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Housing Crisis and Immigration?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭victor8600


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    There should never be social housing built as there once was. The worst areas in the country are all former council housing. After 60 + years these are still causing trouble and the worst areas. Never again. They also should never have sold social housing to the tenants at massive discounts.

    Of course, don't build ghettos for poor people. And selling council houses was a mistake IMO too. But more social housing needs to be built, not just for the sake of people who can not afford to buy a house or to pay the full rent, but also as a way to control private rents. Currently, the rents are out of control, and the government is supporting higher rents by paying private landlords to house social tenants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Edgware wrote: »
    Why is it that all the Miguels and Ivankas seem to be able to get work but a lot of the Decos and Jacintas dont?

    That would be your imagination.

    Where I live there is a noticeable increase in the amount of non-irish that are simply standing around the streets all day. And a few irish people upto the same lark.

    No, that doesn't mean all immigrants are like that. Equally, not all irish people are like.

    All anecdotes. Meanwhile, the numbers are going up and up in actual reality.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    beejee wrote: »
    "I ate a mars bar earlier"

    Response. "No! You are completely misleading, you ate 4/5ths of a mars bar!"

    That was a close one alright, phew! All the important information, no stone left unturned. Changes everything.

    4/5ths? There you are being completely misleading and disingenuous again. If you think a little lane at the back of Dorset St where almost no one lives according to another poster here, is 4/5ths of Dorset St then it might be time to go back to 4th class maths


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    My mother lives in a 5 bed house on her own. How much space do you think she needs to herself? It is already beginning to be too much for her and she needs to downsize. Her neighbour is in a 6 bed house with a pool room and she has never played pool in her life.
    The real problem is they want to stay in the area and there is nothing to downsize to. They could easily split one of the houses into 2 or 3 and have plenty of space separate for each.
    I am not suggesting they take lodgers.

    Its definitely a fair point. One person for a 5 bedroom house is a bit overkill.

    On the otherhand it is nice, isn't it, having that space of freedom? Wouldn't it be nice if all people had that luxury? Of course im ignoring the problems of looking after it if it becomes too much to maintain. Just speaking generally. It would be nice to raise standards of living.

    So I see it as a problem, but down the list of priorities in terms of solving housing issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    4/5ths? There you are being completely misleading and disingenuous again. If you think a little lane at the back of Dorset St where almost no one lives according to another poster here, is 4/5ths of Dorset St then it might be time to go back to 4th class maths

    Whats your goal here? What are you wasting time on this silly little number for? Whats your point?

    The MAGNITUDE and SCALE of the problem is what Im talking about. Who cares if its 5% or 9%, 2 streets or 3 streets? Who cares if I said "dorset street" versus "the alleys of dorset street" or the "area surrounding dorset street" or "the domain of Dorset street" or "north-west-east-south dorset street"?

    Nobody, because its unimportant to the issue being discussed. If that's the best you can muster in terms of arguing against the overall fact well then fair play to you.

    "completely misleading" and "disingenuous". Would you ever go away out of it! :P


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    beejee wrote: »
    Youre completely missing my point, even after I thought I had clarified it.

    If theres no limit on the number of people, then there is no point in building houses. The housing crisis would be/is indefinite.

    You have to draw a line towards sustainability.

    Theres one house shared between two family's. Its less than ideal and causes problems. Solution = build another house. That's fine.

    The real problem is that you build another house only to have another two family's show up. You haven't solved anything

    I got your point. I think it silly. We need only build ourselves out of crisis. Enough homes that people can reasonably afford. It's at the point were couples, both working in reasonable jobs can't make rent let alone buy. That's a failure on society and government, especially when policy exacerbates the problem. It's not over population has us where we are. It's policy.
    I can't see people who own a house offering up to share it with another family, can you?
    If we are going to redraw what a home is to suit bad policy, that's a different matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    4/5ths? There you are being completely misleading and disingenuous again. If you think a little lane at the back of Dorset St where almost no one lives according to another poster here, is 4/5ths of Dorset St then it might be time to go back to 4th class maths

    A previous poster accurately described the extent of the indigenuous Irish area of Dorset St,as being between Eccles Place & Synnot Place,with an additional number in whats left of Dorset St Flats adjacent to the Maldron Hotel.

