcoin. Now, you don't that sale of BTC to be considered a sale of your old coins, which would be the case if you use FIFO.

    It's possible there are other scenarios where FIFO is preferable, but I think many people would be better off with LIFO. And of course, consistency is important, so once you pick a method, you can't change. So you'd better pick the right one first time!


  • #58
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    lifeandtimes wrote: »
    You don't need too

    You're exchanges will have records (usually up to 3 months worth)

    Or you can track them all on cointracking.info, it's really easy on the site as you can report trades directly from some exchanges or manually input them
    Cointracking.info had 200 trade limit on free account


  • #59
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,027 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Fakent.ie wrote: »
    as if people are gona write down 100,000's of trades

    I'm not sure being lazy it's a valid excuse.
    Also who is doing over 500 trades per day all year?


  • #60
    lifeandtimes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭lifeandtimes


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm not sure being lazy it's a valid excuse.
    Also who is doing over 500 trades per day all year?

    True but a lot of new people will be ignorant to this and the tax man does come calling they won't have any evidence to back up trades as they disappear after 3 months usually


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  • #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I'm not sure being lazy it's a valid excuse.
    Also who is doing over 500 trades per day all year?

    The bigger question is why is this necessary. Why are revenue not happy with a simple calculation of "amount sold to euro - investment - 1270 = taxable amount". What difference do all them 100 trades some up/some down make when at the end off all that its still going to end up with the same taxable amount as just calculating by subtracting your original investment from your final euro figure.


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