Suicide and men.

dereks · 30-08-2013 2:56pm

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Good days and bad days.More good than bad at the moment thankfully. It's a battle that never ends though and is never likely to. No matter how well things may be going, no matter how well I might be feeling, every morning there's the potential for me to awake feeling wholly wretched about more or less everything.

I get moments when I am so glad I am still here (kissing an awesome lass I only met after all this happened, the excitement of a 5 year old kid whose life I play a major role in on Christmas eve, a late winner for my League of Ireland team after being two down... actually that was the same night as the kiss now that I think of it). However I also have days when I wish with all my heart that I had gone through with it and am furious with myself for not seeing it through.

It's a battle. A daily battle and sometimes one of minutes. But as long as I'm willing to keep fighting it's worth fighting for I suppose.

Your story sounds very similar to that of my friend. I have nothing but admiration for people who suffer from depression and find the will to keep fighting it. They are an inspiration to others.

I know from my friend how difficult he found it. I hope he's in a better place now.

I also hope you'll always have more good days then bad and can keep on fighting.

limklad · 30-08-2013 8:50pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

..I think once people realise somebody has mental issues they abandon them!

I agree with you. They (the one who abandon/ridicule those who need help) are the true cowards.

recourse · 30-08-2013 9:42pm

Vision of Disorder wrote: »

Good days and bad days.More good than bad at the moment thankfully. It's a battle that never ends though and is never likely to. No matter how well things may be going, no matter how well I might be feeling, every morning there's the potential for me to awake feeling wholly wretched about more or less everything.

I get moments when I am so glad I am still here (kissing an awesome lass I only met after all this happened, the excitement of a 5 year old kid whose life I play a major role in on Christmas eve, a late winner for my League of Ireland team after being two down... actually that was the same night as the kiss now that I think of it). However I also have days when I wish with all my heart that I had gone through with it and am furious with myself for not seeing it through.

It's a battle. A daily battle and sometimes one of minutes. But as long as I'm willing to keep fighting it's worth fighting for I suppose.

Don't loose the Battle, If you are suffering from depression feel free to reach out, PM me in private and you will always have an ear to listen to. As bad your situation is, leaving a hole in the hearts of your loved ones is no answer, you just sow a circle of grieve and depression and pass it to others who end up asking for years "WHY"...

I might make a suggestion that you try and change as much as possible your life, sometimes there are triggers of depression you are not aware of, and some practical changes can help (like avoiding Alcohol completely for a period, travelling, or doing some volunteer work) there is no hard and fast rule in this area.. but if you need help reach out, don't be a stranger.

Vision of Disorder · 02-09-2013 2:59pm

recourse wrote: »

Don't loose the Battle, If you are suffering from depression feel free to reach out, PM me in private and you will always have an ear to listen to. As bad your situation is, leaving a hole in the hearts of your loved ones is no answer, you just sow a circle of grieve and depression and pass it to others who end up asking for years "WHY"...

I might make a suggestion that you try and change as much as possible your life, sometimes there are triggers of depression you are not aware of, and some practical changes can help (like avoiding Alcohol completely for a period, travelling, or doing some volunteer work) there is no hard and fast rule in this area.. but if you need help reach out, don't be a stranger.

Many, many thanks for that message. I have a fairly great support network (some with similar stories to mine, some not) but you can never have enough and I appreciate that offer greatly. In the here and now I feel reasonable enough that I can talk quite openly to people about anything but I remember a day last summer when I felt wretched and, while walking home, knew I needed to talk to somebody. I scrolled through every number in my phone and felt I couldn't call any of them (incorrectly and unfairly, several had already implored me to call anytime, day or night). When you feel as I felt then though, it's hard to keep perspective on that. Feeling I couldn't talk to anybody just made me feel more isolated and lonely and, by extension, even worse.

I moved back to the countryside in April and changed jobs at the same time. That was a suitably large change for now I feel.

