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Will new Viessmann system save me money?

  • 13-07-2020 11:20am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭


    Hi All,

    I had an annual boiler service last week. I currently have a Potterton Performa System HE - it's about 12 years old and it's running in my four bedroom semi detached house. The service guy said that while most things were in good shape a couple of the flue seals (for the burner, spiggot and elbow) were a bit worn and needed to be replaced soon. He also said something about the pressure buildings up and recommended that an external 12ltr expansion vessel be fitted in the hot press.

    Obviously this would all cost money (ball patk €400+VAT) and he suggested that another option was to install a new boiler - he was recommending a 30KW Viessmann system boiler with a 5 year parts and labour warranty. He was saying that the Potterton was a very early condenser boiler and that the Viessmann would be much more efficient and save money on my monthly gas bill.

    So, what do you guys think - is there likely to be much of a monthly saving? The cost of the new boiler install is in the region of €2,800 +VAT apparently....

    Thanks for any input.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭John.G


    Since both are HE (condensing) boilers then its hard to imagine any huge differences in efficiencies, IMO, probably 3 to 5% at best as a HE boiler realistically gives ~ 7 to 12% improved efficiency over a SE (non condensing) boiler as most condensing boilers are rarely in condensing mode with standard controls, a print out of the flue gas analysis for that last service including the flue gas temperature would tell a lot.

    Its also important now with zoning, improved insulation and outside temperature compensation to get a boiler with the biggest modulation ratio possible to avoid constant cycling with reduced load, some boilers can modulate to give as low as 1.9kw now, if you know the proposed viessmann model then you should be able to see this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    Firstly John, thank you for your reply - it's much appreciated. The read out you refer to I think is as attached?

    The engineer was suggesting the Viessmann could get me a 15-20% saving over my current boiler.

    Is there a typical lifespan for one a boiler? Mine is approximately 12 years old - do these things go end of life after 10-15 years or can they keep trucking for 20-30 years? I get it serviced every year or eighteen months but the service never takes too long - an hour or so (I recall reading previously that service levels can vary dramatically).

    All that I received on the post service report and quote for potential work was "30kw Viessmann system boiler 5 year parts and labour warranty". There was no further information on the model of boiler.

    If I don't get a new boiler the guy is suggesting I need:

    - Flue seals for burner,spiggot and elbow
    - Installation of external 12ltr expansion Vessel
    - 1 x Boiler mag filter

    Aside, I think I need a new water pump (the current one started making loud noises every time it kicked in over the last few weeks) and he is suggesting the impeller is broken (he didn't open it but based this on the sound) and is recommending a new Grundfos Scala2 pump. He also said that the current setup does not have a bypass and thus has quoted for a "auto fill valve and bypass.".

    All in all, the service is looking to have thrown up a lot of items. I'm thinking I need the pump and maybe new seals - I'm not sure if I need a new boiler or not.

    Any input is much appreciated. Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,716 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Christ, over 3k for a new boiler install? Is he running a new gas main to the boiler. Seems very expensive. 12-15 years is the life expectancy alright. You must have an enormous house if it’s a 30kw boiler? Only with zoning and weather comp might you make savings.
    IMO Viessman are overrated and over priced boilers made of mostly plastic with a good heat exchanger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    Hi Dtp1979 - the guy described it as an "easy install". There is no pipe running -and the boiler is very assesible. I think it's a case of out with the old and in with the new. The boiler is in a utility room press. In fairness, the guy is not saying I have to go for a new boiler. He is saying that I should replace seals on the existing one as they are starting to show wear and that I should also get an expansion vessel (something to do with the pressure not releasing properly which could cause issues across the system over time).

    The house is a four bed semi detached - about 2,000 square foot I guess.

    I'm not sure I fully understand the talk of zoning and weather comp.

    I have underfloor heating downstairs, with a manifold controlling four zones. Upstairs I have rads in bedrooms and separately controlled towel radiators.

    Engineer was very enthused by Viessman - saying they were the first to stainless-steel (I nodded a lot though as much of the stuff he was saying went over my head).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Man with broke phone


    What I'd be more worried about is downtime.

