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Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

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Comments

  • #62
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    markodaly wrote: »
    Because they are idiots and economic illiterates in the same vein as Trump and his 'Build a wall' followers.

    The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?


  • #63
    facehugger99
    Registered Users Posts: 7,206 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    murpho999 wrote: »
    They have just ruled that Ireland did not give Apple special treatment.

    It means that Ireland also retains its right to set its own corporate tax rates.

    Those rates have led to companies investing in Ireland. Ireland is competing with other countries for this investment.


    Can you imagine what our economy would be like without them?

    I'm presuming it would be some sort of socialist utopia with bountiful money-tree harvests every year, probably led by a Government of Marxists with their own private army.


  • #64
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Bowie wrote: »
    The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?

    When idiocy like that the money was ours isnt drummed into them by SF and PBP etc


  • #65
    YellowBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭YellowBucket


    The accusation was that the Irish Government or Revenue concluded deals with Apple that weren’t available to other companies and that were in breech of competition law.

    The fact that the tax rate may be too low or that people may find it morally reprehensible not to tax those companies more isn’t really the point that the Commission used in its ruling. It went after a stretch of competition law.

    They levied a charge that the Irish tax system was corrupt and doing side deals and failed to produce evidence to prove this.

    From an Irish perspective, losing this would have looked terrible, undermined our credibility and also damaged inward investment as it sought to apply very significant taxes retrospectively.

    If we don’t agree with the 12.5%, that’s a political matter. It’s something we could change but it’s not anything illegal or corrupt.

    To change European law on this requires a negotiated, agreed treaty change. From what I can see this was a blatantly political move aimed to stretch the competition law into something that would force corporation tax harmonisation. That’s isn’t the appropriate way of achieving that objective and the courts would seem to have taken that view too.

    Whether or not anyone agrees or disagrees with the 12.5% is parallel issue and this just wasn’t how it should have been moved forward on.


  • #66
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?


    The people that complain about this are the ones that dont have a job in aMNC and usual don't have a job at all


    They think if 13 billions get given to Ireland their social cheque will increase :p


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  • #67
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Bowie wrote: »
    The electorate eh? When will they learn to stop complaining?


    They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


    Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland


  • #68
    splinter65
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

    SF/PBP/Peoples Front of Judea/Judean Peoples Front type activists told all their followers that this 13 billion was going to solve all our problems and was a bottomless pit really. And they believed it too.


  • #69
    The Rooster
    Registered Users Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭The Rooster


    Shelga wrote: »
    Totally agree. I'm not going to put my money where my mouth is and sacrifice Irish jobs on the altar of idealism. Hence why I think Sinn Fein should think very carefully before they issue a public statement on this.

    But it just brings into focus again, just how much money international companies avoid paying in tax. Trillions, no doubt. I think this judgement should at least prompt a discussion on how to clamp down on tax havens. Even as I type this I realise how unrealistic it probably is, but here's an interesting article nonetheless, that explores the possibility of unitary tax regimes: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/10/multinationals-billions-tax/

    Proper taxation undoubtedly becomes trickier in a global economy, but are we just going to facilitate the ballooning profits of the likes of Apple and Facebook forever and ever, while wealth disparity around the world continues to grow at a sickening rate?

    Tax rules around the world, including Ireland, have been completely changed in the last 5 years! Led by the OECD there have been fundamental changes which will prevent companies parking profits in havens (among other things).

    This is an old case. It wasn't Irish tax avoidance - Apple always paid 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. It was a US issue which allowed US companies park profits in havens. The US knew about this and could have done away with it years and years ago, but we all know how much influence large corporates have in the US.

    Could Ireland have stopped it earlier? Probably, but why when we were getting our correct fair share and the US IRS knew exactly what was going on? - it was not our job to police how much tax a US company paid in the US.

    Also, which is never really mentioned, it was only a tax deferral Apple were availing of by parking their superprofits in a haven. Any money they send back to the US (for example to pay dividends to their shareholders) is subject to US tax at the full rate less any foreign tax already paid.

    In this case the Commission thought the profits belonged to Ireland rather than the Haven. Because Apple were shoddy in how they implemented their structure they did leave it open to interpretation, and left a crack in the door which the Commission gleefully barged through. But not enough to prove their case.

    Apple, Facebook and pretty much all the other tech and pharma giants which previously used havens to house their IP have now moved all their IP out - many to Ireland, but also many to US, Switzerland, UK etc also. By the end of this year, you will only be permitted to have profits in havens if you have people working there and you can support the profit levels based on substance - so most are out already.


  • #70
    ArchXStanton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭ArchXStanton


    Laois_Man wrote: »
    Nation states are governed by their respective supreme courts ultimately.

    Certainly not by the European Commission

    EU law takes precedence over national law as far as I'm aware


  • #71
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Mortelaro wrote: »
    When idiocy like that the money was ours isnt drummed into them by SF and PBP etc

    ...and not forgetting the EU.
    Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.


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  • #72
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,389 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Bowie wrote: »
    Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

    FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

    How is it two fingers to the EU when an EU court/body has just found the charges were incorrect.

    Can you not see that Ireland has been cleared of any wrong doing?


  • #73
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,583 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


    Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland

    I'd take a look here.....

    Bit of tidying up would make your point a lot more valid.


  • #74
    talla10
    Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭talla10


    Bowie wrote: »
    ...and not forgetting the EU.
    Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

    No its a real win for Paul Murphy, Richard Boyd Barrett and all the other populist politicians who can go on about this for the lifetime of the next few governments. Its easier to throw mud than actually having to govern!


