Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 22-10-2018 10:51pm

I love Fintan's thoughts on Brexit.

badtoro · 22-10-2018 10:53pm

Rhineshark wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

UK will not renege on Irish border backstop deal, says Bradley

Minister says government is committed to everything it agreed to last December

????

Argh, my head. Will these people stop lying for five minutes or at least pick a consistent lie!

The Secretary of State for, uhm, that, you know, wait... does anyone have an Atlas?

Yeah, don't think I'll pay much heed to what she says.

Frank Bullitt · 22-10-2018 11:01pm

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I love Fintan's thoughts on Brexit.

Listened to this earlier and found it very good.

trellheim · 22-10-2018 11:05pm

Text of TM's statement in the Commons today + Q&A

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-10-22/debates/92803368-83B2-4DAC-8538-7759D29A9E8C/OctoberEUCouncil

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 22-10-2018 11:14pm

Gintonious wrote: »

Listened to this earlier and found it very good.

He 'gets' it more than any British politician I've heard talk about Brexit so far.

Making the point that people in Northern Ireland have a birthright to be Irish citizens, and therefore are EU citizens sums up perfectly what the EU's position is. The EU cannot accept a hard border on the island of Ireland without going against one of its core principles, it has no choice.

Ultimately, it is only the British that can put a hard border on the island. I genuinely hope that is not the end game here.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-10-2018 11:46pm

badtoro wrote: »

The Secretary of State for, uhm, that, you know, wait... does anyone have an Atlas?

Yeah, don't think I'll pay much heed to what she says.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/07/karen-bradley-northern-ireland-secretary-tories

“I freely admit,” Karen freely admitted, “that when I started this job, I didn’t understand some of the deep-seated and deep-rooted issues that there are in Northern Ireland. I didn’t understand things like when elections are fought, for example, in Northern Ireland – people who are nationalists don’t vote for unionist parties and vice versa.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/18/new-northern-ireland-secretary-slapped-dup-clumsy-remarks-1billion/

On a visit to Northern Ireland, Mrs Bradley had indicated to reporters the release of the full £1 billion earmarked for the region as part of that agreement for the DUP's 10 MPs to support the miniority Conservative administration was dependent on the restoration of power sharing.

So when exactly was power sharing restored ?

BonnieSituation · 23-10-2018 9:35am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/07/karen-bradley-northern-ireland-secretary-tories

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/01/18/new-northern-ireland-secretary-slapped-dup-clumsy-remarks-1billion/
So when exactly was power sharing restored ?

Maybe they mean sharing power with fellow Unionists in London?

Hurrache · 23-10-2018 10:00am

Edwina Curry, on Newstalk, seems to think the solution to the JIT issues that the manufacturers have is that they'll bring the manufacturing of the parts they need into the UK.

She also claimed that the UK has better employment levels than Ireland, and waffles on about the strength and resilience of the UK and they have a good good future now.

Not sure who she's trying to convince, the listeners, or herself.

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1054655555715956737

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 10:07am

Hurrache wrote: »

Edwina Curry, on Newstalk, seems to think the solution to the JIT issues that the manufacturers have is that they'll bring the manufacturing of the parts they need into the UK.

She also claimed that the UK has better employment levels than Ireland, and waffles on about the strength and resilience of the UK and they have a good good future now.

Not sure who she's trying to convince, the listeners, or herself.

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1054655555715956737

well Dyson didn't opt for the EU at least..

Hurrache · 23-10-2018 10:13am

lawred2 wrote: »

well Dyson didn't opt for the EU at least..

He has said in the past that the UK is bound by EU regulation so they have to apply their efficiency standards, which are rigged in favour German manufacturers.

So his country is on their way out of the UK, and yet still can't seem to operate within the UK outside of these rigged standards.

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 10:18am

Hurrache wrote: »

He has said in the past that the UK is bound by EU regulation so they have to apply their efficiency standards, which are rigged in favour German manufacturers.

So his country is on their way out of the UK, and yet still can't seem to operate within the UK outside of these rigged standards.

standards for electrical efficiency of motors?

surely the EU has no truck with greater efficiency so is it that Dyson can't deliver electric motors that satisfy EU regulations?

Hardly that.. He's not going to close off the biggest consumer market in the world

Leroy42 · 23-10-2018 10:19am

Hurrache wrote: »

Edwina Curry, on Newstalk, ....

She also claimed that the UK has better employment levels than Ireland, and waffles on about the strength and resilience of the UK and they have a good good future now.

Just on this. I do think that the Uk will be generally all right upon leaving the EU, in that the world is not going to end as so confidently told the HoC.

UK is a leading economy because of many things, 1 of them is clearly being a member of the EU, but there are plenty of others. For example, I expect the City of London to remain a major financial hub of the world.

The problem, IMO, is the leakage due to Brexit. When car companies relocate to the continent, when Dyson moves production of EU models away from the UK, when FDI opt to go with a EU HQ rather than based in the UK. You then have the ancillary jobs and trades such a logistics, uniforms, payroll and admin etc.

