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Salary stagnation: how to survive it

  • 14-06-2019 10:04pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Looking at the Pre-2011 salary scale here I'm very close to landing on one of those salary points that don't change for years - i.e. no increment at all for 3 years, then an increment, then none for 4 more years, then an increment, then none for 4 further years. Then, you get one final increment where you will spend the rest of your teaching years without a salary increase. As retirement is currently 68, and will probably be at least 70 by the time I get there, that's a great number of years at the same final salary.

    What was the initial logic behind structuring pay points like that? It sounds very depressing to have no salary rise at all for years, which when inflation is taken into account sounds like your salary will in fact be decreasing in those years of ostensible 'stagnation'. Does reaching this point of staring at salary stagnation become a bit of a mid-life crisis for some teachers? Career change? Time to take early retirement? I'm certainly feeling older just thinking about being (almost!) at a place which once looked so far away. I googled for survival guides and blogs but to no avail. Is there any financial solace at all in these years, or advice to triumph over this financial disincentive to continue?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Survival guides? Are you taking the piss? If you are going on to Point 14 which is the first of those points, you are not living like a pauper. And you've only been teaching for 11 years or thereabouts, so I doubt anyone going on to Point 14 is thinking of retirement.

    You don't get a payrise for 3 years, life goes on. Lots of people do not get an annual payrise. If you go back and look at that payscale at the end of the three years, when you go from 16 to 17 you'll notice that the payrise is more than the typical 1000-1200 that is typical of the annual increment. It's typically about 2500.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Agree with rainbowtrout here.

    I’m in the same boat but more than happy to be in that boat.

    As a pre 2011 teacher, you’re in a great position and you certainly won’t get a better offer anywhere else without a lot of expensive retraining.

    I’ll get an increment now in September I think and will be on that wage for 3 years but the increment is for €2500 and my basic wage will go from €58k to around €60.5k.


    Zero complaints and really happy with it.
    About to turn 36 and teaching 13 years.

    The last line of your post reeks of entitlement tbh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭ Bruno Mealy Ginkgo


    It's a big demotivation I think OP. It was definitely a big factor in why I quit last year. The salary scale in teaching starts well but it is far too long and the increments too small.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    Then, you get one final increment where you will spend the rest of your teaching years without a salary increase.
    Take on extra duties. Get a promotion. Correct exams for the summer.
    It sounds very depressing to have no salary rise at all for years, which when inflation is taken into account sounds like your salary will in fact be decreasing
    Um, don't you still get annual indexation, as agreed from time to time?

    Inflation has been about 5% in the last 10 years: https://www.cso.ie/multiquicktables/quickTables.aspx?id=cpa01


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Wesser


    take a summer job to make some extra cash


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    I am on one of those points on the scale :(. We are getting a 1.75% increase on the 1st of September 2019 and then 2% on the 1st October 2020 so that’s something ;)
    I am guessing the increase only refers to our basic pay and not allowances?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,648 ✭✭✭honeybear


    Think the freezing of increments was a real pain during the financial crisis, not to mention the USC-if memory serves me right, USC was meant to be temporary! Having said that, I think I’m paid ok but maybe that’s because the Summer holidays are looming!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 205 ✭✭JPF82


    OP post is so entitled. I'm 37 years old, teaching 4 years now after a career change and my wife and I have managed to buy a house. I'm not full hours earning 36k. My wife earns less than I do in a private sector job. I think the OP can survive on what they are earning or get over themselves.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Not sure this thread is going anywhere except into the arms of those who like to troll here.

    Would be mildly interetsed myself in the reasoning behind the structure of the scale, if anyone knows the reasoning behind it.
    I think most would agree it is a very long scale, particularly for anyone who doesn't get a fulltime position for the first few years (i.e. almost everyone). Of course it was set in a time when teaching was very different and people had actual 'real' jobs straight from college, not part-time contracts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Millem wrote: »
    I am on one of those points on the scale :(. We are getting a 1.75% increase on the 1st of September 2019 and then 2% on the 1st October 2020 so that’s something ;)
    I am guessing the increase only refers to our basic pay and not allowances?

    Yes, the increase is applied to the scale only.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭ Allie Red Razor


    God love you OP, I haven't had a pay raise this decade. I would love to get a pay raise ever 3 years... pfft...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    I say fair fex to the OP in feeling entitled.
    Yes teachers should get more considering the level of education and low hours and insecurity we start off on.

    Teachers are too humble and made to feel accountable for every piece of bread they put in their mouths.

    60k for a professional after 30 years is pittance.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fitness-instructor-to-be-paid-160000-to-work-at-dil-gym-used-by-just-one-politician-each-day-38220979.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    Survival guides? Are you taking the piss? If you are going on to Point 14 which is the first of those points, you are not living like a pauper. And you've only been teaching for 11 years or thereabouts, so I doubt anyone going on to Point 14 is thinking of retirement.