  • #75
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    christy c wrote: »
    This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

    This.

    And Paul Murphy banging on about it.

    Where are all the posters that were supporting this gone to?


  • #76
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,583 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    talla10 wrote: »
    No its a real win for Paul Murphy, Richard Boyd Barrett and all the other populist politicians who can go on about this for the lifetime of the next few governments. Its easier to throw mud than actually having to govern!

    The thoughts of these people actually in charge of the country makes me nauseous...The most divisive politicians we have ever had.


  • #77
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users Posts: 8,260 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    splinter65 wrote: »
    SF/PBP/Peoples Front of Judea/Judean Peoples Front type activists told all their followers that this 13 billion was going to solve all our problems and was a bottomless pit really. And they believed it too.

    Its the level of ignorance from people like Pearse Doherty thats staggering.

    He hasnt a clue what the mechanics of the ruling was based upon but has no problem releasing statements full of uneducated drivel.


  • #78
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Bowie wrote: »
    Secures Ireland's reputation as a corporate tax haven and sticks two fingers up at the EU. All nice and legal like.

    FF/FG would be well advised not to wallow in this 'victory'.

    Aren't you glad that we didn't spend the billions of money in the escrow account now? What kind of trouble would the country be in if we had to give it all back to Apple?

    It clearly shows up the stupidity of those who called for the money to be spent.


  • #79
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,583 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Its the level of ignorance from people like Pearse Doherty thats staggering.

    He hasnt a clue what the mechanics of the ruling was based upon but has no problem releasing statements full of uneducated drivel.

    Indeed

    Next to no nuance or depth or intricacy to him and his like.

    Everyone should have been united here against this.....

    The country was accused of wrongdoing.....not just a part of it. The state, its people...we are together. And we ALL have been vindicated.


  • #80
    Mortelaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Mortelaro


    Bowie wrote: »
    ...and not forgetting the EU.
    Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.

    Your lot would probably appeal it to the Special criminal court,they're that clueless


  • #81
    christy c
    Registered Users Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭christy c


    blanch152 wrote: »
    This.

    And Paul Murphy banging on about it.

    Where are all the posters that were supporting this gone to?

    Those posters usually hide their completely brain dead proposals behind "fairness".


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  • #82
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Bowie wrote: »
    ...and not forgetting the EU.
    Ireland hasn't covered itself in glory today. It's a win for dem dat don't like to pay tax.


    Of course you are allowed to have your opinion.

    The rest of us, it's a huge win for Ireland, all the people who are employed by these companies and who will hopefully in the future continue to be employed.


  • #83
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    d15ude wrote: »
    Yes, it has.

    But it's almost certain that the case will now move on to the European Court of Justice.
    And if Apple had lost they would appeal as well. The legal profession have kids to feed as well


  • #84
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
    This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.


  • #85
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    walshb wrote: »
    The thoughts of these people actually in charge of the country makes me nauseous...The most divisive politicians we have ever had.

    Clearly they'll say that the judge was wrong and he /she on a big dirty salary too. The lizardy gougers.


  • #86
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,169 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Iscreamkone wrote: »
    I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
    This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.

    I don't think that is necessary at this point in time, but it should be kept under review.

    For Ireland, there is a balance between attracting companies and our ability to support them so that they maintain a real presence. For example, we have had issues with planning permission for Intel in Kildare. We have also had problems with the supply of particular types of graduates to MNCs which have meant immigration has had to take up the slack. Beyond that, there is the investment in infrastructure needed to support the MNCs.

    Up until this year, it was clear that we were in an equilibrium state where the incentives on offer were ensuring that nearly anyone who wanted a job could get one. Covid-19 might change that balance, but it is too early to be definitive about the various different ways in which we will need to respond.

    One thing is clear - the 12.5% rate has only been good for Ireland.


  • #87
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,797 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Iscreamkone wrote: »
    I propose we reduce the corporation tax to 10%.
    This would boost inward investment at a time when it's badly needed and persuade those already here to grow their Irish business.

    theyd hardly do more share buy backs, would they, instead of creating jobs?


  • #88
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,405 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    astrofool wrote: »
    You missed the avoidance vs. evasion class in school didn't you?

    I did. Not that it matters. It’s essentially the same thing regardless whether there’s a thin veil of legality over it or not.

    But people who themselves have 50% plus of their income taken by the taxman will applaud nonetheless. Go figure.


  • #89
    rob316
    Registered Users Posts: 17,938 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Absolutely no need to reduce it further. Well educated, english speaking country with little interference from government. The UK can offer the same and their rate is 18%.


  • #90
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 706 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I don't think that is necessary at this point in time, but it should be kept under review.

    For Ireland, there is a balance between attracting companies and our ability to support them so that they maintain a real presence. For example, we have had issues with planning permission for Intel in Kildare. We have also had problems with the supply of particular types of graduates to MNCs which have meant immigration has had to take up the slack. Beyond that, there is the investment in infrastructure needed to support the MNCs.

    Up until this year, it was clear that we were in an equilibrium state where the incentives on offer were ensuring that nearly anyone who wanted a job could get one. Covid-19 might change that balance, but it is too early to be definitive about the various different ways in which we will need to respond.

    One thing is clear - the 12.5% rate has only been good for Ireland.

    If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
    It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.


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  • #91
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    They should at least learn the basic before shouting and roaring about it


    Having a leader of a political party been so stupid she doesnt understand was a low point for the education system in the whole of Ireland

    Oh she knows well. She's only pandering to her voters.

    First they came for the socialists...



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