As for alcohol, I've actually never drank (I never felt it would be good for me, even at 15/16 when most of my friends started), perhaps that is the problem! (poor joke, apologies to all) :P

The Black Oil · 05-09-2013 3:20pm

The latest NOSP suicide and self-harm figures were released today. Men aged 20-24 are a high risk group. For some reason I had thought it was 18-late 20s. Anyway, hopefully these figures will down (though they're probably still underestimated overall in Ireland) and stigma will be reduced.

human24365 · 15-09-2013 12:32am

Medical Science has no answer for the person who becomes addicted to suicidal thinking. Mental Health professionals depend on mood altering medications. The decision to end ones life is a choice made by an individual. There comes a moment when a person decides they do not want to go on living. They have a method that ultimately they think suits them, quick or slow painless as possible or painful as possible. Feelings buried can surface and overwhelm and can kill. If a person sees no other solution, as already mentioned here they will end their lives. Why do I say this, well over my life I secretly wanted to end my life on a regular basis, as results of desperation over several addictions that cost me dearly in human terms and financially. I am in my sixties now and have survived 12 unsuccessful attempts. I could not survive by my will power or instinct to live no matter what. I had to reach out to another person who was addicted to suicidal thinking. We have succeeded in keeping each other away from the thinking that leads us to Suicide.

Vision of Disorder · 16-09-2013 12:09pm

human24365 wrote: »

Medical Science has no answer for the person who becomes addicted to suicidal thinking.

It's like Pandora's Box isn't it? I found in my own experience that there is sometimes comfort in the knowledge that the option is there, like the red button waiting to be pressed as a final resort. The problems arise obviously when the thoughts themselves no longer act as a release.

human24365 · 19-09-2013 6:40pm

Hi Vision of Disorder, Your term for the process that leads a person to end their life, "Pandora's Box" is very descriptive. You got the way out of this Box, Well Done! I found the buzz of fear, elation, Yes nothing can touch me while I am buzzing between fear and elation, now no matter what happens I have this safe place to retreat too and I can spend hours there. Any harm that comes to my life will not matter as I have the final solution within my grasp.

iptba · 20-09-2013 3:14pm

New Research:

2008 economic crisis could be to blame for thousands of excess suicides worldwide
Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 15:06

Research: Impact of 2008 global economic crisis on suicide: time trend study in 54 countries

In a paper published today on bmj.com, researchers are suggesting that the 2008 global economic crisis could be to blame for the increase in suicide rates in European and American countries, particularly among males and in countries with higher levels of job losses.

Press release continues at: http://www.bmj.com/press-releases/2013/09/17/2008-economic-crisis-could-be-blame-thousands-excess-suicides-worldwide

Paper itself is at: "Impact of 2008 global economic crisis on suicide: time trend study in 54 countries" http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5239

BobTheNihilist · 30-11-2013 4:24pm

Might as well bump this ta f**K.

Xmas will be upon us shortly. Suicide rates are high this time of year. A lot of break ups, serious arguments and money worries fuels this.

please talk to somebody if you feel down or in despair.

Sauve · 30-11-2013 5:52pm

Good bump Bob

Gonna leave this stickies for a while, given the season we're heading into.

LegacyUser · 03-12-2013 8:06pm

BobTheNihilist wrote: »

Might as well bump this ta f**K.

Xmas will be upon us shortly. Suicide rates are high this time of year. A lot of break ups, serious arguments and money worries fuels this.

please talk to somebody if you feel down or in despair.

Good time for your bump BobThe Nihilist,
Thank U for your "Suggestion" reachout beyond yourself to break the cycle of thoughts that lead you to this final solution. There are little "mantras" that some people use, such as, "Look back in Anger, Look forward in Hope" Repetition until the negative cycle of thought and feeling is broken.
Each "Survivor" develops their own personal method. All it takes is "willingness" to try.

iptba · 23-02-2014 1:22am

From Thursday's Guardian newspaper:

Britain's male suicide rate is a national tragedy

Our failure over 30 years to even dent the number of men who kill themselves is a scandal that has cost thousands of lives

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/20/britain-male-suicide-rate-tragedy-failure

D'Agger · 25-02-2014 2:15pm

This 'article' was posted on Reddit r/Ireland yesterday, figure it might spark some debate here.