    The remainder of Dorset Street,on both sides is predominently private rented units,over-the-shop,or densely occupied multi occupancy houses.
    A quick nip either way along the North Circular Road will lead you directly to some VERY densely occupied houses,with English not being the predominant spoken language.

    Whatever else the OP may be,they are far from being "completely" misleading and disingenuous.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    There you go, screengrabbed, with the 7% area in red, just a small area off Dorset Street, not Dorset Street as you said

    480353.png
    AlekSmart wrote: »
    A previous poster accurately described the extent of the indigenuous Irish area of Dorset St,as being between Eccles Place & Synnot Place,with an additional number in whats left of Dorset St Flats adjacent to the Maldron Hotel.

    The remainder of Dorset Street,on both sides is predominently private rented units,over-the-shop,or densely occupied multi occupancy houses.
    A quick nip either way along the North Circular Road will lead you directly to some VERY densely occupied houses,with English not being the predominant spoken language.

    Whatever else the OP may be,they are far from being "completely" misleading and disingenuous.

    There you go, again, now that is a far, far cry from dorset street is 7% Irish. Misleading and disingenuous. The OP has even admitted they misheard it but persists in pretending it's the whole street. What's my point? That if I hadn't gone to the bother of checking it I'd believe him when he's completely wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 838 ✭✭✭The_Brood


    Build apartment blocks. 3-4 proper, huge, real apartment blocks would house the majority of Dublin's entire population. It is crazy to suggest Ireland has a population problem when there are no apartment blocks in the country.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    beejee wrote: »
    Whats your goal here? What are you wasting time on this silly little number for? Whats your point?

    The MAGNITUDE and SCALE of the problem is what Im talking about. Who cares if its 5% or 9%, 2 streets or 3 streets? Who cares if I said "dorset street" versus "the alleys of dorset street" or the "area surrounding dorset street" or "the domain of Dorset street" or "north-west-east-south dorset street"?

    Nobody, because its unimportant to the issue being discussed. If that's the best you can muster in terms of arguing against the overall fact well then fair play to you.

    "completely misleading" and "disingenuous". Would you ever go away out of it! :P
    Why don't you see the problem with it? Who cares if it's 7% of a lane or 7% of a main street? Sure we might as well say it's 7% of Inner City Dublin by your logic. I'm done with trying to explain it, just hope no else buys your numbers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    beejee wrote: »
    That would be your imagination.

    Where I live there is a noticeable increase in the amount of non-irish that are simply standing around the streets all day. And a few irish people upto the same lark.

    No, that doesn't mean all immigrants are like that. Equally, not all irish people are like.

    All anecdotes. Meanwhile, the numbers are going up and up in actual reality.

    No its not my imagination. I am sick of the usual dirtbirds bleeding the system. No work record and no likelihood of it. If someone can travel a thousand miles from Eastetn Europe and get work why cant Deco in Hardwicke st get work


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    There you go, again, now that is a far, far cry from dorset street is 7% Irish. Misleading and disingenuous. The OP has even admitted they misheard it but persists in pretending it's the whole street. What's my point? That if I hadn't gone to the bother of checking it I'd believe him when he's completely wrong.

    I persisted?! Really now :p

    Just as well you fact checked that insignificant thing, now millions of minds will be walking around with "undefined area of Dorset Street" versus "Dorset street".

    Hallelujah.

    Meanwhile, the topic is about the city. The first post has the link to the prime time program and everyone can watch it, and then decide how important the designation of Dorset Street pertains to the bigger picture and debate.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    beejee wrote: »
    Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

    Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.
    beejee wrote: »
    You confidently asserted that the numbers are wrong.

