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Hi all,
Vanilla are planning an update to the site on April 24th (next Wednesday). It is a major PHP8 update which is expected to boost performance across the site. The site will be down from 7pm and it is expected to take about an hour to complete. We appreciate your patience during the update.
Thanks all.

James McClean

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    #32
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,097 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    partyguinness wrote: »
    If McLean thinks the abuse he suffers is on par with the abuse thrown at black players or the daily discrimination suffered by black people in general society then he really is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Doesn't he get death threats and bullets in the post?

    I'm no expert on scales of discrimination but are death threats not pretty bad?


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    #33
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    He draws it upon himself now at this stage, but that's what years of abuse and no support from the authorities has done


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    #34
    ThewhiteJesus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭ThewhiteJesus


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That wasn’t his point?

    His point was that some people care more about discrimination against some people than others.

    I’m just not sure what he expects should happen as a result of him stating the bloody obvious.

    the same thing that will happen over this farcical far left movement BLM,
    Nothing.


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    #35
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Ok what discriminaiton does he suffer?

    Saying it is "bollocks" really is not the smartest rebuttal.

    If McLean thinks the abuse he suffers is on par with the abuse thrown at black players or the daily discrimination suffered by black people in general society then he really is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    As I said he has a choice. He decides to mouth off every November about the Poppy (now I agree the Poppy BS is a load of BS). Fine that is his choice.

    McGolderick and black players have no choice when they are abused about the colour of the skin they were born with.

    McLean is not sticking up for injustices in the world. He is making a choice based on his political views. Fine. McLean is not sticking up for some society wide problem. It is his own narrow political allegiances that he is heckled about.

    I have sat in Premier League grounds and for example I listened to all sorts of chants against Frank Lampard for being "fat". Now should we expect Frank Lampard to start crying about the fattest abuse he suffered. No of course not.

    McLean might as well shout out: "The lives of Derry Republicans matter too."

    Abuse about your political views and abuse about the colour of your skin are nowhere near the same. Not even on the same planet.

    Have your views on the Poppy (which I agree with BTW) but you are living and working in England. What does he expect to achieve? All of a sudden the barely literate mobs in the stand will sit and contemplate his position and agree with him? Fantasy stuff.

    I cannot understand why McLean even bothers explaining himself- that is his mistake. He is dealing with football fans....generally not the smartest bunch around.

    If you think black pl league players suffer discrimination in their daily lives you are deluded, are you suggesting McCLean change religion so or nationality to not suffer abuse as you said black players cant change skin colour. Regularly stadiums are booing him at matches that does not happen to black players based on there skin colour.


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    #36
    ThewhiteJesus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭ThewhiteJesus


    partyguinness wrote: »
    I don't follow Twitter but he spews out that type of nonsense and then cries like a little baby when he gets abuse over it. McLean is not the sharpest tool in the shed. He is just as moronic as the apes that abuse him from the stands- well made for each other.

    Who are you referring to as Apes ?


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    #37
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Francie Barrett wrote: »
    This is why politics should be taken out of sport entirely. The poppy is supposed to be a personal decision, but they way it's been structured by authorities, you basically have to wear one or else you're vilified for not doing so. The same thing has happened with BLM. There must be huge pressure on players to participate on these political stunts, a failure to do so would probably cost them their livelihood because the backlash from the keyboard warriors would be immense.

    George Carlin is dead right, this is the road to fascism. Certain opinions are getting censored, others are promoted. People are conforming out of fear.

    I agree completely, I've always felt sport should remain seperate from politics.

    But taking away people's freedom of choice is particularly dangerous. Sure McClean tecnhically has a choice not to wear the poppy but he gets a lot of abuse for it and little to no backup from the media.

    Same with the BLM matter taking a knee gesture, it's not optional for any player who doesn't want to risk their career, it's kneel down or face the consequences, you're opinion doesn't matter.

    Now generally countries who operate on this sort of authoritarian basis are not viewed upon favourably, but why is it ok when it's dressed up as 'tolerance'?


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    #38
    accensi0n
    Registered Users Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭accensi0n


    ThewhiteJesus wrote: »
    Who are you referring to as Apes ?

    The knuckle draggers.


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    #39
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    Doesn't he get death threats and bullets in the post?

    I'm no expert on scales of discrimination but are death threats not pretty bad?




    Perhaps if he kept his mouth shut and his views to himself it would make his life a lot easier. He cannot achieve anything by going on like this.

    I can't help but think that he draws it on himself. He is either incredibly dumb or incredibly naive

    Launching into an anti-Poppy/oppressed Derry tirade every so often when you live and work in Stoke and West Bromwich is just not clever. I know these places and they not exactly bastions of tolerance and inclusivity. Brexit voting, Daily Mail reading bigoted White Trash would be a very generous generalisation. These areas recorded some of the highest ‘Vote Leave’ votes.