I don't suffer from depression, I've attended funerals of people who've committed suicide but I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I've managed to avoid being near the epicentre of a suicide related death but even I know that Doherty is looking at this from one side, he's acting under the assumption that people who take their lives are thinking logically - leaving his article way off the mark IMO. A topic as sensitive as this deserved more research & thought, from a national broadsheet you'd expect more.

Pawwed Rig · 25-02-2014 2:25pm

Very naive article that completely fails to understand why someone takes their own life. He seems to favour the stigmatisation of it again which harks back to the church days and the criminalisation of the act. Fairly irresponsible of the Indo I think.

Knex* · 25-02-2014 2:51pm

That article is pretty bad, you're right D'Agger.

Two main things stood out for me in this short passage below:

Instead, we're given the usual platitudes about how the person who, under the current code of language 'died by suicide' (as if they went out and forgot to wrap up, thus catching a bad dose of suicide) must have been going through some unbearable internal, tectonic pressure that finally cracked.

And, of course, that is true. To a point.

The bolded I found to fairly insensitive and showed an inkling into his lack of understanding as to what suicide is. Also, I don't really get what his point is, at all. If we change the word "by" to "from", is that suddenly different, and more correct in his eyes, as we also say phrases such as, "Died from cancer"?

Being a smart ass when it comes to suicide and mental illness is a bit much, especially when you're writing what appears to be intended as a serious article about the problem that is suicide in Ireland today. "Catching a bad dose of suicide", that part, for me, made him seem like a dick, for want of a better term.

Moving on..

But people who prefer to talk about the unique, existential pain of the 'victim' are deliberately avoiding one of the most common emotions felt by those left behind. And that is one of almost unbearable, fruitless anger at that person for doing what they did.

He reinforces his complete lack of understanding here for me.

Having had some friends commit suicide in recent years, one a workmate with whom I became good enough friends with, and another a kid from my local area with whom we had all grown up alongside, I certainly did not feel anger at them. I felt sad, I felt empathy towards both the people themselves and the mental torment they went through, and also to their family. I suppose I even felt a bit of pity, although I'd certainly rather say it was all empathy.

When I was younger and I first heard about suicide and listened to people getting angry about it (I remember one fella call his mate a "wanker" for doing so), I was perhaps on the side of those who got angry. What are these people throwing away? Why are they doing it? How could they be so dumb? How could they do this to their friends and family?

But knowing what I know now, and I won't pretend to have any first hand experience of depression - I don't and I'm aware I can never fully understand what it is like because of it - I don't see these as being the right questions to be asking, nor the right attitude to have.

A lot of the posts on boards have helped me massively with this mindset. Hearing people's first hand accounts of their turmoil and what they go through, it really helps to add depth to perspective.

I haven't really structured this answer very well, and I'm perhaps too rushed to give this topic the justice that it deserves in that regard, but one thing that always stands out from conversations on suicide for me;

Some people say its the coward's way out. In many cases, I honestly think its one of the bravest things you can do. I know for one I wouldn't be able to do it.

He then finishes it all of with this, and its something I actually had to do a double take on. I don't think I even need to point out why this is beyond ridiculous and insensitive

we are queasy and reluctant to apportion blame to the perpetrator. And someone who kills themselves should be seen as exactly that – the perpetrator, not some innocent bystander

(Think I may have to come back to this post and edit it later)

Pawwed Rig · 25-02-2014 2:57pm

Good post Knex.

The comments on the article itself are more read worthy that the article.

Knex* · 25-02-2014 3:01pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Good post Knex.

The comments on the article itself are more read worthy that the article.

Hadn't spotted them before I posted. Some very valid retorts (pretty much what they are) to his article there.

Glad he's getting called up on that shoddy journalism.