    You don't get a payrise for 3 years, life goes on. Lots of people do not get an annual payrise. If you go back and look at that payscale at the end of the three years, when you go from 16 to 17 you'll notice that the payrise is more than the typical 1000-1200 that is typical of the annual increment. It's typically about 2500.

    Also there's a 1.75% rise this September and a 2% rise in October 2020.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,372 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Please ensure you read the forum charter before posting. Any post that is used to merely cause reaction will attract mod attention


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    I say fair fex to the OP in feeling entitled.
    Yes teachers should get more considering the level of education and low hours and insecurity we start off on.

    Teachers are too humble and made to feel accountable for every piece of bread they put in their mouths.

    60k for a professional after 30 years is pittance.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fitness-instructor-to-be-paid-160000-to-work-at-dil-gym-used-by-just-one-politician-each-day-38220979.html


    The OP alludes to moving on to point 14 on the scale soon, which is €53645. Combined with an Hons Dip (1236) and Degree allowance, (4918), gives the OP an annual salary of 59,799. Assuming the OP is on full hours it has taken them 12 years to get to a salary of 60k. Not 30 years. With the 1.75% rise in October it will certainly take that salary across the 60k threshold.


    I think teachers deserve to be well paid, but at what point will you be satisfied? 80k? 100k? 120k?


    Did you even read the full article you linked to instead of the clickbait headline? It says 160k over a four year period. So 40k a year. Not exactly raking it working in Dublin. Granted the gym instructor doesn't seem to be taxed by the work if only one person uses the gym per day but that's not their fault. Perhaps the government would be better tasked by asking if the Dail needs a gym instructor.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭PhoenixParker


    I say fair fex to the OP in feeling entitled.
    Yes teachers should get more considering the level of education and low hours and insecurity we start off on.

    Teachers are too humble and made to feel accountable for every piece of bread they put in their mouths.

    60k for a professional after 30 years is pittance.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fitness-instructor-to-be-paid-160000-to-work-at-dil-gym-used-by-just-one-politician-each-day-38220979.html

    60k is an excellent salary.

    Quoting random anomalous salaries that need to be corrected doesn't change that.

    While a teacher earning 60k might have 30 years experience they're also performing essentially the same job as a new graduate or one with 5 years experience.

    There are other opportunities to increase the salary by taking on additional responsibility, the same way any professional will seek to increase their salary.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,088 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    There are other opportunities to increase the salary by taking on additional responsibility, the same way any professional will seek to increase their salary.

    Part of the problem though is that there are not many of such opportunities and some people (for example in schools with a certain set of changing demographics) rarely get a promotional opportunity, while some very large schools have lots of chances even for still quite inexperienced staff members.

    It's not a level playing field at all.

    When I retired, I left an AP1 (A post) and a full-time position. That became no post and 3 small hour contracts. No doubt the Department would put a spin on that and say teacher employment had increased drastically, but has it really?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    I say fair fex to the OP in feeling entitled.
    Yes teachers should get more considering the level of education and low hours and insecurity we start off on.

    Teachers are too humble and made to feel accountable for every piece of bread they put in their mouths.

    60k for a professional after 30 years is pittance.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fitness-instructor-to-be-paid-160000-to-work-at-dil-gym-used-by-just-one-politician-each-day-38220979.html

    Did you read the article you linked to? 160k over 4 years...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Did you read the article you linked to? 160k over 4 years...

    Believe me I read it.

    Jeez if I got 40k a year to teach 1 student part time!


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Believe me I read it.

    Jeez if I got 40k a year to teach 1 student part time!

    Nothing to stop you becoming a gym instructor. Again, the gym is available to all Dail staff. The fact that is underused is not the instructor's fault.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    The OP alludes to moving on to point 14 on the scale soon, which is €53645. Combined with an Hons Dip (1236) and Degree allowance, (4918), gives the OP an annual salary of 59,799. Assuming the OP is on full hours it has taken them 12 years to get to a salary of 60k. Not 30 years. With the 1.75% rise in October it will certainly take that salary across the 60k threshold.


    I think teachers deserve to be well paid, but at what point will you be satisfied? 80k? 100k? 120k?


    Did you even read the full article you linked to instead of the clickbait headline? It says 160k over a four year period. So 40k a year. Not exactly raking it working in Dublin. Granted the gym instructor doesn't seem to be taxed by the work if only one person uses the gym per day but that's not their fault. Perhaps the government would be better tasked by asking if the Dail needs a gym instructor.

    Given the ad hoc internship that I had to go through for 8 years. I think I would be more entitled to 80k. I came in with my eyes open but equating a salary scale with 'actual' years served on low hours and temp contracts by most teachers I think they shouldn't be apologising to anyone for seeing themselves as highly qualified professionals.. and being paid accordingly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,372 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    I find it very ironic that we expect big multi nationals to provide all the bells and whistles in workplace and promote wellbeing yet the Dail tries to implement a decent workplace initiative and people question it. It's not as if the money is being wasted on entertainment or catering.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Each person is different too. The op could have kids hitting college paying 2006 level mortgage maybe in Dublin.