I haven't seen any details of how the UK is going to refocus its economy away from a EU centered focus to a world wide focus. That in itself will take time and lots of retraining. Suddenly, for example, they won't need lawyers expert in EU, but rather Chinese or US law. Some will be able to adapt, but the skill sets built over many years will be redundant.

Professor Moriarty · 23-10-2018 10:30am

Hurrache wrote: »

Edwina Curry, on Newstalk, seems to think the solution to the JIT issues that the manufacturers have is that they'll bring the manufacturing of the parts they need into the UK.

She also claimed that the UK has better employment levels than Ireland, and waffles on about the strength and resilience of the UK and they have a good good future now.

Not sure who she's trying to convince, the listeners, or herself.

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1054655555715956737

I know an international company who is in the process of building a warehouse to compensate for loss of JIT components. The only issue for them is the extra cost of the building and the extra cost of having the components in stock.

I also know another international company that is closing their UK branch with the loss of 45 jobs. The company is stating categorically that this is due to worldwide restructuring but I know for a fact that it is due to Brexit.

prawnsambo · 23-10-2018 10:39am

lawred2 wrote: »

standards for electrical efficiency of motors?

surely the EU has no truck with greater efficiency so is it that Dyson can't deliver electric motors that satisfy EU regulations?

Hardly that.. He's not going to close off the biggest consumer market in the world

His issue is with the testing methods employed to specify the energy efficiency of vacuum cleaners. The EU standard requires that the tests be conducted with clean filters and empty bags for all vacuum cleaners. Dyson's point is that his product maintains the same level of energy consumption regardless of when it is used and that the standard is unfair to his competitive advantage.

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 10:41am

prawnsambo wrote: »

His issue is with the testing methods employed to specify the energy efficiency of vacuum cleaners. The EU standard requires that the tests be conducted with clean filters and empty bags for all vacuum cleaners. Dyson's point is that his product maintains the same level of energy consumption regardless of when it is used and that the standard is unfair to his competitive advantage.

That's a fair complaint you'd have to say

prawnsambo · 23-10-2018 10:46am

lawred2 wrote: »

That's a fair complaint you'd have to say

Yeah. I'd agree. But a standard that takes into account when people clean their filters or empty their bags would be pretty much impossible to devise. You have to go with a baseline that everyone understands and can be applied fairly.

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 10:51am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. I'd agree. But a standard that takes into account when people clean their filters or empty their bags would be pretty much impossible to devise. You have to go with a baseline that everyone understands and can be applied fairly.

yeah

the rest is for his marketing team to communicate

Leroy42 · 23-10-2018 11:06am

Hurrache wrote: »

Meanwhile...
https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/1054655555715956737

When are people in the UK going to wake up and see BRexit for the Con that it is?

Dyson has no more loyalty for the UK than anybody else, his calls for Brexit are purely so that he can gain in his business. He doesn't care about the effects on others.

He joins the likes of JRM, Lawson etc as being the lead to call for Brexit but being quick to make sure that they are protected should anything go wrong.

They are gambling with others peoples lives and money.

This type of investment is exactly what the new post Brexit UK is supposed to be about. Even the Express article says it "could" be controversial". Thats as strong as they can be as he was held up as the great Brexiteer. And now he has been shown to be nothing of the sort.

Shelga · 23-10-2018 11:15am

I used to work for Dyson, I’m pretty sure part of it is also that James Dyson does not give a **** about his workers’ rights and would like to be free of EU obligations in that regard.

Water John · 23-10-2018 11:21am

Dyson is long gone to Malasyia to make his vacuum cleaner. This was simply on price. Know of the factory he out sourced to.
He makes more profit, not making his products in the UK. This guy wants to tell his fellow citizens what's best for them???

Igotadose · 23-10-2018 11:25am

Water John wrote: »

Dyson is long gone to Malasyia to make his vacuum cleaner. This was simply on price. Know of the factory he out sourced to.
He makes more profit, not making his products in the UK. This guy wants to tell his fellow citizens what's best for them???

Well, maybe he'll be back once the wages align after Brexit. Probably will take a few years and HMG will have to offer incentives.

Inquitus · 23-10-2018 11:42am

Shelga wrote: »

I used to work for Dyson, I’m pretty sure part of it is also that James Dyson does not give a **** about his workers’ rights and would like to be free of EU obligations in that regard.

He still needs to meet EU standards to sell them here, so not much gained, probably done out of spite.

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 11:47am

Inquitus wrote: »

He still needs to meet EU standards to sell them here, so not much gained, probably done out of spite.

not on employee protections he doesn't

ancapailldorcha · 23-10-2018 11:52am

Leroy42 wrote: »

When are people in the UK going to wake up and see BRexit for the Con that it is?

Dyson has no more loyalty for the UK than anybody else, his calls for Brexit are purely so that he can gain in his business. He doesn't care about the effects on others.

He joins the likes of JRM, Lawson etc as being the lead to call for Brexit but being quick to make sure that they are protected should anything go wrong.

They are gambling with others peoples lives and money.

