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AP Post - Whether to apply or not

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    #32
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    It depends on the needs of the school above all else.

    Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?


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    #33
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?

    Could be a post coming up that had been held by an IEN specialist, so if someone has a course done in that it would look better.


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    #34
    am_zarathustra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭am_zarathustra


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Could be a post coming up that had been held by an IEN specialist, so if someone has a course done in that it would look better.

    The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

    I know in our place it wasn't people with courses or even degrees that got the roles but people who had worked hard within the school. All the questions were very much geared towards how you had materially improved things for the students and the staff as a whole.


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    #35
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    Not being smart at all but what do you mean by this? So they will look for courses relevant to the need of the school when deciding?

    The school may need someone who is very good at admin so that some work can be offloaded from the secretary. It may need someone who is good at building relationships and organising events. It may need someone who is meticulous with finances. It may need someone who is devoted to improve teaching and learning across the school rather than just their own fiefdom.


    The best bet is demonstrating strong leadership capabilities by leading new or existing projects. This is frowned upon by most during the current industrial disputes. Otherwise, you could do a master's in an area you know will be required in the short to medium term.


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    #36
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

    I know in our place it wasn't people with courses or even degrees that got the roles but people who had worked hard within the school. All the questions were very much geared towards how you had materially improved things for the students and the staff as a whole.

    Yeah the interviews are very generic, and I understand the logic behind it. But if your ien person has left, everyone and the dog knows you need a new one, and there's someone in the staff with all those extra courses, you'd be mad not to hire them to be honest.

    We had uproar in our place when a wellbeing coordinator was developed as an ap1, who then promptly went on maternity leave, came back, owing to reshuffling of posts became a year head, and is now making a balls of it. The generic interview style will be looked at again in a few years I imagine.


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    #37
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.
    There are some surprising decisions, sure, but they’re a result of the principal not having a preference. The panel is there for show. It’s the principal’s decision. Talk to a principal other than your own. They’ll probably even admit it, as long as they don’t think they’ll ever have to explain their decision on a post to you in the future.


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    #38
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    scrubs33 wrote: »
    Is there a case to be made i wonder for a minimum entry requirement for posts? Even something like a patrons course in leadership (I did one last year and boy was it some brainwashing effort) might encourage people to look at the role seriously rather than simply getting it because they live next door to the principal/ chair of BoM

    Minimum requirements currently are dictated by years of experience, 1 year for AP2, 3 years for AP1. It would get too specific I think if specific courses were required.
    Smacruairi wrote: »
    I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.

    The external person on the panel last time round for me was a buddy of the principal. I knew it was game over the minute I walked into the interview. Went back to school, was chatting to the secretary and told her who was on the panel and her reply was 'oh you're definitely not getting it so'. :rolleyes:

    Another teacher was told before lockdown that if they came in and did a couple of jobs for the principal during the summer that the next post would be theirs. :mad:
    Icsics wrote: »
    Yes, posts are in the gift of the Principal. Of course its dressed up in all sorts of 'openness' but if the P doesn't want you, then you won't get it. None of the older teachers in my school have posts, it leads to all sorts of issues. Namely, inexperienced teachers in over their heads & the school suffering as a result.

    AP2 post in my school went to someone in the job 1.5 years. Now she's a good teacher but didn't yet have a CID, but it was a real kick in the teeth to a couple of the teachers who went for it who are there 15 years and do loads of extra curricular etc and are really competent and would have been good at the job. It's really telling them 'we do not value your experience, qualifications, work ethic or competence, but we expect you to keep doing all of this while we promote people above you with less experience'.
    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    The posts are not allowed to be specific now and your role can and does change every couple of years. The days of the ICT person etc are gone. I'm not entirely sure whether this is a good thing, given the specific nature of some roles, but that is the way. Having a qualification in a specific areas would probably help and does show professional development, which is always good!

    True, but the reality is that if the ICT person retires it will need to be done by someone and if it's not being taken on by one of the existing post holders then the new person is going to get it.


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    #39
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    I can't speak to your own personal experience, and if you felt passed over for a pet in the school, sorry to hear. But having held posts in 2 diff schools at both a post and b post level, and now the new ap levels, more often than not you have loads of very qualified people all going for the one job, someone has to lose out unfortunately.

    I've been on hiring panels for jobs in my school, even awkwardly interviewing an old colleague, and some people have terrible interviews(not saying you did!!) while thinking they did amazing. You would be surprised at the level of educational discourse among some rookies coming out of college - the problem with the interview is you're not allowed call someone's bull**** out, u just have to listen to their story and go yeah that's nice, move on.

    But I agree, the snakeoil salesmen that are the jct employees hoovering up ETB and educate together jobs is sickening.


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    #40
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    I can't speak to your own personal experience, and if you felt passed over for a pet in the school, sorry to hear. But having held posts in 2 diff schools at both a post and b post level, and now the new ap levels, more often than not you have loads of very qualified people all going for the one job, someone has to lose out unfortunately.

    I've been on hiring panels for jobs in my school, even awkwardly interviewing an old colleague, and some people have terrible interviews(not saying you did!!) while thinking they did amazing. You would be surprised at the level of educational discourse among some rookies coming out of college - the problem with the interview is you're not allowed call someone's bull**** out, u just have to listen to their story and go yeah that's nice, move on.

    But I agree, the snakeoil salesmen that are the jct employees hoovering up ETB and educate together jobs is sickening.

    My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

    Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

    Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.


