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AP Post - Whether to apply or not

  • 28-10-2020 7:40pm
    #1
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭


    There is an AP1 post advertised in my school. I have been teaching for many years now but only got my CID in my current school 3 years ago after a very long road of subbing and one year contracts. I am burnt out from it all and also find the job very stressful however with my situation I need more money for my future if possible.

    I don't know whether to apply for the post or not as the extra stress would not be good for me personally however I would rise to the challenge if it came my way.

    I have downloaded the application form and it really is a hard one to fill out with all the education jargon involved and examples requested.

    Is it worth the effort? Should I be seen to be going for these so that I may get one in the future if not this one? I would also be afraid of making a fool out of myself in interview and then having to work with management etc afterwards and feeling foolish and maybe being looked at in a poor light.

    Can someone in the know advise please?


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Comments

  • #2
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    There is an AP1 post advertised in my school. I have been teaching for many years now but only got my CID in my current school 3 years ago after a very long road of subbing and one year contracts. I am burnt out from it all and also find the job very stressful however with my situation I need more money for my future if possible.

    I don't know whether to apply for the post or not as the extra stress would not be good for me personally however I would rise to the challenge if it came my way.

    I have downloaded the application form and it really is a hard one to fill out with all the education jargon involved and examples requested.

    Is it worth the effort? Should I be seen to be going for these so that I may get one in the future if not this one? I would also be afraid of making a fool out of myself in interview and then having to work with management etc afterwards and feeling foolish and maybe being looked at in a poor light.

    Can someone in the know advise please?

    Go for it. Yes it's worth the effort. No harm to show that you want to do more, and even if you make a balls of the interview, you can learn from it. It won't go against you in the future. No principal would look poorly on any colleague putting their name forward.

    You mention stress, what would the ap most likely be? Year head?


  • #3
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭seekingthetruth


    Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead


  • #4
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead

    Yeah you could. I don't know about your school, but with the amount of chopping and changing in schools these days, there are always posts up every 3 years or so. But go for the ap1, and then if that person gets it, they have to go interviews again, but this time you pretty much know exactly what the questions will be so!


  • #5
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    Year Head I'm guessing but them I'm wondering if someone with another post (ap2) gets it instead would there post become available and then maybe I go for that too instead

    Depends on the post, and it also depends on the school, we have a 2 AP2 posts that are year head to 2 full year groups, that’s a huge amount of extra work. We have an AP1 post that has year head along with 3/4 other jobs. None of the posts in my school are worth it financially imo as a lot of extra work is required and after tax the extra money isnt that much !!


  • #6
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭seekingthetruth


    This will be a year head to one group post so good bit of extra money but its the stress Im worried about and long term - I have a lot of years left ahead of me and with the extra work and hassle but I want to get ahead in life too and have more money if possible.


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  • #7
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,553 ✭✭✭Treppen


    If you're burnt out and stressed then that's a red flag.
    If you're not getting time off from your timetable (some schools do some don't) then it's going to get worse, maybe you might get an easier timetable next year!
    Depends on the school too though, you need support and good relationship from management , parents, teachers, guidance, learning support etc. for year head role.

    9k for A post is 5 k after tax. Might stand to you for mortgage application or extra pension contribution etc!
    Or u could forego the stress and try and make that with exam correcting + invigilating, if your summers are free.

    It's there any trusted yearheads you could have a chat with in the school? They could give you a peek behind the curtain.


  • #8
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Can you do grinds? Even declared at least the income is for a role you are already doing. If you are already stressed I would be cautious about adding even more stress to it. And A posts are not easy


  • #9
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    This will be a year head to one group post so good bit of extra money but its the stress Im worried about and long term - I have a lot of years left ahead of me and with the extra work and hassle but I want to get ahead in life too and have more money if possible.

    If you go into it for the money, you will be disappointed. It's for giving back to the school and the kids, and to up skill and move up the ladder. I've been ty coordinator and year head, neither was "worth the money". You have to want to do it.


  • #10
    Millem
    Registered Users Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    For me no it’s definitely not worth it. I would prefer to make extra money by superintending etc. Maybe someone who has a post could tell you what it’s worth after tax. I would say you would be lucky to come out with 4K net. For me I remember roughly I used to say deductions were about 62% for extra work but I know the way they deduct pension is worked out differently now.


  • #11
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭seekingthetruth


    No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
    I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year


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  • #12
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
    I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year

    That was a pretty big presumption to make. If you have a jaded attitude about the job already I really wouldn't advise it.


  • #13
    Moody_mona
    Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭Moody_mona


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....