    It will be more efficient, and it will start costing money but the worst thing is it will start breaking down. And it wont brake down until that time of year when everybodies boilers start breaking down. I'd be more asking myself can I go a week or two in the cold because I have an old unreliable boiler.
    I would get a second and maybe third quote If you can get one.

    The cheapest doesnt mean the best though.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    What I'd be more worried about is downtime.

    It will be more efficient, and it will start costing money but the worst thing is it will start breaking down. And it wont brake down until that time of year when everybodies boilers start breaking down. I'd be more asking myself can I go a week or two in the cold because I have an old unreliable boiler.
    I would get a second and maybe third quote If you can get one.

    The cheapest doesnt mean the best though.

    Indeed - I wouldn't fancy no hot water and I can't imagine the wife and kids would either. I'm working from home now too, so couldn't even shower in work.

    I would point out that I've had no issues with the boiler. The engineer was implying saying that some seals were "starting to show wear" and should be replaced. He then suggested that there might be a cost saving long term in getting a new boiler, rather than putting money in to the existing one. The existing one has not given us any issues as of now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,046 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I paid 2800 all in to have a Viessmann installed last year, but it was less than 30 kw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,716 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Op you don’t need 30kw. Complete overkill. 24kw max. As for the price, I still don’t see where 3k is coming in. Viessmann are overpriced, but not THAT overpriced


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Op you don’t need 30kw. Complete overkill. 24kw max. As for the price, I still don’t see where 3k is coming in. Viessmann are overpriced, but not THAT overpriced

    Thanks Dtp1979 - I'll get another plumper to look at my setup. I need to get the new water pump so I'll start by getting a quote for that and in the process get a view on the boiler.

    Apparently all trades are really busy at the moment, so it might not be that easy to get quotes - I'll see and I'll post back here when I have more info.

    Thanks again for your help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,465 ✭✭✭John.G


    The pump, a grundfos scala2, that you are renewing is for boosting the mains? so has to be replaced anyhow. I presume you havn't got a combi boiler without a hot water cylinder.
    The output of your existing boiler should be stamped somewhere on it so will give you some idea of the power required as 30kw as stated above seems a big overkill.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    John.G wrote: »
    The pump, a grundfos scala2, that you are renewing is for boosting the mains? so has to be replaced anyhow. I presume you havn't got a combi boiler without a hot water cylinder.
    The output of your existing boiler should be stamped somewhere on it so will give you some idea of the power required as 30kw as stated above seems a big overkill.

    Sorry for the delayed reply John - busy day.

    Yes, I have a hot water cylinder under our stairs.

    The existing Potterton boiler is a Performa System 28 HE. I’m guessing the 28 refers to 28kw?

    Cheers


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,716 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    Sorry for the delayed reply John - busy day.

    Yes, I have a hot water cylinder under our stairs.

    The existing Potterton boiler is a Performa System 28 HE. I’m guessing the 28 refers to 28kw?

    Cheers

    Just because you’re original installer oversizes the boiler Dosent Mean the new guy should.
    How many hot water draw off points do you have out of intrest?


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    Dtp1979 wrote: »
    Just because you’re original installer oversizes the boiler Dosent Mean the new guy should.
    How many hot water draw off points do you have out of intrest?

    If I understand your question correctly we have hot water to the kitchen and a utility room, a wet room downstairs (sink and shower), bathroom upstairs (bath, shower, sink) and an en suite (sink and shower). Potentially we may convert our attic in the future and want to put in an ensuite up there.

    I've reached out to another plumber and am waiting to hear back from him - wiht a view to getting another price on the new pump I think I definitely need (the existing one is making very loud noises when it kicks in) and I will ask him about the boiler in the process.

    Cheers!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭whizbang


    On gas use alone, taking a wild guess at your bill , say €1500; your payback time for that new boiler will be about 50 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 134 ✭✭BenAndJerry


    whizbang wrote: »
    On gas use alone, taking a wild guess at your bill , say €1500; your payback time for that new boiler will be about 50 years.

    Indeed - fair point!


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