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Becoming a secondary school teacher

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    vast majority of teachers i graduated with from pretty much exactly the same background, white, rural (outside dublin)middle classes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    vast majority of teachers i graduated with from pretty much exactly the same background, white, rural (outside dublin)middle classes.

    Not sure why this needs to be stated. At least 95% (and probably higher) of the country are white, either Irish or other European nationality. We only had sizeable immigration into the country just over 15 years ago. It's going to be a long time before you see sizeable numbers of non-white trainee teachers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Not sure why this needs to be stated. At least 95% (and probably higher) of the country are white, either Irish or other European nationality. We only had sizeable immigration into the country just over 15 years ago. It's going to be a long time before you see sizeable numbers of non-white trainee teachers.

    White is being used as a measure of ethnic diversity (whether that be the appropriate term or not).

    It's not about seeing 'sizeable' numbers of non-white teachers, it's about seeing a 'proportionate' number. As quoted by the researcher:

    “Anyone working in education in the past ten 15 years will tell you that the single biggest development is the massive increase in minatory ethnic students in schools while at the same time, the teaching population has remained homogenous,” From Dr. Elaine Keane
    Keane, E. and Heinz, M. (2016) ‘Excavating an injustice? : nationality/ies, ethnicity/ies and experiences with diversity of initial teacher education applicants and entrants in Ireland in 2014’, European Journal of Teacher Education, 39(4), pp. 507–527. doi: 10.1080/02619768.2016.1194392.

    6 years on from the research would be a good time to reassess. But I suppose if the female/middle class hasn't changed much in decades then will the ethnic diversity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭corks finest


    It depends on the interview panel but (anecdotally) generally real world experience isn't hugely advantageous when it comes to teaching interviews.

    My son 17 is aiming to teach business etc in secondary,
    Hoping his GAA / soccer/ martial arts experience might give him some edge in tbe interview process
    ( Coaches kids already in tae Kwon do and did a bit in Gaelic football, currently a minor)
    He'd love a PE position but realistically that might not happen, he's bright doing good but might not attain sufficient points
    Any advice clearly appreciated, thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Treppen


    My son 17 is aiming to teach business etc in secondary,
    Hoping his GAA / soccer/ martial arts experience might give him some edge in tbe interview process
    ( Coaches kids already in tae Kwon do and did a bit in Gaelic football, currently a minor)
    He'd love a PE position but realistically that might not happen, he's bright doing good but might not attain sufficient points
    Any advice clearly appreciated, thanks.

    If he could live at home while at college and when he starts teaching (which will more than likely be occasional subwork ) for about the next 10 years. Then he has a chance to sweat it out till permanency.

    He'll probably consider going abroad to teach for a while too, but if he wants to come back and get his experience recognised then he has to choose a school carefully , many of the private schools abroad seem attractive but often the teaching council won't recognise them for experience.

    Given the economic climate every mother will be advising their child to get into teaching etc. expect to see the points rise.

    Tell him to stay on the good side of his school too and make himself known to the principal / deputy as much as possible (even if it's just going out of his way to great them with a big smile etc).

    If he has the Hons Irish primary would be relatively more secure than secondary.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Treppen wrote: »
    White is being used as a measure of ethnic diversity (whether that be the appropriate term or not).

    It's not about seeing 'sizeable' numbers of non-white teachers, it's about seeing a 'proportionate' number. As quoted by the researcher:

    “Anyone working in education in the past ten 15 years will tell you that the single biggest development is the massive increase in minatory ethnic students in schools while at the same time, the teaching population has remained homogenous,” From Dr. Elaine Keane


    6 years on from the research would be a good time to reassess. But I suppose if the female/middle class hasn't changed much in decades then will the ethnic diversity?



    It's going to take a lot longer than that, particularly with the Irish requirement for primary school teaching and students that land here after the age of 11 (I think it's 11) not needing to do Irish in school.