    It is not dissimilar to living and working in Alabama or Mississippi and publicly mouthing off against guns or NASCAR or the Confederate flag. You are drawing a world of grief on yourself. And for what exactly?


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    #40
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    If you think black pl league players suffer discrimination in their daily lives you are deluded, are you suggesting McCLean change religion so or nationality to not suffer abuse as you said black players cant change skin colour. Regularly stadiums are booing him at matches that does not happen to black players based on there skin colour.


    Go back and read my post very carefully as you have muddled up two distinct statements.

    That is not what I said but how the hell do you know whether or not black players suffer discrimination in their daily life? Discrimination comes in all forms and sizes both conscious and unconscious.


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    #41
    OptimusTractor
    Registered Users Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭OptimusTractor


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    I agree completely, I've always felt sport should remain seperate from politics.


    Sport particularly soccer has always been political. Some of the great footballing rivalries are born out of predominantly Right/Left divides.


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    #42
    Rebel_Kn1ght
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Rebel_Kn1ght


    Nemanja Matic doesn't wear a poppy either and doesn't take any abuse. I believe he chose not to because of the NATO bombing of Belgrade


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    #43
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    OptimusTractor wrote: »
    Sport particularly soccer has always been political. Some of the great footballing rivalries are born out of predominantly Right/Left divides.

    Broadly speaking it's more tribalism I'd say, 'us v them' and all that lark.

    Anyway, as long as everybody is respected and nobody gets injured in any moronic fan riots etc then we're all good.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Ok what discriminaiton does he suffer?

    Hold on, you said he suffers abuse, initially, and asked if it was based on creed. The answer is yes he does and it is based on creed. Lets not start changing goalposts here.
    partyguinness wrote: »
    Saying it is "bollocks" really is not the smartest rebuttal.

    Replying to posts takes time and effort. If your post is a load of bollocks, people generally won't take that time and make that effort to refute it, generally because you cannot reason with someone who hasn't used reasoned themselves into that position. Here's a quick rebuttal to your points from the original post:

    Being white, or male, or English speaking or any combination of the three does not preclude somebody from suffering abuse. The inference that it does is laughable. The whole concept of 'privilege' is ridiculous. Similarly, the point about him shutting up is victim blaming of the highest degree. It is on a par with saying girls shouldn't wear short skirts if they don't want to be assaulted, imo.
    partyguinness wrote: »
    If McLean thinks the abuse he suffers is on par with the abuse thrown at black players or the daily discrimination suffered by black people in general society then he really is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    It isn't a competition. Abuse is abuse, just because one person has it worse doesn't mean you should put up with it. Should all the black premier league players put up or shut up because of the holocaust? No, of course not, because its a ridiculous standpoint. Similarly, JMC shouldn't have to deal with all that crap because of monkey chants and bananas being thrown onto the pitch.

    partyguinness wrote: »
    McLean is not sticking up for injustices in the world. He is making a choice based on his political views. Fine. McLean is not sticking up for some society wide problem. It is his own narrow political allegiances that he is heckled about.

    What? There is an entire community North of the border for whom sectarian abuse is indeed a society wide problem, on both sides of the divide. To suggest otherwise is myopic. You have heard of the troubles, yeah?
    partyguinness wrote: »
    Abuse about your political views and abuse about the colour of your skin are nowhere near the same. Not even on the same planet.

    Again, not a competition. I disagree that they are nowhere near the same (do you want him to convert religion or something, as if that will solve all his problems?) but even if they were the same, one doesn't negate the other.
    partyguinness wrote: »
    Have your views on the Poppy (which I agree with BTW) but you are living and working in England. What does he expect to achieve? All of a sudden the barely literate mobs in the stand will sit and contemplate his position and agree with him? Fantasy stuff.

    So, because he's in England he should just STFU and suffer in silence, supporting the state-sponsored murder of his community members? Should we do the same with countries that have (worse) racism problems, like say Russia or Spain? Should the barely literate mobs in those countries remain unchallenged or should we try to eradicate it. If somebody said the above, and replaced "the poppy" with "racial equality" there'd be uproar (and rightly so) from all corners.

    There is a strong implication from your points that, because he is white, its not as bad. That is racist in and of itself.


  • Options
    #45
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Maybe we should force Protestants to wear an Easter lily , or Jews to wear a Swastika or Black people to commemorate the KKK ?

    Re the Easter lily, not sure that one's religion comes into it, as most people in Ireland don't wear it anyway, and most Irish folk claim to be Roman Catholics, many Catholics in England too!

    Regarding any comparison between the Swastika and the poppy, or the KKK and the poppy, well I think you're just being provocative or just a bit silly?