    You tell me. Or get onto primetime and ask them.
    beejee wrote: »
    Did they not say "dorset street"?

    Are you criticising me for stating what they said?

    Yes the area highlighted is not the entirety of dorset street. Congratulations on the monumental victory. That's added some real "oomf" to the topic :P
    beejee wrote: »
    "I ate a mars bar earlier"

    Response. "No! You are completely misleading, you ate 4/5ths of a mars bar!"

    That was a close one alright, phew! All the important information, no stone left unturned. Changes everything.
    beejee wrote: »
    I persisted?! Really now :p

    Just as well you fact checked that insignificant thing, now millions of minds will be walking around with "undefined area of Dorset Street" versus "Dorset street".

    Hallelujah.

    Meanwhile, the topic is about the city. The first post has the link to the prime time program and everyone can watch it, and then decide how important the designation of Dorset Street pertains to the bigger picture and debate.
    There you go, maybe look up the meaning of persisted, insignificant and misleading when you are getting the difference between small and big explained to you


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play


    TBH you'll find pretty much anything on Dorset St. if you go looking for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Edgware wrote: »
    No its not my imagination. I am sick of the usual dirtbirds bleeding the system. No work record and no likelihood of it. If someone can travel a thousand miles from Eastetn Europe and get work why cant Deco in Hardwicke st get work

    It is indeed your imagination if you believe that only Irish people are doing that.

    I already mentioned that there is a crowd of layabouts near me and they ain't Irish.

    So surely, going by your logic, they must be even WORSE than the Irish ones, because not only are they layabouts, they have travelled thousands of miles to be layabouts?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,758 ✭✭✭enricoh


    There you go, maybe look up the meaning of persisted, insignificant and misleading when you are getting the difference between small and big explained to you

    Haha, you were thanking him n saying fair play two hours ago. Hes a bit less thankful now beegee!
    Now can we get someone else in for a bitta the aul thread derailment!!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    enricoh wrote: »
    Haha, you were thanking him n saying fair play two hours ago. Hes a bit less thankful now beegee!
    Now can we get someone else in for a bitta the aul thread derailment!!

    I was thanking him for being so wrong :p

    Yeah god forbid we correct the mistakes, can't have that now it must be derailing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    We are at pretty much full employment now in Dublin. The IDA should cease promoting Dublin and look to promote the rest of the country. Until we are getting 40,000 dwellings per month being built, growth is unsustainable in Dublin. I know a lot of medium salaried immigrants from other European countries who came here for sales/basic tech jobs and the majority have gone home or moved on, mainly because of the rental crisis.

    Any talk of jobs being created now means people from abroad coming over to the country. It is time to let the growth and immigration of the past few years settle in with a focus on fixing the rental crisis, figuring out where we are going generally, what infrastructure etc is needed as a priority.

    My main fix would be to tax institutionals as they pay no tax and reduce the tax dramatically which is paid by landlords in conjunction with abolishing USC in order to free up more cash for people to spread around the economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    There you go, maybe look up the meaning of persisted, insignificant and misleading when you are getting the difference between small and big explained to you

    In not one of your quotations did I insist on something being a fact. Not once.

    One was a genuine question, and the rest is criticising your insane obsession over something unbelievably insignificant.

    This is plain stupidity. You're trying your best, and looking like a fool, to make a point that has no significance, no meaningful contribution and then have the gall to criticise me incorrectly about "persistence"? Hyperbolic shyte :p

    But it is a good way to derail a thread I suppose...

    Yes, the area they talk about in regards Dorset is ill-defined. Big deal.

    Asinine commentary. I won't be replying to you again.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Jesus Christ you still don't even get it. Fine, I'm done


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Build more houses?

    Anyone a cost for these houses?

    20 billion? 30 billion?

    Anyone?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭Patty Hearst


    beejee wrote: »
    Whats your goal here? What are you wasting time on this silly little number for? Whats your point?