This type of investment is exactly what the new post Brexit UK is supposed to be about. Even the Express article says it "could" be controversial". Thats as strong as they can be as he was held up as the great Brexiteer. And now he has been shown to be nothing of the sort.

I'm not so sure that they will. Look at what has transpired since 23 June 2016. Or what hasn't transpired.

The Conservative party, the ostensible party of sensible governance, prudent spending and sound management is somehow still negotiating with itself. It hasn't advanced one iota in its discussions with itself since the referendum save for when it has been dragged kicking and screaming by Barnier and the EU. Imagine if a couple walked into a Volkswagen dealership and started rowing about whether they wanted a Passat or a Jetplane but somehow the salesman is supposed to give them a great deal regardless because they simply are that wonderful.

Then there's the NHS which will not be getting that extra funding. This is ok because those Schrodinger's EU migrants will stop moving in blocking up queues while claiming benefits and taking all the jobs. Never mind that over one in twenty of all NHS staff come from the EU and the UK has an ageing population which will require the NHS to be significantly overhauled at some point but I digress.

Finally, look at the Brexiteers themselves. Jacob Rees-Mogg has already moved his fund management company to Dublin. When asked about it on Question Time, he gave an typically amorphous answer about managing funds from all over the world, ie he dodged the question and David Dimbleby had no intention of actually doing any moderating.

Wetherspoon's chairman, Tim Martin reckons that the UK will need more immigration to keep growing. He dislikes freedom of movement has no problem with using migrants to staff his awful pubs rather than trying to attract British workers with better pay. Michael Caine would rather be a "Poor master of my fate" than a slave to EU bureaucrats. John Cleese has cleared off to the Caribbean, blaming the media.

Ultimately, it seems to be either simple venality or an unshakeable obsession with English exceptionalism that is driving these people. Probably a mix of both. They resent any sort of compromise no matter how pragmatic or how much better it would be for the UK as a whole and if they can earn while they're at it, why not?

If all this hasn't dented the certainty of the 17.4 million Leave voters, I honestly can't imagine what will save for some sort of catastrophe. Echo chambers and fake news will only get worse as technology improves so a grand volte face is unlikely and the nation will be all the worse for it unless Theresa May can muster the courage to put country before party. I'm not confident and I find myself ever more grateful for my Irish passport.

LeinsterDub · 23-10-2018 11:56am

A lot of talk of twitter of being close the the 48 number but may be reached today or tomorrow

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1054680858332983296

swampgas · 23-10-2018 12:04pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I know an international company who is in the process of building a warehouse to compensate for loss of JIT components. The only issue for them is the extra cost of the building and the extra cost of having the components in stock.

It might be the "only issue", and clearly it works for that company, but it's potentially a huge issue for others. The reason JIT is so widely used is to avoid those extra costs, which can become significant. It does depend on the product, some are affected less than others. And having a bigger buffer can be a benefit in some cases.

JIT really helps when there are frequent design changes, as obsolete stock is less likely to accumulate. It's unpopular having to junk a large batch of parts because of an unavoidable product design change. Long term it may well be cheaper to move production out of the UK.

Leroy42 · 23-10-2018 12:07pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

A lot of talk of twitter of being close the the 48 number but may be reached today or tomorrow

https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1054680858332983296

And just like BRexit itself, they have no actual plan on what to do if they do succeed. Who is going to do a better job (anyone I hear you cry!) but in terms of actually getting a better deal from the EU. The EU have laid out pretty clearly what they want and changing leader isn't going to see them change their mind.

On one thing I do agree with TM. It is well past the time that the Tory party should get behind the person they elected to be the leader. They have followed this line that giving any actual details of plans for Brexit is giving an advantage to the EU yet fail to see the damage they are doing to the UK by this constant political maneuvering.

lawred2 · 23-10-2018 12:08pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I know an international company who is in the process of building a warehouse to compensate for loss of JIT components. The only issue for them is the extra cost of the building and the extra cost of having the components in stock.

I also know another international company that is closing their UK branch with the loss of 45 jobs. The company is stating categorically that this is due to worldwide restructuring but I know for a fact that it is due to Brexit.

that's not JIT then

Professor Moriarty · 23-10-2018 12:15pm

lawred2 wrote: »

that's not JIT then

No it's not. Which was my point really, that instead of operating on a JIT basis, they now must have a warehouse full of components. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Oafley Jones · 23-10-2018 12:17pm

swampgas wrote: »

It might be the "only issue", and clearly it works for that company, but it's potentially a huge issue for others. The reason JIT is so widely used is to avoid those extra costs, which can become significant. It does depend on the product, some are affected less than others. And having a bigger buffer can be a benefit in some cases.

JIT really helps when there are frequent design changes, as obsolete stock is less likely to accumulate. It's unpopular having to junk a large batch of parts because of an unavoidable product design change. Long term it may well be cheaper to move production out of the UK.

I recall reading in the Financial Times, that Honda’s operation in Swindon, would require the third largest building on earth for nine days worth of supply, should they loose JIT.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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