    Yes, because they are suited to the position, have impressed with their application form and have performed well in interview. The removal of seniority levels the playing field, it's not a negative.


  • #14
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭seekingthetruth


    Ok I will wait and see what happens with future posts and I do see both of your points well


  • #15
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,132 ✭✭✭✭km79


    From everything you have said I would not in your situation
    Your motivation seems to be for the money . It won’t be worth it
    You are already stressed and verging on burn out but want to take on more work and more responsibilities (and there is a lot ) ?

    I feel like you are also applying because you feel like you should be applying due to less senior members of staff going for it . Again that is not a good motive . Some people are suited to these rules and motivated to them . Some are not. That was one of the reasons seniority was removed . To avoid people who didn’t even want them ending up in the role for 15/20 years .

    Do not apply for this one and do not let it bother you who gets it . Have a really good think over the next while about whether you ever want one in case another comes up.


  • #16
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    ... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere...
    Correct.
    Moody_mona wrote: »
    Yes, because they are suited to the position, have impressed with their application form and have performed well in interview. The removal of seniority levels the playing field, it's not a negative.
    Incorrect. It allows the principal to select people he/she wants to keep because they’d be difficult to replace, or because they don’t kick up much of a fuss.
    In our place, several senior teachers were passed over, in spite of more experience, and more done in the school, in favour of teachers who’d be difficult to replace and either had itchy feet (one gone since anyway) or had unsecure contracts and were likely to be snapped up by other “easier” schools if they weren’t given a reason to stay.
    It created no end of ill-feeling in the staff room, and the ones who got them know exactly why and are doing the absolute minimum in their new roles (for the most part) because they know that management are scared of losing them.


  • #17
    seekingthetruth
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭seekingthetruth


    I agree with you RealJohn and tbh I do feel that seniority is a massive contributing factor to positivity in the work place and just to be clear my competition for the AP post would have far more seniority than me so I would certainly feel the pressure on that part plus how do you work with colleagues if they've been in the school far far longer and get passed over if want a post and have done loads over the years... its a really hard one...

    I do want to go for it though and ok if I don't get it this time then hopefully in the future


  • #18
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    I agree with you RealJohn and tbh I do feel that seniority is a massive contributing factor to positivity in the work place and just to be clear my competition for the AP post would have far more seniority than me so I would certainly feel the pressure on that part plus how do you work with colleagues if they've been in the school far far longer and get passed over if want a post and have done loads over the years... its a really hard one...

    I do want to go for it though and ok if I don't get it this time then hopefully in the future

    I know of cases where younger/newer teachers have gotten posts over far more senior members of staff and it has caused a toxic work environment to be honest. Not nice at all.

    But then again what can you do. A level playing field seems fair to me. It's just that older teachers are less likely to go and them leadership and management courses that will get them posts imo.

    Posts aren't for everyone anyway.


  • #19
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    And to be fair, some older members of staff are brutal too. The removal of seniority was a good thing,it's fair, it's even. Anyone who takes the hump because someone younger than them got the job and therefore contributes to a toxic atmosphere can then only look in the mirror for why they didn't get it.

    That being said, as with any career, sometimes a feckkn eejit gets it and slips through the cracks. They always get found out eventually and move on, I've seen it happen several times, just like I've watched eager younger staff burn themselves out after a year or 2 of it also.


  • #20
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    seekingthetruth wrote: »
    No grinds as when I leave work I dont want to be doing the same thing I have been doing all day in my evenings and weekends, I see on the application form that now seniority is gone out the window for posts as well..... that to me says unless you are willing to be constantly doing stuff in extra curricular and are a complete "yes" person to everything you are ever asked to do then you wont go anywhere.... Eventually people who are in the school much shorter than me will start getting posts....
    I have done loads in extra curricular for years up until last year

    That's gone the last two years.

    If you only got your CID 3 years ago, you are not in your school that long anyway. Seniority is attached to your school, so this system gives you an advantage not a disadvantage. Your experience can't be taken away from you though.

    Don't do it just for the money, if you have a post, you are expected to do the duties. If you are already burned out extra work on top of your current hours probably aren't worth it. If the year head position is in a school with excellent discipline where things run like clockwork then it mightn't be an issue but if there are ongoing issues you will have a lot of work coming your way.

    The money is useful but there are other ways of making money, some of which have been mentioned on here.

    If you go for it, a principal won't think any more or less of you, there will be plenty of people in for the job, some who already have a B post so it will be no surprise and some who you wouldn't put in charge of licking envelopes but want to move up the managerial ladder nonetheless.