Porkpie · 25-02-2014 6:01pm

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Way to go to make suicidal people feel even worse about their situation. I'm sure they think plenty about the mess it will leave behind and feel awful about it but their pain has become just too unbearable. I remember someone saying before about depression, imagine getting your leg cut off - you would do anything to stop the pain. You don't know what these poor people are going through.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Sorry but that's just ridiculous and to be honest it sounds a little patronising.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

It's not that simple. No one just decides, for example 'oh my girlfriend just dumped me, everything was rosey, now I'm a little blue so I'll do myself in'.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

And while you're at it, why not start your own company and write an autobiography?

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

If only. Your advice might be helpful to someone who's feeling a little down or unfulfilled but I don't think you have much of an understanding of the serious issue of depression/suicide.

Ash.J.Williams · 25-02-2014 6:06pm

One thing ive noticed over the years is that people do not kill themselves becasue they're a bit sad or in a spot of bother....they seem to kill themselves because something is telling them there is NO other way.

Knex* · 25-02-2014 6:19pm

Depression, and feeling suicidal, is not sadness. Not by most people's understanding of the word anyway.

Call Me Jimmy · 25-02-2014 7:49pm

It's standing in front of a concrete wall with it permanently 2 inches from your face and not being able to move in any direction. For me, if I were physically imprisoned it would make very little difference to how my life is lived, might possibly even be an improvement.

That is the sort of depths that are involved, and arguably there is a lot worse. That author just has no understanding, which is obvious, so I wouldn't take anything he says too seriously.

Soft Falling Rain · 26-02-2014 5:13pm

D'Agger wrote: »

This 'article' was posted on Reddit r/Ireland yesterday, figure it might spark some debate here.

I don't suffer from depression, I've attended funerals of people who've committed suicide but I'm lucky enough to be able to say that I've managed to avoid being near the epicentre of a suicide related death but even I know that Doherty is looking at this from one side, he's acting under the assumption that people who take their lives are thinking logically - leaving his article way off the mark IMO. A topic as sensitive as this deserved more research & thought, from a national broadsheet you'd expect more.

From the article:

Perhaps it's time to focus not merely on suicide prevention, but suicide shaming – how this act of selfishness will rip apart your entire family and they will never, ever be the same again.

No-one should be "shamed" into anything. I understand the point he's trying to make but he has put it across in a deeply crass manner.

I believe people should always reach out, no matter how hard it is because I firmly believe people can be helped through such a dark period. But the last thing I want to see is someone suffering silently and "getting on with things", just because they feel they owe something to their loved ones. I want people to reach out for themselves, not for others.

old hippy · 26-02-2014 5:18pm

I've been at a very low point lately & it gets right up my nostrils when someone comes over and just dismisses this very serious issue, or worse still, calls it selfish. What if you can't get past the hurt/upset/self loathing/abuse/inherent sadness or whatever it is that ails you?

Vision of Disorder · 27-02-2014 9:59pm

For what little it's worth when I've been down I've taken quite a lot from reading the stories of others who have experienced similar struggles in their lives. Both "A Life Too Short" about German goalkeeper Robert Enke and "Wrestling Reality" about pro wrestler Chris Kanyon were extremely helpful to me at different times.

It helped to know that there were other people out there who had gone through what I was, it helped to normalise things for me and realise that other people had felt like I had, that I wasn't broken. There were parts in both books that I could empathise with on a level that surprised me.

And sadly, given the eventual suicide of both men in question, their books brought home to me the importance of constant vigilance and helped make me aware that this is something I will probably have to battle against all my life.

It may help others to pick up either or both of those books, just figured it was worth sharing.

iptba · 19-03-2014 5:47am

(13 March 2014)

Viewpoint: Is macho culture causing young men to take their own lives?

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26543095

D'Agger · 19-03-2014 12:11pm

Good article iptba, I feel like it only barely scratches the surface though regarding the macho culture.

The two main things I took from it were the astonishing statistic on suicide being the leading cause of death for men between 20 & 49, and the point he makes about mental health in schools being as important as physical education - it really is and it's something that should be addressed.

