Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

17-12-2009 10:00am

In fairness, Sponge Bob has a "wasteful Dublin spending thread."

Cheers for derailing the conversation with ranting. Real smooth guys, real smooth.

corktina · 17-12-2009 10:07am

i only know of one person on here banned from IRN or other railway forum and he hasnt posted today. In fairness, the real person trolling here has a record of derailing threads on here ....

DWCommuter · 17-12-2009 10:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

Clovenhoof, you have to remember that most of these anti-WRC posters are actually refugees from being banned from other rail-specific forums, some are or were highly active with rail lobby groups. They had 6 years of no one saying boo to them here.

Just for the record. I am an anti WRC poster who was active in a rail lobby for 4 years. I was banned from one rail specific forum, but only for being anti-WRC and asking that a WOT rep debate publically with me about the line. I had plenty of people saying "Boo" to me over the years when I did interviews in the western media about my stance. Ive faced up to what I believe in and those who disagreed with me. The original thread is full of pro WRC people. A debate that raged over 5 years ago. Your recent input to this debate is nothing new. I think its unfair to suggest that any WRC thread on boards was a place in which "refugees" had it all their own way.

paulm17781 · 17-12-2009 10:19am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just for the record. I am an anti WRC poster who was active in a rail lobby for 4 years. I was banned from one rail specific forum, but only for being anti-WRC and asking that a WOT rep debate publically with me about the line. I had plenty of people saying "Boo" to me over the years when I did interviews in the western media about my stance. Ive faced up to what I believe in and those who disagreed with me. The original thread is full of pro WRC people. A debate that raged over 5 years ago. Your recent input to this debate is nothing new. I think its unfair to suggest that any WRC thread on boards was a place in which "refugees" had it all their own way.

I also recall you giving some ideas to build up commuter rail services to WoT, who weren't interested because it wasn't the pie in the sky Western flood corridor. But as posted above, if you know that the WRC is a waste of money, you obviously hate the people of the west. :rolleyes:

17-12-2009 10:42am

What interest do I have if one lobbyist goes to an opposing lobby group and makes "suggestions"? I was perfectly happy with this thread's proceedings of logic until westtip's baseless rant. It's the message delivery I'm against, not the message.

westtip · 17-12-2009 11:15am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Bus does not create jobs.

It does for bus drivers clovenhoof and I see you are another the wesht must get this or die on its feet school of thought. My god have you ever been west of the Shannon (if you do bring a sub aqua kit), or maybe you are another silent plant from Claremorris. Mate I think between a number of us we may have written millions of words on this farce of a project, I suggest you refer to the numerous arguments on the old thread.

Hungerford · 17-12-2009 11:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

Clovenhoof, you have to remember that most of these anti-WRC posters are actually refugees from being banned from other rail-specific forums, some are or were highly active with rail lobby groups. They had 6 years of no one saying boo to them here.

Erm... I am not actually an anti-WRC poster. I have consistently argued that a Limerick to Galway railway link, if properly done, could be quite successful.

My issue is that the current scheme isn't properly done as the planned use of inappropriate rolling stock and the flooding problems illustrate.

I even reckon that, longer term, there could be a case for reopening to Tuam as part of a Galway commuter system. Beyond Tuam, I think, is unrealistic at this point.

And - shock horror - I'm from the East and I've always found the other posters on this board most respectful.

Calina · 17-12-2009 12:05pm

dowlingm wrote: »

(As for the latter, the moderators on her site are fierce slow - maybe if I made a comment saying "zomg teh wrc is awesome and I want to have indababies" it might go a bit faster?)

Sorry. I was out last night as I do actually have a life outwith boards.ie commuting/transport.

Deleted User wrote: »

I call troll post.

I call backseat modding and a holiday.

The rest of you - this is getting overly tetchy again. You get too tetchy I will close the thread again.

I am assured you want to discuss this so if we could have that discussion in a constructive manner that would be one hell of a Christmas present for the mod team. I realise emotions run high here so occasionally it might be worth stepping back from the keyboard before hitting submit.

corktina · 17-12-2009 12:31pm

thats good advice and good modding IMHO

Can I just say that MY interest in the WRC stems from an overall concern for railways in Ireland. As a dyed-in-the-wool Railwayac, it concerns me that rail services in Ireland are under threat from
a) lack of investment
b) poor management
c) union interference
d) the economic climate
e) improving roads

amongst other factors.

