Gaelscoil Teachers - Fluency?

Ngannou54 · 27-06-2020 5:47pm #1

Do Gaelscoil teachers need to be completely fluent? Do you basically need to be a native speaker from the Gaeltacht?

Is it possible (or advisable!!) to secure a teaching position in a primary Gaelscoil with only a high standard of Irish (e.g. B1/A1 Leaving Cert Honours or someone with Irish in their degree)...Obviously assuming the teacher is willing to actively work on their Irish and give it their all..thanks in advance for your opinions. :-)

byhookorbycrook · 27-06-2020 8:36pm

I work in a Gaelscoil, have done since 1994 . I spent a number of summers working in West Kerry both as a ceannaire and teaching the jobs. Leaving Cert. class. My degree was a 1.1 in Irish and education and my college friends and I would correspond exclusively as Gaeilge since then . But as a non- native speaker , my first term was spent trying to catch up with terms I had to breakdown in my head for a bit .

I would say , being VERY honest , that today’s grads do need a lot of work to manage to survive in an Irish medium school. I’ve been horrified by the lack of fluency many grads show .

F5500 · 27-06-2020 11:36pm

From experience, newly graduated teachers find a steep learning curve going to an all-Irish setting. However, immersion in the language brings you on leaps and bounds.

I got a B2 in Irish in the Leaving Cert and I've never been to a Gaeltacht. I now teach in a Gaelcholáiste to Leaving Cert HL. Steep learning curve but anything's possible.

RealJohn · 27-06-2020 11:47pm

OP, why do you even want to teach in a Gaelscoil if you’re not fluent. You’ll get away with it at secondary, as long as you make an effort, but I can’t imagine you’ll last long at primary in an Irish medium school. There’ll be a lot of people out there with better Irish than you, unless you’re in a ‘challenging’ school.

dory · 28-06-2020 2:21am

You definitely don't need to be from the Gaeltacht. For your own sanity you need to be good and/or willing to learn. I know people teaching in Gaelcholáistí a long time, and a few recently told me they'd love to be able to relax and speak English at lunch. They're still not totally comfortable speaking the language. But don't let that put you off. If you're interested and feel you could do it, then go for it!

byhookorbycrook · 28-06-2020 9:36am

dory wrote: »

You definitely don't need to be from the Gaeltacht. For your own sanity you need to be good and/or willing to learn. I know people teaching in Gaelcholáistí a long time, and a few recently told me they'd love to be able to relax and speak English at lunch. They're still not totally comfortable speaking the language. But don't let that put you off. If you're interested and feel you could do it, then go for it!

If people need to “ relax “ and “ speak English at lunch,” they definitely don’t belong as a teacher in an Irish medium school . All of our interactions in school are through Irish, bar with parents who might be under pressure trying to speak to a staff member in Irish , but even those parents are encouraged to use the much cliched “ cúpla focal .” We have parents from at least ten different countries, some with 5/6 other languages , so it’s not being elitist, it’s about promoting the Irish language each day .

Imagine if the OP was a native French speaker looking to teach in an English medium primary school, without good fluency in English ?

dory · 28-06-2020 8:00pm

I feel like you quoted what I said.....but were replying to something else??

Never did I say anything about elitist, or not needing to be fluent. By the relax thing I meant my friends are v comfortable with Irish, and even they feel they need a break from it. So maybe the OP wouldn't enjoy the experience if she wasn't fully comfortable.

I went through the Gaelcholáiste system and taught there for a while. The standard of Irish among teachers was....ok at best.

byhookorbycrook · 28-06-2020 11:15pm

Dory, I’m not sure you read my post in the way I meant if . You do need to be fluent and want to speak the language . You don’t need to be a native speaker ( few of our staff are ) but you need to be totally comfortable with the language .

The elitist references were more to do with people who claim Irish medium schools are only for certain children and staff .

Ngannou54 · 29-06-2020 10:15am

Thank you all for your opinions. It was interesting to hear the different points of view.

