Louis Theroux - Mothers on the Edge

ceadaoin. · 14-05-2019 10:55pm

Feisar wrote: »

Right, I'll try again.

She's asked does she feel safe in her home. She's not asked this when she goes to the doctor generally, it's because she is pregnant. So the question mustn't be for her it's for the unborn child. Which is ours. So following this logic if it's also mine, why am I not being asked is she keeping her end up also?

No, the question is for her, she doesn't cease to exist as a person once she is pregnant. Being pregnant is a risk factor for abuse and the WHO recommend that this question be asked to identify at risk women and offer help. They would also ask this question in other scenarios such as repeated injuries or something like that. Why do you seem to be taking it so personally?

You don't need to be asked if she is "keeping her end up" because she is able to answer those questions herself as an adult.

Muir · 14-05-2019 10:56pm

I've known of both men and women to have similar questions asked when seeking healthcare in regards to mental health. It's not only asked during pregnancy. It's asked in circumstances where abuse is more likely. Also, circumstances where seeking help is more likely, for example a child might be the push someone needs to leave an abusive relationship.

As regards asking a partner about smoking and drinking, would you like it if your GP called your partner when you had appointments to verify things you told them? I'm guessing that'd be a no from most people. It's no where near the same thing.

I haven't had a chance to watch the documentary yet but I'm looking forward to catching up on it.

Be right back · 14-05-2019 11:03pm

ozbackineire wrote: »

Is this repeated anywhere? I meant to tape it but forgot

It is shown again Thursday night BBC 2.

Sinus pain · 14-05-2019 11:14pm

Feisar wrote: »

iamwhoiam wrote: »

No , why would you be entitled to same duty of care ? Are you pregnant ? Carrying a child ? About to give birth ?
Honestly get a grip . The mother and child are the primary focus here

Right, I'll try again.

She's asked does she feel safe in her home. She's not asked this when she goes to the doctor generally, it's because she is pregnant. So the question mustn't be for her it's for the unborn child. Which is ours. So following this logic if it's also mine, why am I not being asked is she keeping her end up also?

Take yourself down the gp and tell them that your wife is pregnant and you would like a full antinatal check up including being asked if you feel safe in your home. Them get them to ring your wife to ask if you’ve been smoking or drinking. Problem solved - you won’t feel left out.

Bobblehats · 14-05-2019 11:50pm

Louis thereoux isn’t he the guy from Dark Tourist?

Glass fused light · 15-05-2019 12:21am

Feisar wrote: »

My wife is pregnant, at one of the appointments there was a part that I wasn't in with her for. She was asked was she safe in her home, apparently standard a question. Fair enough I'm not the patient in their care however my unborn son is. Surely they should have asked me how she was coping, is she drinking or smoking.

Well hello, what do we have here .... maternity care providers what attitudes should we 'red flag' as they could indicate a controlling partner?
Well how about this, let's get the partner in a room ask him who the patient is and let's see how he reacts to questions which should be addressed directly by/to the woman growing the baby!

You are only there with the permission of your wife. Your unborn son is not the patient your wife is. It's her body and therefore all the decisions, medical or otherwise, remain under her control until the birth.

Feisar wrote: »

She's being afforded this additional duty of care not for herself but because of our child.

No she is being afforded this additional duty of care because of you.
As her partner, you are statistically more likely to commence a pattern of abuse or to escalate existing domestic abuse (up to and including violence), which can escalate towards the end of the pregnancy, and continue after the birth.

If physical violence is happening the pregnancy complicates the risk to her health as she has the additional concern of protecting her womb during an attack.

After the birth the identification and treatment of any hormonal imbalance (a side effect of pregnancy) can be complicated by domestic abuse

Be right back wrote: »

It is shown again Thursday night BBC 2.

Thanks

Gimme A Pound · 15-05-2019 12:58am

To be fair, I can understand a father to be feeling uncomfortable with the expectant mother being asked if she feels safe at home. Even if it isn't personal and is just a box ticking exercise.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 15-05-2019 1:07am

Deleted User wrote: »

There was an especially interesting talk with the clinical psychologist Dr Paul D'Alton on RTÉ's Drivetime yesterday. He was presenting an overview of the enormous field of medical evidence on the importance of stability and love in the first three years of a child's life with the emphasis on how this is affecting homeless children in Ireland today. It was a very, very disturbing listen - not least because every parent will be thinking about how they could have been better - and I got the strong impression that we are brewing up a storm when these kids grow up:

Paul D'Alton on RTÉ's Drivetime: Homeless children

No parent gets it right all the time. That’s an impossible standard.