    The MAGNITUDE and SCALE of the problem is what Im talking about. Who cares if its 5% or 9%, 2 streets or 3 streets? Who cares if I said "dorset street" versus "the alleys of dorset street" or the "area surrounding dorset street" or "the domain of Dorset street" or "north-west-east-south dorset street"?

    Nobody, because its unimportant to the issue being discussed. If that's the best you can muster in terms of arguing against the overall fact well then fair play to you.

    "completely misleading" and "disingenuous". Would you ever go away out of it! :P

    The poster is trying to derail your argument and in general muddy the waters and deflect from the central point. Its not simply part of the discussion or being overly pedantic...Its a Deliberate Tactic

    That there's an incredible amount of Non Nationals pouring in to the country is obvious to most by now, and whats also obvious is that its clearly is having a huge effect on demand and availability of accommodation. A child could work it out.

    But there's an army of posters here whos goal is to shut down that conversation by any means..to drag you off topic by picking on the slightest perceived mistake in stats or numbers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Build more houses?

    Anyone a cost for these houses?

    20 billion? 30 billion?

    Anyone?


    Money isn't really a problem, it's we don't have the workforce. What we need is a bit immigration.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,344 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    beejee wrote: »

    Its definitely a fair point. One person for a 5 bedroom house is a bit overkill.

    On the otherhand it is nice, isn't it, having that space of freedom? Wouldn't it be nice if all people had that luxury? Of course im ignoring the problems of looking after it if it becomes too much to maintain. Just speaking generally. It would be nice to raise standards of living.

    So I see it as a problem, but down the list of priorities in terms of solving housing issues.
    I really don't think you understand all of what I am saying. The freedom of space is a burden not something my mother nor her neighbours want. The constantly complain that it is way too much to maintain. It isn't just the houses either the gardens are too much.
    As most older houses are larger and if back in family use those families get the luxury of larger houses.
    I dont see how you don't see how this is not a priority. It would be quick to do, reduce congestion, better use of local amenities with no need to build more, provide extra money for pensions etc...

    This is not small scale stuff but a huge amount of housing stock in Dublin. The majority of houses built from 50s up to the 80s in Dublin are under occupied. That is a huge amount of property. Even if it is only a small portion of these houses it could be easily 10% increase in the city's capacity.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    The poster is trying to derail your argument and in general muddy the waters and deflect from the central point. Its not simply part of the discussion or being overly pedantic...Its a Deliberate Tactic

    That there's an incredible amount of Non Nationals pouring in to the country is obvious to most by now, and whats also obvious is that its clearly is having a huge effect on demand and availability of accommodation. A child could work it out.

    But there's an army of posters here whos goal is to shut down that conversation by any means..to drag you off topic by picking on the slightest perceived mistake in stats or numbers.
    You forgot to blame it all on George Soros:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Build more houses?

    Anyone a cost for these houses?

    20 billion? 30 billion?

    Anyone?

    If I may.....what's your solution?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭jeremyj1968


    It's impossible to have a mature conversation about housing in this country. None of the people in Government positions are prepared to even acknowledge that immigration is even a contributory factor to the shortage of housing, and when you cant even recognise a problem you have no chance of solving it.

    Fair enough if there are working people who are paying for their own rents. But we should not be importing people, who the Government then have to provide housing for, when there is no housing for the natives that are already here and don't have houses. It's just f**king stupid, but it's how everything gets done in this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    If I may.....what's your solution?

    To what?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    To what?

    Housing crisis. Or are you talking about building more houses because of broadband in rural areas?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Has anyone else noticed a trend in "big plot" films over the last couple years?

    I can think of several where the plot involves eliminating huge swathes of people to save the planet. I haven't seen it, and don't intend to, but isn't that latest avengers film the same? Just from bits and pieces ive read it seems the bad guy has the same intention.

    Won't be long before its a cliché :p


This discussion has been closed.
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