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    #46
    ThewhiteJesus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,714 ✭✭✭ThewhiteJesus


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Perhaps if he kept his mouth shut and his views to himself it would make his life a lot easier. He cannot achieve anything by going on like this.

    I can't help but think that he draws it on himself. He is either incredibly dumb or incredibly naive

    Launching into an anti-Poppy/oppressed Derry tirade every so often when you live and work in Stoke and West Bromwich is just not clever. I know these places and they not exactly bastions of tolerance and inclusivity. Brexit voting, Daily Mail reading bigoted White Trash would be a very generous generalisation. These areas recorded some of the highest ‘Vote Leave’ votes.

    It is not dissimilar to living and working in Alabama or Mississippi and publicly mouthing off against guns or NASCAR or the Confederate flag. You are drawing a world of grief on yourself. And for what exactly?

    Not everyone is a coward who keeps quiet out of fear.


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    #47
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    And the abuse has only become more pronounced with the rise of jingoistic poppy-shaming rhetoric. The act of publicly ridiculing a professional footballer for not sporting a flower on his lapel is ridiculous. Britain no longer has an empire despite what the tabloids print, the days of colonial subjugation are over.

    He should be allowed wear the Lilly come Easter, if the poppy is allowed for the brits


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    #48
    c.p.w.g.w
    Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    All this talk of him keeping his views to himself...if I said that of pogba I'd be accused of being a racist, trying to keep the black down...

    There is a massive double standard here


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    #49
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Go back and read my post very carefully as you have muddled up two distinct statements.

    That is not what I said but how the hell do you know whether or not black players suffer discrimination in their daily life? Discrimination comes in all forms and sizes both conscious and unconscious.

    You said mcgoldrick and black players cant change there skin color so the abuse is unjustified, are you saying McCLean should change religion nationality to not get abuse?


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    #50
    dundalkfc10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭dundalkfc10


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    McClean leaves himself open to attack, he's deliberately said and done things that paint a big red target on himself...

    The poppy thing is the obvious red flag, where out of all his team mates, the opposing team, and the fans he decides not to wear a poppy in England on poppy day!

    OK, so I think the whole poppy day (compulsory wearing of) has gone far too far, specially on TV, but by not obeying the same custom as everybody else on the teams & the stadium crowd, he does stand out as not being part of the commemoration, hence it irks people.
    His attitude is the problem.

    Plenty of players don't wear one. Matic from Man Utd the Serbian player refuses to have a poppy on his shirt but sure its ok cause he's not Irish

    The poster who started the thread can't even spell the lads name correct ffs


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    #51
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    He should be allowed wear the Lilly come Easter, if the poppy is allowed for the brits

    Or just leave all personal political symbols in the changing rooms and allow people to enjoy football.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Aegir wrote: »
    I doubt you decided to switch from playing for Northern Ireland to the Republic and then took to twitter to mock your former team either.

    If that former team is supported by extreme bigots then I don't see any issue.

    Go back and look at our games with them in the 1990s. Lovely place Windsor.


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    #53
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Deleted User wrote: »
    .....its a valid comparison?

    Comparing the poppy to the Swastika!

    Are you crackers?


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    #54
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,984 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Huntergonzo wrote: »
    Or just leave all personal political symbols in the changing rooms and allow people to enjoy football.

    Maybe the EPL (and ALL the British media too) need to adopt this stance?


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    #55
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    partyguinness wrote: »
    Ok what discriminaiton does he suffer?

    Saying it is "bollocks" really is not the smartest rebuttal.

    If McLean thinks the abuse he suffers is on par with the abuse thrown at black players or the daily discrimination suffered by black people in general society then he really is living in cloud cuckoo land.

    As I said he has a choice. He decides to mouth off every November about the Poppy (now I agree the Poppy BS is a load of BS). Fine that is his choice.

    McGolderick and black players have no choice when they are abused about the colour of the skin they were born with.

    McLean is not sticking up for injustices in the world. He is making a choice based on his political views. Fine. McLean is not sticking up for some society wide problem. It is his own narrow political allegiances that he is heckled about.

    I have sat in Premier League grounds and for example I listened to all sorts of chants against Frank Lampard for being "fat". Now should we expect Frank Lampard to start crying about the fattest abuse he suffered. No of course not.

    McLean might as well shout out: "The lives of Derry Republicans matter too."

    Abuse about your political views and abuse about the colour of your skin are nowhere near the same. Not even on the same planet.

    Have your views on the Poppy (which I agree with BTW) but you are living and working in England. What does he expect to achieve? All of a sudden the barely literate mobs in the stand will sit and contemplate his position and agree with him? Fantasy stuff.

    I cannot understand why McLean even bothers explaining himself- that is his mistake. He is dealing with football fans....generally not the smartest bunch around.

    what choice does McClean have given he is being abused for being catholic and irish. He was born that way just like mcgoldrick was born black. If you actually watch soccer you can hear large sections of stadiums booing him, that does not happen many others.