Lorenzo Tasteless Timekeeper wrote: »

To be fair, I can understand a father to be feeling uncomfortable with the expectant mother being asked if she feels safe at home. Even if it isn't personal and is just a box ticking exercise.

It just needs to be made clear that it’s a routine question. Like the way I’m asked if I’m pregnant at every single scan I have now despite being on medication to shut down my ovaries for over three years.

SusieBlue · 15-05-2019 11:48am

If the man/father had to be consulted to verify what the woman says about smoking and drinking (or any other matter), you will inevitably have men who will lie for the sake of creating drama or to get back at her or whatever & say she's smoking 60 a day and drinking every night, when she isn't.

It will be used as just another tool for abusive men to exert control over their partners.

Her word is good enough, and if she lies and is actually drinking/smoking excessively this will be picked up on.
Doctors & midwives are trained to look for signs, not just medically with the baby, but through observing the woman etc. and if there's even the tiniest suspicion they have a duty of to alert Túsla before the birth.

[Deleted User] · 15-05-2019 12:43pm

I can see where Feisar is coming from, I think.
It is so important that the pregnant woman be asked questions to determine her domestic situation and if everything is ok for her. But the dad has a part to play to in raising the child. It might be an idea to ask him some questions too which will help ensure the medical professionals his partner is of sound enough mind and that the baby will be safe.

Of course there are no guarantees of a positive outcome even with questions being asked.

Neyite · 15-05-2019 1:00pm

Feisar wrote: »

??? Why is it a bizarre post? She's being treated differently as she is carrying our child. Am I not entitled to the same duty of care as she is, being asked these additional questions due to being pregnant with our child.

The pregnant female is the patient. So you wouldn't get the same duty of care as you aren't the patient.

Feisar wrote: »

She's being afforded this additional duty of care not for herself but because of our child.

Not necessarily.

The midwife is focused on the health of the mother and the health of the foetus. If you think about it, they are taking you /your wife at your word that you ARE actually the father and next of kin.

wiggle16 wrote: »

I don't agree with doctors/nurses asking the pregnant woman's partner if she smokes or drinks or whatnot, obviously. They are there to provide care for her through her pregnancy, not police her. But myself I thought Feisar's wider point was interesting. I wasn't aware that questions about domestic abuse were a standard thing in antenatal care, and I'm glad to know it's there and happens.

However, I suppose as a parallel point, I don't think it would be objectionable for a doctor or nurse to ask the father-to-be if he has any concerns relating to the pregnancy. And I mean that in a very general way, not with a view towards "yes, she smokes 20 a day", more like "I feel stupid asking her this, but is XYZ normal during pregnancy?" - obviously he is not entitled to the same duty of care, not by any stretch of the imagination, he's not a patient. But he is involved, and I don't see the harm in that kind of inclusion.

They do ask if you smoke or drink or do drugs!

They ask how much and the frequency - if you do either then you get a lot of information on how it affects the foetus and directed towards a whole heap of referrals for example smoking cessation. And if you are in concerning levels they'll ask at every appointment. They also ask about how much caffeine based products you consume, how long you've taken folic acid for and so on.

They also ask very private stuff like sexual health history, whether you've been pregnant before, had any abortions or pregnancy losses - things that are not relevant to the current relationship but may cause problems for the pregnancy or the health of the mother during a pregnancy.

Men CAN ask questions at any of the antenatal visits - my partner did.

There was ONE single part out of about 10-15 check ups where he was specifically excluded and that was one part of the intake questionnaire where questions like these are asked along with questions about your relationship wrt domestic red flags.

Akrasia · 15-05-2019 3:22pm

Feisar wrote: »

She's being afforded this additional duty of care not for herself but because of our child.

If I was your pregnant partner, I'd be looking to cut you loose at the earliest opportunity.

Your attitude is appalling

The whole world didn't start off as out to get you. But when you go around with a chip on your shoulder all the time, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy

Gimme A Pound · 15-05-2019 3:23pm

Akrasia wrote: »

If I was your pregnant partner, I'd be looking to cut you loose at the earliest opportunity.

Your attitude is appalling

The whole world didn't start off as out to get you. But when you go around with a chip on your shoulder all the time, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy

On reflection, I'd say he's taking the piss.

Feisar · 15-05-2019 3:24pm

Akrasia wrote: »

If I was your pregnant partner, I'd be looking to cut you loose at the earliest opportunity.

Your attitude is appalling

The whole world didn't start off as out to get you. But when you go around with a chip on your shoulder all the time, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy

Ouch! I'm not that bad really and I've no chip on my shoulder.