These aren't necessarily related to that article, but they're some thoughts that have come to mind since reading it that might generate some discussion here:

Younger men are more susceptible to being influenced by what they see in the media and right now the main things being promoted are, dress sharp, get a nice watch, a nice car, get nice things, and while you're at it, get a nice body in the gym and you'll get a nice looking missus as a direct result of that. And the thing is, I've bought into it somewhat, I feel like most men do. I want to earn more money, have a nicer car than I currently have etc. but the difference is, I don't ever feel like this will define me.

We live in a society where you're judged on appearance, this isn't a new concept either, it's been around for decades, nay, centuries. The key, so far as I'm concerned, is to invest some of yourself to this if you wish, but never give all of yourself to it. Balance is key. If you commit too much towards an ideal you strive towards, then, imo, you'll either be left feeling unfulfilled when you reach the goal and immediately seek a new challenge, or you'll despair if that goal isn't reached. Too much time spent working for more money, in the gym working towards the perfect body, looking through esquire etc. for what you should be wearing is not going to develop you as a person or allow you to learn much about yourself.

iptba · 07-09-2014 3:18am

(August 31 article)

Why Suicide Is a Men's Issue

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jimmy-ocean/suicide-is-a-mens-issue_b_5710141.html

iptba · 13-10-2014 3:48am

(October 7 article)

Professor Damien Ridge
Professor of Health Studies at the University of Westminster

Does the Answer to Helping Distressed Men Rest With You?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/professor-damien-ridge/does-the-answer-to-helping-distressed-men-rest-with-you_b_5939558.html

And here lies the rub. We blame men for not getting help. But we don't talk about how we have first socialised men to be on their own, to keep their emotional vulnerability hidden. Subsequently, we get uncomfortable when we see men cry, or otherwise vulnerable. We may even mock men for it. I have seen partners say they are thinking of leaving their man who shows their softer emotions.

The more I think about it, the more I think that masculinity is actually something that exists outside of men. It exists in your eyes. Because you have all these expectations about how men will be. Perhaps you think they should be strong, sexy and silent? As a professional, you may dread seeing upset men walk through your door because of the discomfort it raises in you. Whatever your perspective, you have strong views about how you want men to be.

We have decided as a society not to provide people with the mental health help they need. We might as well have said that we will treat cancer, but not infections. But we have gone further with men. We are even more reluctant to give distressed men the help they need because of our particular investment in masculinity. Is it you who believes that boys will be boys? That there is nothing we can do to stop men committing suicide?

Have you ever thought that the problem with masculinity rests with you? It is not that men won't get help for vulnerability. Perhaps reluctant men are just being realistic about your response based on past experiences? They suspect they will be judged not only for their mental health, but on their masculinity. It is time to change.

DoYouEvenLift · 13-10-2014 5:04am

ted1 wrote: »

I think sucide is the cowards way out, and no thought is giving to the mess it'll leave behind.

Nothing in life is that bad, that you need to end life, there's so many adventurers that have yet to be bad.

Why kill yourself over work , a girl , a debt etc.

Why not just buy a motorbike and back pack your way through Russia, Asia etc

In a few weeks all your problems wil feel a million life times ago.

Try maintaining this little opinion of yours if you ever encounter depression and other mental health issues. And I'm not talking about this pathetic misuse of the term depression losers seem to be using more commonly nowadays where they fail a sh!tty exam or encounter other trivial bullsh!t and claim they're depressed, I'm talking about true anguish where every conscious second is another second of agonising mental pain where the only way out they can think of, since they're not in a good state of mind to look for help, is putting a permanent end to it all. And lots of people who even do manage to seek help are just treated like an experiment and given medication that can make them even worse until their next session and so on.

People like this guy are why a lot of men still aren't comfortable talking about their problems, I bet he could have a close friend approach him looking for comfort and advice and a likely response of his would be "man up!"

Edit: strong bumped thread

Suicide and men.

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