It is difficult to define 'fluency'. On the European Common Framework of Languages https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/level-descriptions it is a C1. They have six levels.

A1 - Beginner
A2 - Upper Beginner
B1 - Low Intermediate
B2 - High Intermediate
C1- Fluent (non-native)
C2 - Fluent (native/mastery)

I passed a B1 exam in Spanish with the DELE Instituto Cervantes. These are accredited diplomas awarded by the Spanish Ministry for Education. Judging from the level of Spanish that I needed for that exam, I would say I am probably a B2 in Irish.

I have also heard that some Gaelscoils cannot fill permanent jobs that they advertise as there is a shortage of fluent teachers. If this is the case what do schools do when they can't find anyone to fill the position? Thanks again for your inputs.

[Deleted User] · 29-06-2020 1:50pm

Ngannou54 wrote: »

Thank you all for your opinions. It was interesting to hear the different points of view.

It is difficult to define 'fluency'. On the European Common Framework of Languages https://www.coe.int/en/web/common-european-framework-reference-languages/level-descriptions it is a C1. They have six levels.

A1 - Beginner
A2 - Upper Beginner
B1 - Low Intermediate
B2 - High Intermediate
C1- Fluent (non-native)
C2 - Fluent (native/mastery)

I passed a B1 exam in Spanish with the DELE Instituto Cervantes. These are accredited diplomas awarded by the Spanish Ministry for Education. Judging from the level of Spanish that I needed for that exam, I would say I am probably a B2 in Irish.

I have also heard that some Gaelscoils cannot fill permanent jobs that they advertise as there is a shortage of fluent teachers. If this is the case what do schools do when they can't find anyone to fill the position? Thanks again for your inputs.

I left a Gaelscoil primary aged 11 fluent. Managed an A1 in my Leaving but lost it bit by bit over about 10 years. Then did a TP in a Gaelscoil - I was completely overwhelmed for the first few weeks, but it came back to me and by the end of the placement and after two stints in the Gaeltacht, I was back to being fluent. There's nothing like complete immersion.

RealJohn · 29-06-2020 6:27pm

dory wrote: »

You definitely don't need to be from the Gaeltacht. For your own sanity you need to be good and/or willing to learn. I know people teaching in Gaelcholáistí a long time, and a few recently told me they'd love to be able to relax and speak English at lunch. They're still not totally comfortable speaking the language. But don't let that put you off. If you're interested and feel you could do it, then go for it!

Teachers who neee to relax and speak English at lunch undermine the school’s ethos. Students do notice when teachers aren’t speaking Irish by choice, and it does give the impression that those teachers don’t find the language valuable (and gives the students the impression that it’s difficult to speak Irish for 7-8 hours, even when you’re surrounded by Irish speakers). Teachers without good Irish are hired out of necessity in Gaelcholáistí, but that necessity shouldn’t exist at primary, since the teachers are supposed to be able to speak Irish.

Any teacher in a Gaelcholáiste who doesn’t at least have enough Irish to stick to it for the entire school day should either be making an effort to improve their Irish, or actively looking for a more appropriate school to move to.

Avonoidea · 29-06-2020 10:30pm

Any teacher in a Gaelcholáiste who doesn’t at least have enough Irish to stick to it for the entire school day should either be making an effort to improve their Irish, or actively looking for a more appropriate school to move to.[/QUOTE]

My daughter attended a Gaelcholáiste and some teachers had very poor Irish.The students do notice those teachers who avoid speaking Irish and those who have poor Irish. Even at parent's meeting, those same teachers avoided holding a five minute conversation. I know this isn't the case for all Gaelcholáiste but it does exist.

dory · 29-06-2020 10:59pm

I know. I wish things were better! I teach Irish, help with PME students and am constantly shocked at the level of Irish they have. And these are people with Irish degrees who want to teach Irish. Nevermind someone with a Science degree who just so happens to also have a bit of Irish.