Akrasia · 15-05-2019 3:31pm

Lorenzo Tasteless Timekeeper wrote: »

To be fair, I can understand a father to be feeling uncomfortable with the expectant mother being asked if she feels safe at home. Even if it isn't personal and is just a box ticking exercise.

Why would anyone be uncomfortable about their partner being asked if they feel safe at home?

Unless there is already a hostile environment in the home and the partner doesn't want anyone to know about it?

If my wife's doctor asked her if she feels safe at home, she would say yes.

Why? Because I have never hit her, never abused her and treat her with respect .

If there was even a hint of a doubt in my mind that perhaps my wife is afraid of me or feels unsafe at home, it would reflect extremely badly on me and I would be ashamed of myself.

hopaxo · 15-05-2019 4:06pm

because it's a pointless condescending box ticking exercise

as if getting her away from him for a few seconds will free her

for the stats on pregnant women being more at risk, at what point does this happen exactly? after this question is asked surely, given the months of time left

so not much point asking it then

its like never asking anything about the father except his mothers maiden name

like what is that doing on forms?

maybe someone knows the answer

iamwhoiam · 15-05-2019 4:11pm

hopaxo wrote: »

because it's a pointless condescending box ticking exercise

as if getting her away from him for a few seconds will free her

for the stats on pregnant women being more at risk, at what point does this happen exactly? after this question is asked surely, given the months of time left

so not much point asking it then

maybe someone knows the answer

Its a question recommend by the WHO . So I would tend to be guided by them . They have researched and gather statistics worldwide .

hopaxo · 15-05-2019 4:21pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Its a question recommend by the WHO . So I would tend to be guided by them . They have researched and gather statistics worldwide .

it's a pointless box ticking exercise

sometime you need look beyond this

have they any stats to show how many women have given an answer to this where they felt unsafe and even one thing was done about it, in ireland

i doubt it

ceadaoin. · 15-05-2019 4:33pm

hopaxo wrote: »

because it's a pointless condescending box ticking exercise

as if getting her away from him for a few seconds will free her

for the stats on pregnant women being more at risk, at what point does this happen exactly? after this question is asked surely, given the months of time left

so not much point asking it then

Well according to the study I posted earlier, more than 12% of Irish women reported being subjected to violence at their booking appointment. That's the very first appointment. That number then gets higher during later appointments .

You're moaning about women being asked a simple question that could flag them up as needing extra support and could stop them and their child being seriously injured. Get a grip

iamwhoiam · 15-05-2019 4:36pm

hopaxo wrote: »

it's a pointless box ticking exercise

sometime you need look beyond this

have they any stats to show how many women have given an answer to this where they felt unsafe and even one thing was done about it, in ireland

i doubt it

If only one woman or girl is helped by this question then thats enough to make it worthwhile .

sbsquarepants · 15-05-2019 4:40pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

It will be used as just another tool for abusive men to exert control over their partners.

.

That's a bit of a leap is it not. It could just as easily be used for concerned fathers to highlight mothers detrimental behaviour.

I'm not sure what good (or harm) it would do either way. The mother is a patient after all not a prisoner, if she wants to swear she's teetotal and then then nip into Tesco for a bottle of whiskey there's not much can be done.

All the docs can do is take her at her word.

Akrasia · 15-05-2019 4:40pm

hopaxo wrote: »

because it's a pointless condescending box ticking exercise

Why does that make you uncomfortable?

Your partner is asked if she feels safe at home, she says yes. Next question

Where do you begin to feel uncomfortable?

Unless you're worried that she might say no...

El_Duderino 09 · 15-05-2019 4:41pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Why would anyone be uncomfortable about their partner being asked if they feel safe at home?

Unless there is already a hostile environment in the home and the partner doesn't want anyone to know about it?

If my wife's doctor asked her if she feels safe at home, she would say yes.

Why? Because I have never hit her, never abused her and treat her with respect .

If there was even a hint of a doubt in my mind that perhaps my wife is afraid of me or feels unsafe at home, it would reflect extremely badly on me and I would be ashamed of myself.

I was visiting m mother for a few days and while home she cooked some lovely food. She has a mixer on a spring loader shelf the folds away into a cupboard. She opened the cupboard and it flew up and whacked her in the face. She came up in a black eye. Next couple of das she was at the doctor and mentioned i was home. Doctor took great pains to ask questions about her relationship with me, what I was like, had i ever been violent with her or anyone else. It took her ages to figure out what the doctor was getting at.

Makes perfect sense that the doctor should ask if they see potential symptoms or a potentially vulnerable person. We laughed about it but it was a fair line of questioning. I'm happy the doctor is looking out for my mother

SusieBlue · 15-05-2019 4:48pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's a bit of a leap is it not. It could just as easily be used for concerned fathers to highlight mothers detrimental behaviour.