    And while I don't have studies to back it up, many children of immigrant families are living in homes where English isn't their first language. Some adapt really quickly and are fluent in English in no time and thrive, but many don't, and one of the factors there is often that English is not being spoken at home, so their access to education is more difficult because the only English they are speaking is at school potentially. I do see this with some students at school. If their English is poor they will find it difficult to do well at LC anyway, and that is not conducive to entering a third level course in this country, let alone a teacher training course. It will take more than one generation to see a percentage of non-nationals appearing in teacher training courses which reflects the percentage within the population as a whole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,078 ✭✭✭salonfire


    Treppen wrote: »
    If he could live at home while at college and when he starts teaching (which will more than likely be occasional subwork ) for about the next 10 years. Then he has a chance to sweat it out till permanency.

    .

    Are you going to mention the CID that could be given after two years or you want me to do it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    salonfire wrote: »
    Are you going to mention the CID that could be given after two years or you want me to do it?

    Could be. But only if teaching own hours, career break or secondment. Very rare to get CID after 2 years outside of key subjects in Dublin, and even then... And of course any CID is likely to be part time at first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,589 ✭✭✭corks finest


    Treppen wrote: »
    If he could live at home while at college and when he starts teaching (which will more than likely be occasional subwork ) for about the next 10 years. Then he has a chance to sweat it out till permanency.

    He'll probably consider going abroad to teach for a while too, but if he wants to come back and get his experience recognised then he has to choose a school carefully , many of the private schools abroad seem attractive but often the teaching council won't recognise them for experience.

    Given the economic climate every mother will be advising their child to get into teaching etc. expect to see the points rise.

    Tell him to stay on the good side of his school too and make himself known to the principal / deputy as much as possible (even if it's just going out of his way to great them with a big smile etc).

    If he has the Hons Irish primary would be relatively more secure than secondary.

    Thanks he's v well liked there already,good school,but jobs Irish doubt it tbh, we're connected to the school 59 plus years so hopefully that will help,abroad is an option,thanks for the heads up ref recognition etc after working in a private school abroad etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    Can you get such a thing as a part time CID? where you are given CID in a school with maybe 6 or 7 offical hours? would schools be more open to this thatn giving someone CID with 16-22 hours?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    Can you get such a thing as a part time CID? where you are given CID in a school with maybe 6 or 7 offical hours? would schools be more open to this thatn giving someone CID with 16-22 hours?

    You can get a CID for any amount of hours. If you go into a school on a small number of hours and continue working there the following year on the same small hours, then after those two years you could get a CID for say 6 hours. I've seen it in my own school.

    Depends on the situation. You could get one because of a situation like the one I've outlined above. You could be a Russian teacher who comes in 2 hours a week to teach Russian to TYs and end up with a 2 hour CID.

    CIDs can be increased over time. So if you got a CID for 8 hours after 2 years and the following year your hours were increased to 15, then you can apply for an improved CID reflecting those hours.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    wow ok, thank you so much. I am in a school on hours from last sept where the teacher is on secondment and probably wont be back, hes gone work for JCT. My official hours were 7 i think and add ons made up 12. I applied for another job in a brand new school opening in sept. Just as cover in case i am not asked back. Both schools are pretty much same distance. Really cant read what the story will be in my current school but i have maybe mentioned here that I would happily retire their in 30 years time, so I would be delighted to take 7 hors CID and build my way up through the years in that school. Great to know, please God I will get the place again this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    wow ok, thank you so much. I am in a school on hours from last sept where the teacher is on secondment and probably wont be back, hes gone work for JCT. My official hours were 7 i think and add ons made up 12. I applied for another job in a brand new school opening in sept. Just as cover in case i am not asked back. Both schools are pretty much same distance. Really cant read what the story will be in my current school but i have maybe mentioned here that I would happily retire their in 30 years time, so I would be delighted to take 7 hors CID and build my way up through the years in that school. Great to know, please God I will get the place again this year.