It appalls me to see to see this money being ploughed into the WRC and creating a second-rate line. I beleive this money could have been used better but now it is spent, I would like to see EITHER more spent to give a reasonable hourly service OR the line forgotten about until the economic climate is better.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 1:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Clovenhoof, you have to remember that most of these anti-WRC posters are actually refugees from being banned from other rail-specific forums, some are or were highly active with rail lobby groups. They had 6 years of no one saying boo to them here.

I am not surprised. The fact is there is something about the tone of their argument which reminds me of the Yugoslavian government in 1988 talking about Bosnia. Just replace Dublin Government with The West of Ireland and you have the same underlying mentality.

It's a war of attrition, first they come for the railways, then the airports and next thing you know you are moved to a housing estate in Clondalkin while your ancesteral home is being planted with pine trees which are to be taken by lorry out of the West to be processed somewhere else.

Enough already - next stop Derry.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 1:46pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just for the record. I am an anti WRC poster who was active in a rail lobby for 4 years. I was banned from one rail specific forum, but only for being anti-WRC and asking that a WOT rep debate publically with me about the line. I had plenty of people saying "Boo" to me over the years when I did interviews in the western media about my stance. Ive faced up to what I believe in and those who disagreed with me. The original thread is full of pro WRC people. A debate that raged over 5 years ago. Your recent input to this debate is nothing new. I think its unfair to suggest that any WRC thread on boards was a place in which "refugees" had it all their own way.

Who are you to demand that WestonTrack explain themselves! Who are you to tell people on the other side of the country what and what not they cannot have! You live in Kildare. I do not see people in Mayo telling you how to live and what infrastructure you can or can't have. We paid for the Western Rail Corridor with our hard earned taxes West of the Shannon. It's our railway. Our people built it, kept it going and depended on it until Todd Andrews (wasn't he a Galway man! HA HA...) took it away.

The sleeping giant has awakened; NEXT STOP DERRY!

Calina · 17-12-2009 1:58pm

ClovenHoof,

lose the attitude on this thread or you too will be on holiday from the forum. This warning is after a warning all of three posts above yours.

Regards,

Calina.

Judgement Day · 17-12-2009 2:00pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Who are you to demand that WestonTrack explain themselves! Who are you to tell people on the other side of the country what and what not they cannot have! You live in Kildare. I do not see people in Mayo telling you how to live and what infrastructure you can or can't have. We paid for the Western Rail Corridor with our hard earned taxes West of the Shannon. It's our railway. Our people built it, kept it going and depended on it until Todd Andrews (wasn't he a Galway man! HA HA...) took it away.

The sleeping giant has awakened; NEXT STOP DERRY!

I don't see what Todd Andrews had to do with the closure of the Limerick/Claremorris line as he was long out of CIE when the line closed in 1975.

Don't get the 'humourous' Galway reference as Andrews was from Dublin?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Andrews

BluntGuy · 17-12-2009 3:08pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Who are you to demand that WestonTrack explain themselves! Who are you to tell people on the other side of the country what and what not they cannot have! You live in Kildare. I do not see people in Mayo telling you how to live and what infrastructure you can or can't have. We paid for the Western Rail Corridor with our hard earned taxes West of the Shannon.

lol

Anyway, ignoring the rest of that silly little tirade, a genuine question:

Can someone give me an explanation of how the transfer at Athenry will work - like, frequency wise and such. I know how the physical transfer will take place (awkward, messy etc.) but what sort of times/delay are we looking at?

dowlingm · 17-12-2009 3:26pm

I really get annoyed when I see reference to stuff like Bosnia, or when people say that a region is getting "raped" when its wishlist isn't fulfilled by government. I would really like it to stop on this board because it is deeply disrespectful to a lot of people who would like nothing more than to have the WRC as their worst problem.

This is a simple issue - how are resources best allocated, taking into account demand patterns, available investment and competing transport modes. The people of Galway have been shortchanged by the opening of the Athenry section because the Oranmore station and double tracking has been left undone and will now remain undone for some time.