I'm not sure what good (or harm) it would do either way. The mother is a patient after all not a prisoner, if she wants to swear she's teetotal and then then nip into Tesco for a bottle of whiskey there's not much can be done.

All the docs can do is take her at her word.

Can you really not see how some men would use questions like that to their advantage in a volatile relationship? And how it would be abused and used to manipulate a vulnerable woman?

I would hope that if a man genuinely had concerns that their partner was drinking/smoking to excess they wouldn't need to wait to be asked, they'd just volunteer the info themselves at an appointment.
A private interview where the man is in a position of power, where he "verifies" what info the woman gives just doesn't sit right with me.
The potential to exploit the situation is just too high.

whatwhatwhat · 15-05-2019 4:49pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well according to the study I posted earlier, more than 12% of Irish women reported being subjected to violence at their booking appointment. That's the very first appointment. That number then gets higher during later appointments .

You're moaning about women being asked a simple question that could flag them up as needing extra support and could stop them and their child being seriously injured. Get a grip

if you click through the study to the underlying one, it doesn't answer my question at all

it's a pointless box ticking exercise unless something is done if you click yes

so is it?

theres no grip to get

Squatter · 15-05-2019 4:51pm

Akrasia wrote: »

If my wife's doctor asked her if she feels safe at home, she would say yes.

Love the way that you have already decided what your missus would say if asked that question!

I assume that you have informed her accordingly?

whatwhatwhat · 15-05-2019 4:52pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Why does that make you uncomfortable?

Your partner is asked if she feels safe at home, she says yes. Next question

Where do you begin to feel uncomfortable?

Unless you're worried that she might say no...

again, i think the point is it is one sided only, imagine if you were checking in for a routine hospital visit and someone asked you that question, about your partner

or your child visiting the doctor for a graze and they started asking them if you did it

I don't feel uncomfortable at all, it's just a waste of time

you seem very uncomfortable I must say

sbsquarepants · 15-05-2019 4:52pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Can you really not see how some men would use questions like that to their advantage in a volatile relationship? And how it would be abused and used to manipulate a vulnerable woman?

.

I can of course. And I can see how some women might not tell the truth too.

As I said, it's a pointless question. It's not like they can do anything about it either way. Even if they know full well one party (or even both) is entirely making it up - what difference does it make.

Skanks have babies all the time, drinking, smoking, drugs and whatnot. The doctors can't do a single thing about it.

ceadaoin. · 15-05-2019 4:54pm

SusieBlue wrote: »

Can you really not see how some men would use questions like that to their advantage in a volatile relationship? And how it would be abused and used to manipulate a vulnerable woman?

I would hope that if a man genuinely had concerns that their partner was drinking/smoking to excess they wouldn't need to wait to be asked, they'd just volunteer the info themselves at an appointment.
A private interview where the man is in a position of power, where he "verifies" what info the woman gives just doesn't sit right with me.
The potential to exploit the situation is just too high.

Totally agree with this. It would be abused by some, no doubt about it. Abusive partners will go to great lengths to control and intimidate their victims. This would be relatively easy for them.

I hear they have a great system in some parts of the world- The woman's word is worth half that of a mans. Who cares what she says about her own actions, men know better. Sounds like something some posters here would endorse!

SusieBlue · 15-05-2019 4:58pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I can of course. And I can see how some women might not tell the truth too.

As I said, it's a pointless question. It's not like they can do anything about it either way. Even if they know full well one party (or even both) is entirely making it up - what difference does it make.

Skanks have babies all the time, drinking, smoking, drugs and whatnot. The doctors can't do a single thing about it.

If they suspect a woman is abusing drugs or alcohol they have a duty of care to report it to Túsla.
The woman will be more closely monitored during pregnancy and her ability to care for the child will be assessed after the child is born. Home checks & family interviews will be done.
She'll basically have social services on her back for the duration of her pregnancy, and after her child is born - its not like they don't act on it.
A false report like that could have serious consequences for a vulnerable woman in such a situation.

Can you imagine the dangerous scenarios it could cause?
"If you tell anyone I hit you, I'll tell the doctor you're drinking every night and the baby will be taken off you." - that's the reality of what would happen. It would be used as yet another means of control.

I can think of more than a few situations I've heard of where the man/father would absolutely have made a false report if given an opportunity to privately "verify" whether the woman was telling the truth or not.

Its a system open to manipulation and abuse. A womans word should be enough, I think.

Louis Theroux - Mothers on the Edge

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