    Has the principal indicated when interviews might take place? Are the hours you are currently teaching likely to be there next year, i.e. not made up of resource hours which can change from year to year? Have you spoken to the principal about hours for next year?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    to be honest with all that is happening i am giving her a chance to draw breath, i dont want to be in on top of her with queries this week but keeping an eye on education posts every day. the hours are 5th year history and 1st year history with 1st year CSPE, along then with other TY modules. so theres a few solid hours. I think i have put in a very solid year and contributed to the school. but i am very 50-50 about my chances i a have heard to many stories of people being burned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Treppen


    salonfire wrote: »
    Are you going to mention the CID that could be given after two years or you want me to do it?

    No I don't want you to do it because you aren't a teacher and haven't a clue how long these 2 year CIDs 'could' take to get.

    My CID took ten years to get after qualifying. That was back when CIDs took 4 years... you remember that ya?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Treppen


    <snip>

    History is relatively common to replace. Principal will be looking at the overall needs of the school so maybe have an eye on other subjects which need a teacher who also has history. Then again he might prefer to have 3 teachers on 7 hours each with a lot of wriggle room between subjects. Moreso than tying down an unknown teacher to full hours.

    Expect zero favours when it comes to next year, no matter how much work you've put in.

    Plenty of teachers posted on here about jobs falling through in a new school term too, so once you've no contract in hand you really have nothing. Not saying to accept every job going... but don't take your foot off the pedal in August. Might be worth your while doing interviews then as it's closer to the time of new year, moreso than taking a job now and assuming it's yours in September.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,198 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    Can you get such a thing as a part time CID? where you are given CID in a school with maybe 6 or 7 offical hours? would schools be more open to this thatn giving someone CID with 16-22 hours?

    My first CID was for 1.25 hours.

    :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    <snip quote>

    I would always apply for jobs in your subject areas. Obviously we are not in school but I think I told you, I would be having a chat with the principal. Maybe an email enquiring about your future in the school. They know the numbers and hours available. If there is nothing for you, thank them for the experience and ask for a reference. Say that you want the development of that module to be mentioned..

    Re CID, I was looking for the circular but can't find it the moment but the gist of it is, a CID teacher on part time basis in a school should be offered any available hours until they have full timetable before new staff can be employed. So you have security and are entitled to those hours.

    Found that circular, its 49/2017. It is an amendment on to the previous circulars contained in the file.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,840 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    great thanks for the help!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    great thanks for the help!

    Make sure you join the union and have your contracts, copies of your timetable (they go from VSWare end of the month) and the educationposts advertisements.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭Treppen


    <snip>
    I just don't know, I'm just giving you things to consider. Gotta look after number one, it's funny how some teachers are apprehensive about applying for other jobs in case they'd let the school down, but at the same time the Principal or Deputy might be applying for other roles every month.

    You sound like a teacher that any school should be glad to have you though. Just keep an open mind and expect no favo....... oh wait, did you say GAA?... Have you ever considered doing a Leadership and Management Postgrad :pac::pac::pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Dickie10 wrote: »
    to be honest with all that is happening i am giving her a chance to draw breath, i dont want to be in on top of her with queries this week.

    It’s her job to manage the staffing allocation. She knows what allocation she has for next year so has a pretty good idea if she has hours for you or not. It’s not being cheeky looking to know if there
    is a job for you next year when we are three weeks from the end of the school year.