Not only is the Limerick-Galway bus service far superior in terms of frequency (wait time to next service is a critical component of journey time) to the proposed train schedule but on the Athlone/Dublin routes time has been lost which the roadbuilders have used to create an M6 passage for BE, Citylink et al. By contrast, a vibrant commuter service between Athlone and Galway and reduced hold ups on Dublin-Galway would have created a more favourable market environment for expansion to Limerick, especially if the correct station allocation was done (Athenry-Gort-Ennis-Sixmilebridge-Longpavement/LIT/Thomond Park-Colbert)

What is clear is that the major infrastructural requirement for the West which has the potential to substantially affect the economy is an examination of the regions water management. Between roads and rails hundreds of millions of Euro of investment was either damaged or made temporarily unavailable and people and products stranded or diverted, and that's before considering the direct impact of water damage on farms, homes and industries - damage which should be of a centennial nature but in the current setup is happening several times a decade. A problem of this magnitude is truly one deserving of a pan-regional response and urgent government support - not least because it has the potential to create economic stimulus.

Hungerford · 17-12-2009 4:07pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Can someone give me an explanation of how the transfer at Athenry will work - like, frequency wise and such. I know how the physical transfer will take place (awkward, messy etc.) but what sort of times/delay are we looking at?

With a railcar, it will take five minutes maximum. Basically, the driver walks from one end of the train to another. All journeys from Limerick to Galway will involve such a switch.

With a locomotive, you should probably double that time (at least) as the loco would have to be uncoupled from the train, 'run round' and then get recoupled up for the next stage of the trip etc.

Rawr · 17-12-2009 4:55pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

lol

Anyway, ignoring the rest of that silly little tirade, a genuine question:

Can someone give me an explanation of how the transfer at Athenry will work - like, frequency wise and such. I know how the physical transfer will take place (awkward, messy etc.) but what sort of times/delay are we looking at?

I was wondering about this too.
Not knowing the layout at Athenry too well...I wonder...is it at all possible to create some kind of loop there to entirely remove the need to change ends?

It's probably not nessisary given that a good chunk of the rail-fleet is now made of railcars. However, if freight ever did become viable on this line (can't imagine how..but you never know), perhaps such a loop would be useful?

Sponge Bob · 17-12-2009 5:33pm

Rawr wrote: »

I was wondering about this too.
Not knowing the layout at Athenry too well...I wonder...is it at all possible to create some kind of loop there to entirely remove the need to change ends?

Absolutely not, west on track wants the train to go straight on to Tuam , not to Galway.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 5:39pm

What about the environmental, sustainabilty aspect of the Western Rail Corridor? Be nice if somebody mentioned this. It's only the future of the planet at stake.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 5:44pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Absolutely not, west on track wants the train to go straight on to Tuam , not to Galway.

Makes sense. That's were the communting population is. Frank Dawson's family were train drivers who worked out of the Tuam shed so there is also a sentimental and emotional reason for this. We would all undertake his herculean efforts to restore the line if your father drove the last locomotive on the line. This is a noble and very worthy crusade he has undertaken. We value our heritage in the West. I think sometimes that people from Dublin underestimate just how deep our blood ties run. Perhaps the issue here is as much cultural as anything else. People in Dublin do just not "get" the West and its folk.

BluntGuy · 17-12-2009 6:03pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Makes sense. That's were the communting population is.

People don't "commute" from Tuam to Limerick. That argument is non-valid.

Frank Dawson's family were train drivers who worked out of the Tuam shed so there is also a sentimental and emotional reason for this. We would all undertake his herculean efforts to restore the line if your father drove the last locomotive on the line. This is a noble and very worthy crusade he has undertaken. We value our heritage in the West. I think sometimes that people from Dublin underestimate just how deep our blood ties run. Perhaps the issue here is as much cultural as anything else. People in Dublin do just not "get" the West and its folk

There is no cultural issue.

The issue is the project is useless and doesn't do what it says on the tin. (a *direct* service from Galway-Limerick does not include a choppy, unnecessary, interchange)

The issue is that the money could've been better spent IN THE WEST.

The issue is that people living in the West have been misguided and misled by groups and people who are themselves misguided and misled (or else just callous and selfish) like "West On Track".

I'm sure the 7 people that use it everyday will extract some benefit from it, but everyone else will quickly realise that it has been a big waste of money. That's is the unfortunate truth.

Sponge Bob · 17-12-2009 6:05pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Makes sense. That's were the communting population is. Frank Dawson's family were train drivers who worked out of the Tuam shed so there is also a sentimental and emotional reason for this. We would all undertake his herculean efforts to restore the line if your father drove the last locomotive on the line. This is a noble and very worthy crusade he has undertaken. We value our heritage in the West. I think sometimes that people from Dublin underestimate just how deep our blood ties run. Perhaps the issue here is as much cultural as anything else. People in Dublin do just not "get" the West and its folk.