OP, I think the Irish you would need in a classroom would be different to those DELE exams. I've done some of them as well. You need to find a buddy and speak Irish with them as much as possible.

williaint · 30-06-2020 12:10pm

I am a MFL teacher in an English medium school but I'd be very interested in moving to a Gaelcolaiste in the future.

I was told the TEG B2 would be the best qualification to have. I haven't touched Irish in 16 years but currently have a B1 level.

Any thoughts on this? And for any MFL teachers in Gaelcolaisti, is there anything particularly challenging about teaching a foreign language through Irish? Just so I know what I can start working on!

Blush_01 · 01-07-2020 12:39am

williaint wrote: »

I am a MFL teacher in an English medium school but I'd be very interested in moving to a Gaelcolaiste in the future.

I was told the TEG B2 would be the best qualification to have. I haven't touched Irish in 16 years but currently have a B1 level.

Any thoughts on this? And for any MFL teachers in Gaelcolaisti, is there anything particularly challenging about teaching a foreign language through Irish? Just so I know what I can start working on!

Oh gosh, you'd need more than B2, I'd imagine. You need B1 to be accepted into the primary PME in the NUIs, so that's the bare minimum entry requirement, graduates have to be significantly better than that by the time they're graduating.

Ngannou54 · 01-07-2020 7:25am

I was wondering if anyone could tell me what Gaelscoils do when they cannot fill the teaching posts that they advertise? How do they solve this problem if they are short a teacher for the coming school year?

I read an article in the Irish Times a while back saying that a number of Gaelscoils had to readvertise permanent jobs as they received no applications...here is some of it..

"The general secretary of An Foras Pátrúnachta, the largest patron of Irish-medium schools, said gaelscoileanna were growing in popularity and required more qualified teachers.

“We’re hearing there is a real lack of applications in some areas and schools are having to re-advertise positions,” said Caoimhín Ó hEaghra.

“The new degree for teaching through Irish in primary schools is a recognition of the fact that we need more fully qualified Irish teachers in the system.”

New degree
This is a reference to a new bachelor in education degree through the medium of Irish for primary teaching in Marino Institute of Education."

williaint · 01-07-2020 10:43am

Blush_01 wrote: »

Oh gosh, you'd need more than B2, I'd imagine. You need B1 to be accepted into the primary PME in the NUIs, so that's the bare minimum entry requirement, graduates have to be significantly better than that by the time they're graduating.

Oh really ? Secondary school teachers of a MFL are only required to have B2 level at the time of registering with the TC. I myself have completed C1 and C2 certifications but they were not required to register or secure a job in Ireland (I needed them for teaching abroad).

So you think teachers of all subjects in Irish medium schools are C1 or C2 (native like)?

RealJohn · 01-07-2020 11:25am

williaint wrote: »

I am a MFL teacher in an English medium school but I'd be very interested in moving to a Gaelcolaiste in the future.

I was told the TEG B2 would be the best qualification to have. I haven't touched Irish in 16 years but currently have a B1 level.

In practice, if you’re a (genuinely) competent Irish speaker, most Gaelcholáistí will be delighted just to get you through the door, regardless of your actual qualifications in Irish (other than as a teacher of Irish, obviously).

RealJohn · 01-07-2020 11:29am

Avonoidea wrote: »

My daughter attended a Gaelcholáiste and some teachers had very poor Irish.The students do notice those teachers who avoid speaking Irish and those who have poor Irish. Even at parent's meeting, those same teachers avoided holding a five minute conversation. I know this isn't the case for all Gaelcholáiste but it does exist.

I know. You can get away with it, but you shouldn’t be “getting away with it” as a teacher, in any school. You should be teaching what you’re qualified to teach, and if you’re teaching through Irish, you should be competent to do so, making an active effort to improve, or be looking for a more appropriate school.
Frankly, in my opinion, you shouldn’t qualify for a CID or PWT in a Gaelcholáiste, unless you’ve proven that your level of Irish is good enough, because there are an awful lot of people out there (in any profession) who don’t have the professional integrity to do their job competently, if they know they can’t be sacked or let go.