    I’d echo what other posters have said. Unless you have confirmation of that job you need to keep looking. You’re not indispensable. I watch teachers retire regularly who did Trojan work and did 35+ years in the school and you think before they retire ‘how will she be replaced?’ and they retire and are replaced and you rarely hear their name mentioned any more a couple of months down the line. Nobody is irreplaceable. Find out where you stand for next year and keep looking in the meantime.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    That's good news. Be careful posting on the internet ... you don't know who reads this. You have the majority of your phone call with principal and your own particular talents and subjects that you can bring to a school. You may need to rethink the above. This is the reason I didn't reply to your thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭Saint_Mel


    Good thread ... in a similar position myself, working in IT for 20something years but had hopes of getting into teaching.
    Little longer route for me, as I worked in between my college qualifications. My degree (which was a 1 year add on) only qualifies
    for Computer Studies/Science with the TC (although did have a math analysis module) .... but I previously done a 2 year Cert in Computing in the mid 90's which had Maths in both years. Went on to do a 1 year add on Diploma but no Maths there. More recently done a Masters which had a Stats module but as far as I can see the TC only look at the Degree year and as I went through the old system of separate Cert-Dip-Deg route, I don't know if anything before my 1 year add on Deg is recognised


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    You'd have to get onto them to ask. I thought anything from undergraduate years counted. But either way, I'd be more concerned with you getting an employable subject. No principal is going to employ someone just for Computers. Unless you're thinking of the further education route. At most schools would have 1 5th and 1 6th year class of Computer Science. Last I checked 20 schools did the subject (granted it's only just started).
    If you went through the Open University you could get a maths degree (double check with TC beforehand). It's a long and expensive route though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭stiofan85


    Really helpful thread. I'm similar to OP in terms of career and age. Nearly there in committing to changing career and going through the motions on research

    I meet the requirements for maths, physics, engineering, or computer science. Maths seems a no-brainer. What would have more demand: Physics, engineering of Computer Science?

    thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    stiofan85 wrote: »
    Really helpful thread. I'm similar to OP in terms of career and age. Nearly there in committing to changing career and going through the motions on research

    I meet the requirements for maths, physics, engineering, or computer science. Maths seems a no-brainer. What would have more demand: Physics, engineering of Computer Science?

    thanks

    If you meet the requirements for all of them, then register for all of them with the Teaching Council. Do you have two degrees?

    Physics is the least popular science subject at Leaving Cert, but it's hard to get physics teachers. There's also the fact that it's usually tied in with JC Science. There's probably more doing physics than engineering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    stiofan85 wrote: »
    Really helpful thread. I'm similar to OP in terms of career and age. Nearly there in committing to changing career and going through the motions on research

    I meet the requirements for maths, physics, engineering, or computer science. Maths seems a no-brainer. What would have more demand: Physics, engineering of Computer Science?

    thanks

    This would be an almost unique situation to be in - have you completed several degrees?

    Engineering is different from most subjects in that you have to compete a specialist teacher training programme for it (like Construction, Home Ec, PE) so it's not an option for the regular PME.

    Physics would give better prospects than Computer Science for the moment, but since CS is a new subject that could change. You can do all three though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭stiofan85


    This would be an almost unique situation to be in - have you completed several degrees?

    Engineering is different from most subjects in that you have to compete a specialist teacher training programme for it (like Construction, Home Ec, PE) so it's not an option for the regular PME.

    Physics would give better prospects than Computer Science for the moment, but since CS is a new subject that could change. You can do all three though.

    Yeah, I've a few pieces of paper.

    Didn't realise that about engineering, I'll look into it. Thanks


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭Notorious


    Just thought I'd post some advice (also words of warning) as a teacher to IT sector employees thinking of moving into teaching. I notice a few posters have suggested it here.

    I completed a postgrad in Software Development as I have been teaching coding to further ed students for the last five years. I also teach second level in two other subjects and I thought I'd officially add another string to my bow, especially since coding is being integrated into the LC program.

    Long story short, the teaching council have consistently told me that they're not registering teachers as Comp Sci teachers at the moment. Recently they haven't been replying to my emails, and I last spoke to someone in the teaching council in December. I keep being told that the TC haven't set the criteria for registering as a Comp Sci teacher, even though they told me before I began the postgrad that a course with 120 credits would enable me to register.

    Some schools are running the Comp Sci programme with LC students so it baffles me as to how a teacher can't register with the subject.


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