  • #21
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Seniority is attached to your school, ...
    This is not the case. One of the successful candidates in our last round of posts was barely in the school a wet week and either got the same marks for seniority as someone who’d been there 6 or 7 years, or got more (since I’m not sure who is who on the list, aside from the person who got top marks).


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  • #22
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    RealJohn wrote: »
    This is not the case. One of the successful candidates in our last round of posts was barely in the school a wet week and either got the same marks for seniority as someone who’d been there 6 or 7 years, or got more (since I’m not sure who is who on the list, aside from the person who got top marks).

    How long ago was that? Was it an ETB school, where seniority can carry? Seniority was also given out in bands, so you could end up in the same band as somebody even if you had more experience than them because the bands were determined by the person with the greatest seniority who applied for the job.

    E.g. 20 marks going for seniority, split into bands of 5 marks. The person with the greatest years of experience applying for the job has 24 years completed. The bands are created based on that person's experience as follows:

    19-24 years: 20 marks
    13-18 years: 15 marks
    7-12 years: 10 marks
    0-6 years: 5 marks

    So a person with 13 years is getting the same mark as the person with 18 years.


  • #23
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    How long ago was that? Was it an ETB school, where seniority can carry? Seniority was also given out in bands, so you could end up in the same band as somebody even if you had more experience than them because the bands were determined by the person with the greatest seniority who applied for the job.
    It was an ETB school but to the best of my knowledge, the guy didn’t come from another school in the same ETB (though I’m not 100% on that).
    I know how the bands work though, and I still fail to see how the person in question could have wound up in the top band (if they did), and I think it must have been them because anyone else wouldn’t have been in the same band as the person I know was in the top band.


  • #24
    Leftwaffe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Leftwaffe


    Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

    I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.


  • #25
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

    I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

    That can unfortunately come down to the principal choosing a favourite in some cases.


  • #26
    scrubs33
    Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭scrubs33


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    That can unfortunately come down to the principal choosing a favourite in some cases.

    Is there a case to be made i wonder for a minimum entry requirement for posts? Even something like a patrons course in leadership (I did one last year and boy was it some brainwashing effort) might encourage people to look at the role seriously rather than simply getting it because they live next door to the principal/ chair of BoM


  • #27
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

    I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.
    I wouldn’t waste my time. As rainbowtrout said, if the principal wants to give it to someone else, they will. If they want to give it to you, they will. Short of having a nightmare of an interview, or the principal not caring who gets it, you’ll either have it or not before you walk into the interview.


  • #28
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    RealJohn wrote: »
    I wouldn’t waste my time. As rainbowtrout said, if the principal wants to give it to someone else, they will. If they want to give it to you, they will. Short of having a nightmare of an interview, or the principal not caring who gets it, you’ll either have it or not before you walk into the interview.

    I'd disagree with that. I mean you might get one or 2 dictators but on the whole I've seen far more positively surprising decisions than not. You have external people on the panel like.


  • #29
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,043 ✭✭✭Icsics


    Yes, posts are in the gift of the Principal. Of course its dressed up in all sorts of 'openness' but if the P doesn't want you, then you won't get it. None of the older teachers in my school have posts, it leads to all sorts of issues. Namely, inexperienced teachers in over their heads & the school suffering as a result.


  • #30
    ethical
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭ethical


    As some contributors on here have stated ,"if your face fits with the Principal" the job is yours even before you go to interview.
    The other fact to note is that some interview boards,especially ETBs have the same lackeys on all the time and do NOT be fooled by the "outsiders" on the interview board,as those so called "outsiders" are lackeys from a nother ETB.I can list names (but cannot or I'd be in bother!) Its shocking the in bred nature of some institutions.I know when I was working overseas my CV was what mattered and then the interview whereas in good old Ireland ,as someone on here has already stated,if you happen to live next to the Principal or the Chair of the BoM your CV and interview do not matter much.
    (In fact the only reason you get an interview is to keep these lackeys in expenses and if you research a little bit you will find some of these are on a Golden Pension and have had a very full career with the ETB and will still not feel like giving anything back for goodwill.Last I heard the undertaker was putting false bases in coffins so that theses boys (and some girls also) can take their untold richess with them1)


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  • #31
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Redordeadqwwer wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, what are some courses one would have to complete in order to get an AP2 post? Might be something I'd consider down the line.

    I've heard of people get them with little to nothing done and relatively new to teaching (no CID) . Then heard of people being refused with every course done under the sun.

    It depends on the needs of the school above all else.


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