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    #41
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

    Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

    Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.

    Well the fact that there is no qualification explicitly set other than having served 5 years, normally, yes, there are loads of people qualified.


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    #42
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    Well the fact that there is no qualification explicitly set other than having served 5 years, normally, yes, there are loads of people qualified.

    Look you might work in a school where things are done properly, but loads of us don't. It would be madness not to acknowledge that many panels are just going through the motions and it's the principals decision at the end of the day and if people are getting posts after 2 years in the school they haven't even had the time to bring a group through Junior Cert so where exactly are they getting the experience of management, long term planning etc?


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    #43
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Look you might work in a school where things are done properly, but loads of us don't. It would be madness not to acknowledge that many panels are just going through the motions and it's the principals decision at the end of the day and if people are getting posts after 2 years in the school they haven't even had the time to bring a group through Junior Cert so where exactly are they getting the experience of management, long term planning etc?

    I didn't discount your viewpoint, like with every profession sometimes people slip through cracks. I literally gave an example of it happening above myself. I'm just also saying that some people moan in the staffroom, and these people wouldn't cross the road to help the school unless they got paid extra for it. It's swings and roundabouts in my experience, but you'd have to admit that when people really want a job their opinion of who actually gets it might be coloured.


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    #44
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    I didn't discount your viewpoint, like with every profession sometimes people slip through cracks. I literally gave an example of it happening above myself. I'm just also saying that some people moan in the staffroom, and these people wouldn't cross the road to help the school unless they got paid extra for it. It's swings and roundabouts in my experience, but you'd have to admit that when people really want a job their opinion of who actually gets it might be coloured.

    No I wouldn't have to admit that at all. When the principal is telling members of staff that the next post is earmarked for them long before the post is even advertised my view is not coloured at all, because it's a done deal months in advance.


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    #45
    Empathy20
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Empathy20


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    No I wouldn't have to admit that at all. When the principal is telling members of staff that the next post is earmarked for them long before the post is even advertised my view is not coloured at all, because it's a done deal months in advance.

    Totally agree. I have seen in my school since new management arrived established hard working teachers were overlooked. One new post holder did not even have a CID but had a path worn to the office. I had an interesting conversation with some colleagues a few weeks ago about the number of new staff who were connected to the Principal on a personal level. One colleague even pointed out that any of the new subs who know the Principal personally are picking up probably full hours but other subs are the last to be called. Also to point out some of these new staff are not qualified. So the notion its an even playing field for everyone is fantasy.


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    #46
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    @rainbowtrout - sounds horrendous where you're based. Is this for DP, AP1 or AP2? Is it the same for all staff, or all saved up for you?


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    #47
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    @rainbowtrout - sounds horrendous where you're based. Is this for DP, AP1 or AP2? Is it the same for all staff, or all saved up for you?

    I'm not going to say too much to identify me, I have an AP2 currently, women are second class citizens where I work. I'd say I'll need a trip to the WRC to get an AP1. But lots of women have had similar experience here.


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    #48
    deiseindublin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭deiseindublin


    Ah, sorry, probably shouldn't have asked, but I always find it shocking reading your posts. I'm also in an ETB and while I'm not so innocent as to think everything is all above board all the time, there's nowhere even touching that level of corruption.


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    #49
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    deiseindublin wrote: »
    Ah, sorry, probably shouldn't have asked, but I always find it shocking reading your posts. I'm also in an ETB and while I'm not so innocent as to think everything is all above board all the time, there's nowhere even touching that level of corruption.

    Not at all, we say we should be writing it all down for the movie script :D


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    #50
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    My principal was on the first panel and lied during the interview to discredit me. We weren't even all asked the same questions at the interview. I am the most qualified and experienced person in my staffroom by a country mile. When I won my first appeal the appeal board came back with 'we don't actually know how marks were arrived at because there was no marking scheme'. I am a country mile ahead of the candidates in terms of experience and qualifications who did get the posts. When I did get it second time round my principal did not acknowledge it but he did bring the guy who lost out into his office for a three hour confab on how to win the appeal... using the text of my appeal apparently worked.

    Let's not even go into what happened on the third round. :mad:

    Don't kid yourself on the idea that loads of qualified people are going for the job so someone has to lose out.
    There’s lots of war stories like this I’d say. I know in our place there is a post filled by a female but it’s purely token as all the decisions are made by the principal and the GAA lads who got posts as soon as they were hired.


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    #51
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭Treppen


    I'm going to say something controversial here....

    In "a friend's school" there used to be a gentleman's agreement that the most senior person always got the post.
    Once you were in the school for so long it was like a rite of passage that you graduated to the post.
    You knew a few years in advance who was retiring.

    Here's the kicker, once the post became available there was generally only one or two candidate's but the most senior always got the post. People waited their turn and purposefully didn't go forward to interview.

    Now it's open season.


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    #52
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    Treppen wrote: »
    I'm going to say something controversial here....

    In "a friend's school" there used to be a gentleman's agreement that the most senior person always got the post.
    Once you were in the school for so long it was like a rite of passage that you graduated to the post.
    You knew a few years in advance who was retiring.

    Here's the kicker, once the post became available there was generally only one or two candidate's but the most senior always got the post. People waited their turn and purposefully didn't go forward to interview.

    Now it's open season.
    I don’t think that’s controversial at all. Local arrangements or conventions have gone out the window. Sometimes it’s good but in terms of overall staff harmony a little more discretion would be welcome.


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