Frank is now Roscommon County Manager ...recently however this bit.

" there is also a sentimental and emotional reason for this."

Is not good enough, simply a wrong reason to open any piece of infrastructure.

WOT to my mind have done a grave disservice to infrastructure development in the west overall.

Calina · 17-12-2009 6:10pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Makes sense. That's were the communting population is. Frank Dawson's family were train drivers who worked out of the Tuam shed so there is also a sentimental and emotional reason for this. We would all undertake his herculean efforts to restore the line if your father drove the last locomotive on the line.

This does not make it the right thing for the west. I'd also add that from the point of view one who's depended on rural rail services in other countries, not connecting directly to Galway - the larggest agglomeration in the area - makes NO SENSE whatsoever.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

This is a noble and very worthy crusade he has undertaken. We value our heritage in the West. I think sometimes that people from Dublin underestimate just how deep our blood ties run. Perhaps the issue here is as much cultural as anything else. People in Dublin do just not "get" the West and its folk.

I think you have no idea about people in general. There's a lot to be said for improving public transport outside the Dublin area but same as in Dublin, there needs to be cop on and practical considerations taken into account. Your post is not indicative of common sense in this respect. Sentimentality is no valid reason to set up a train system if it is not practical. People need transport, not follies.

KC61 · 17-12-2009 6:46pm

I suspect that the Tuam line (if ever reopened) would purely be a commuter service into/out of Galway.

I don't think the issue of direct trains onwards along the WRC even arises - I would see it (if it were to happen) as Limerick-Galway and Galway-Tuam-Claremorris with connections where possible at Athenry between the two. The primary market for both routes would be to/from Galway - not through traffic.

The time allowed in the timetable for a standard station stop is 1 to 2 minutes. For a driver to switch ends is allowed 4 minutes minimum. These times are generally longer if two trains are passing one another at the station concerned, to allow some slack for one train being late.

corktina · 17-12-2009 7:03pm

you would have to add some braking and acceleration time and also some time for waiting for the guy who has just parked and is running up the concourse (two hours + to the next train dont forget)

I think you are right about the lack of through Tuam to Limerick passengers (And I doubt there will be a taxi-full north of Tuam...) Galway would be the focus of the service Im sure... (or should be)

westtip · 17-12-2009 8:23pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Absolutely not, west on track wants the train to go straight on to Tuam , not to Galway.

Sponge as was often said in another place - this whole thing is about the northern section or rather the middle bit beteen Claremorris and Athenry. The whole agenda of West on Track was always driven by the "need" to connect Claremorris to Galway by train. I notice that the WOT website has not been touched for a long time save some "news" items about the committment of the government to WRC, but of late nothing has been said - not about the flooding (never see anything negative), not about the really cr*p services that are expected, not about the need to sit and wait in Athenry station for 5/10 minutes; they know the game is up - this complete white elephant is not going to the saviour of the west, the saviour of the west is, as we all know satelite television.

Hungerford · 17-12-2009 9:44pm

Rawr wrote: »

I was wondering about this too.
Not knowing the layout at Athenry too well...I wonder...is it at all possible to create some kind of loop there to entirely remove the need to change ends?

Well, I got the old crayons out and the only way I can see avoiding the switch at Athenry is to bypass the town. The big red line is my bypass, by the way.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 9:49pm

westtip wrote: »

Sponge as was often said in another place - this whole thing is about the northern section or rather the middle bit beteen Claremorris and Athenry.

But think about it. the Western Rail Corridor opened to Claremorris results in a fully integrated rail system at last. Train passengers from Derry, Enniskillen, Knock, Galway, Ballina and Limerick can interchange there. It would be a Clapham Junction for the West. Development would explode. I really cannot fathom the rationale against such rail integration.

I think the eventual goal of a spur to a new deep ocean port at Belmullet makes a lot of sense too.

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 9:51pm

Calina wrote: »

Sentimentality is no valid reason to set up a train system if it is not practical. People need transport, not follies.

Look at how Luas was all about "bring deh dear and darlin tram back me oul schmosa..." They even had an old time Dublin tram on display for the new Point(less) line. That's not sentimentality?

ClovenHoof · 17-12-2009 9:58pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

People don't "commute" from Tuam to Limerick. That argument is non-valid.

You lost me there. A link to Tuam would be for Galway.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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