Blush_01 · 01-07-2020 1:07pm

williaint wrote: »

Oh really ? Secondary school teachers of a MFL are only required to have B2 level at the time of registering with the TC. I myself have completed C1 and C2 certifications but they were not required to register or secure a job in Ireland (I needed them for teaching abroad).

So you think teachers of all subjects in Irish medium schools are C1 or C2 (native like)?

I think if you're teaching through that medium it'd make your life, and the experience for those in your class (where they're ultimately going to have to explain complex processes or ideas through that medium at exam time) a lot better, yes.

If you're not comfortable and fluent in the language you're using to teach, how will they have the vocabulary and finesse in the topics you're teaching them to excel?

williaint · 01-07-2020 1:44pm

Blush_01 wrote: »

I think if you're teaching through that medium it'd make your life, and the experience for those in your class (where they're ultimately going to have to explain complex processes or ideas through that medium at exam time) a lot better, yes.

If you're not comfortable and fluent in the language you're using to teach, how will they have the vocabulary and finesse in the topics you're teaching them to excel?

Oh I agree, I'm all for teachers having a high level of proficiency in both the target language and the language of instruction.

I was asking what the reality was in Gaelcholaisti (yes staff should all be C2 level but is that the reality?) and what certification I should follow if I intend to teach through the medium of Irish in the future. I don't know anyone who teaches in a Gaelcholaiste.

Avonoidea · 01-07-2020 7:29pm

I'd consider doing the TEG exams C1 up and checking out the courses from Gaelchultúr. As a parent, I would expect a high level of spoken and written Irish in the classroom. There's a Facebook page - Voice for Teachers - and you may get more help there.

Bobbins · 01-07-2020 9:47pm

This is a very interesting discussion. I posted on another forum recently about difficulties in trying to decide whether to send my child to a gaelscoil outside their community over the local rural national school. My preference would be for a gaelscoil but I'm really surprised reading these comments about the varying standard of fluency amongst teachers I wonder are there's situations whereby a national school delivering a very good standard of Irish could find themselves at the same level as a gaelscoil with teachers who aren't on par re fluency or does the immersion overcome any subpar fluency?

RealJohn · 02-07-2020 9:53am

I think Gaelscoileanna are safe enough, since it’s all Irish, all subjects, every class, all year, so I imagine that someone without good Irish wouldn’t last, and there isn’t the same shortage of teachers with Irish at primary level, since they’re all supposed to have good Irish (although it’s only a minority that actually do, outside of the Gaelscoileanna).

It’s more of an issue at secondary, since teachers aren’t expected to have Irish by rule, and some principals probably find themselves in the position where they can either hire someone who’s qualified in the subject they need, but has little or no Irish, and hope that person has the profession pride to actually learn, or hire nobody, and shoehorn an existing teacher in, who might not be qualified in the subject they’re teaching.

byhookorbycrook · 02-07-2020 1:49pm

I can only speak for Gaelscoileanna ( primary) but any school I know of would demand a high level of fluency . A teacher couldn’t function with a low level of language skills . Hence , Gaelscoileanna would have a mix of native speakers , teachers who went through school/college through Irish ikt took Irish to degree level .
All of our school day , bar teaching English is through Irish . In the staff room the teachers chat through Irish , all visitors are encouraged to use whatever Irish they have and even the likes of football training is done through Irish !

Avonoidea · 02-07-2020 3:07pm

The teachers at the Gaelscoil(bunscoil) in my town are excellent - mix of native speakers & non-native who are fluent. The majority of pupils then used to go to the only Gaelcholáiste in town but that is changing and more parents are sending their children to English-speaking secondaries as they were unable to get grinds for their children through Irish at secondary level.
It depends on your own set-up- if your child's friendship group is solely based in the community, it may impact on their peer relationships if they go to a different school. If your local school has a strong Irish-centred ethos, it will carry through to secondary.
All I can say is that the Gaelscoil/Bunscoil in my town has a supremely higher level of Irish than the Gaelcholáiste.

Gaelscoil Teachers - Fluency?

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