    I know teacher in staff room with relatively zero outgoings and second income from inherited property, no holidays, no family to support, giving the poor mouth every week about having no money left after tax. So it's all relative.

    But on the whole I think teachers take a substantial hit starting out... and so they should be compensated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    Its all relative isn't it. Different people at different stages of life.
    I'd love to see an increase in take home pay. Years of subbing on various contracts ranging from full hours to part time hours & I've finally secured a CID but not on full hours. My take home pay hasn't changed much over the years. Even now its on a par with several years ago in spite of my climbing the point salary scale. Yet I have 3 kids in childcare a boom time mortgage and a child with extra needs requiring SALT OT etc but no funding from the state. I can easily see myself as that middle aged teacher taking on extra SEC work etc to help fund raising teenagers/young adults in college etc. And probably having younger teacher moan at my perceived greediness. We just never know circumstances.
    To go back to the OP though I guess at its conception people on the higher end of the payscale were expected to move onto posts of responsibility, managment, maybe publishing, SEC work etc to vary their work and pay?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,089 ✭✭✭Grueller


    I am a qualified teacher but do not work at it any more. I went into the private sector and am self employed along with running a farm part time.
    I have seen both sides of this and it is, as previous posters have already said, all about the stage of life and level of financial commitments that an individual carries. When I was starting out as a teacher I remember being shown a more experienced colleagues pay slip. He was on or very near top of the scale and was giving it bars about this being as good as it got despite qualifications etc. I remember looking at it and seeing €1600 odd per fortnight. I thought to myself, my god how well off would I be if I had that?
    I forgot to also ask how well off would I be if I had that along with this mans 3 children in 3rd level, mortgage and an elderly mother requiring a lot of privately paid home help.
    I now have 2 kids in childcare, a mortgage and had a wife whom was off work due to ill health for months but is gladly back to full health. My earnings were probably slightly higher than my former colleagues were at the time but I thought of him many times during that period. Walk a mile in my shoes and all of that.
    I realise that my post has little to do with the op but what I have realised over the years is that income is not what makes or breaks you, it is outgoings. With that in mind perhaps the op is located in Dublin, struggling to get a deposit together, has massive childcare bills or any other range of financial problems and like my former colleague just needs to blow off some steam.
    Apologies for the ramblings and irrelevance


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Each person is different too. The op could have kids hitting college paying 2006 level mortgage maybe in Dublin.

    I know teacher in staff room with relatively zero outgoings and second income from inherited property, no holidays, no family to support, giving the poor mouth every week about having no money left after tax. So it's all relative.

    But on the whole I think teachers take a substantial hit starting out... and so they should be compensated.

    Same as any other person in any other job.

    Pay is not actually the real issue. Conditions are. Casualisation of jobs, 8 hours here, 11 hours there and all schools are guilty of it. If teachers could leave college knowing that they could get a job on full hours (like other public sector workers) then starting on 35k would be a very different prospect.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭experiMental


    OP : Do you like teaching? Do you want to teach people on the side? If so, do some additional teaching work outside your job, by hosting courses online - here is one suggestion : https://www.thinkific.com/

    Alternatively, you can learn how to make the most out of whatever amount of money you are earning, by reading blogs on personal finance : https://www.wealthsimple.com/en-ca/magazine

    You also have to re-evaluate your desired goals such as where you want to live, what kind of vehicle you want to own, etc. If you want a high quality of life in Ireland and want to supplement this by being a teacher, you better be top of your game in your profession, by really thinking about how you will increase your impact all over the world.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Blueshoe


    Sickening


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Nothing to stop you becoming a gym instructor. Again, the gym is available to all Dail staff. The fact that is underused is not the instructor's fault.

    You're missing the point. I know this case is unique, I know that relatively few gym instructors have 1 client and get paid 40k:rolleyes:

    My point was that it was deemed to be necessary because certain people who oversee us feel are entitled to have a an empty gym and gym instructor.

    Meanwhile we are made to feel 'self entitled' for thinking we should be getting paid more. And this line keeps on getting spun and spun that we should be happy with our lot, and look at where that has gotten post 2011 teachers, continuously told that they have it cushy too.

    I'm just a bit disappointed to see other teachers telling a colleague that they shouldn't be rising above their station.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    TheDriver wrote: »
    I find it very ironic that we expect big multi nationals to provide all the bells and whistles in workplace and promote wellbeing yet the Dail tries to implement a decent workplace initiative and people question it.

    Multinationals wouldn't entertain an empty gym.
    It's not a decent workplace initiative if nobody uses it.... so yes lets question it. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, maybe they'll all tog out and put on a show for the public and use the gym... we'll watch this space.
    TheDriver wrote: »
    It's not as if the money is being wasted on entertainment or catering.

    No that's a separate budget.:)


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