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    #56
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,984 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I get what his point is, it was having a little dig at his team mates, who are all taking the knee now and posting black squares on their social media profiles because it's an easy thing to do. Go with the flow.

    But none of them will ever back James in his poppy stance or come out in his defence because they want to keep their heads down and not get abused themselves. It's the easy option.

    They see and hear an Irishman, and team mate, get racist and evil chanting and abuse from fans but sure say nothing. Don't want to get involved.

    But some guy gets killed by police thousands of miles away and they are all over it.


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    #57
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Maybe the EPL (and ALL the British media too) need to adopt this stance?

    Be no harm when it comes to sport anyway I think, be nice to get a break from all the worlds troubles and just enjoy the competition.


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    #58
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    iebamm2580 wrote: »
    If you actually watch soccer you can hear large sections of stadiums booing him,

    Not any more you can't!


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hamsterchops wrote: »
    Comparing the poppy to the Swastika!

    Are you crackers?

    No...but it deos celebrate soldiers who carried out bloody sunday,so comparison is valid imo


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    #60
    partyguinness
    Registered Users Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hold on, you said he suffers abuse, initially, and asked if it was based on creed. The answer is yes he does and it is based on creed. Lets not start changing goalposts here.



    Replying to posts takes time and effort. If your post is a load of bollocks, people generally won't take that time and make that effort to refute it, generally because you cannot reason with someone who hasn't used reasoned themselves into that position. Here's a quick rebuttal to your points from the original post:

    Being white, or male, or English speaking or any combination of the three does not preclude somebody from suffering abuse. The inference that it does is laughable. The whole concept of 'privilege' is ridiculous. Similarly, the point about him shutting up is victim blaming of the highest degree. It is on a par with saying girls shouldn't wear short skirts if they don't want to be assaulted, imo.



    It isn't a competition. Abuse is abuse, just because one person has it worse doesn't mean you should put up with it. Should all the black premier league players put up or shut up because of the holocaust? No, of course not, because its a ridiculous standpoint. Similarly, JMC shouldn't have to deal with all that crap because of monkey chants and bananas being thrown onto the pitch.




    What? There is an entire community North of the border for whom sectarian abuse is indeed a society wide problem, on both sides of the divide. To suggest otherwise is myopic. You have heard of the troubles, yeah?



    Again, not a competition. I disagree that they are nowhere near the same (do you want him to convert religion or something, as if that will solve all his problems?) but even if they were the same, one doesn't negate the other.



    So, because he's in England he should just STFU and suffer in silence, supporting the state-sponsored murder of his community members? Should we do the same with countries that have (worse) racism problems, like say Russia or Spain? Should the barely literate mobs in those countries remain unchallenged or should we try to eradicate it. If somebody said the above, and replaced "the poppy" with "racial equality" there'd be uproar (and rightly so) from all corners.

    There is a strong implication from your points that, because he is white, its not as bad. That is racist in and of itself.


    This may come as great surprise to you but every single player gets abuse from the stands in some form or another. McLean gets singled out because of his views on the Poppy.

    It was his choice to take such a vocal stand. He did not have to and that was his choice

    There is a big effing difference between getting abuse and getting abuse about your skin colour like McGolderick.

    McLean drew the 'abuse' on himself by taking a very public stand on a political symbol. Up to 7-8 years ago the vast majority of football supporters didn’t give two fcuks about him. He was a limited bog standard professional footballer until he then starting mouthing off about the Poppy and spewing crap on Twitter.

    Let's get very basic about: McLean started it.

    I am going to hazard that you are sitting on a high horse in Ireland somewhere (which is a small white monocultural island)- you really have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to BAME issues in the UK or elsewhere for that matter. These are issues which relatively speaking do not exist in Ireland.

    The 'implication' from my post is that if you are white, straight and male you are in a privileged position in society- you are the apex predator. The challenges facing you are non-existent compared to other sections of society. You will not suffer from homophobic abuse, racial or ethnic abuse or sexism. Is that explicit enough for you?

    If you have strong political views fine but be it on your own head if perhaps your audience is not receptive.

    And as for suffering in silence..are you having a laugh? McLean never shuts up and cries when he gets it back with interest from 'fans'.

    I am not saying the abuse is right but trying to turn the 'abuse' suffered by McLean this into some noble crusade akin to the issues facing BAME in the UK is just downright outrageous and downright ignorant. You are clueless.


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    #61
    Hamsterchops
    Registered Users Posts: 3,133 ✭✭✭Hamsterchops


    Feisar wrote: »
    I work in the UK a lot and no one has ever said anything about me not wearing a poppy., it's really media driven.

    Agreed, although I would say commemoration (not celebration) on poppy itself is mostly genuine.


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