First Luas, Now the Sunday Business Post Goes to War on the Metro

Transport21 Fan · 09-03-2006 1:11pm

BendiBus wrote:

Don't be so ridiculous. Whatever about this story, do you understand the importance of reputable journalists protecting their sources?

Who the hell needed to be protected in the story about the Luas in the SB Post printed above? I hardly think the RPA was going to break down somebody's front door at 4AM.:rolleyes:

It was not like there was any lible involved either just a biased review of a Luas journey which was untrue. The Luas is not a jolty uncomfortable train journey. So what is the point of protecting this person unless they were a CIE engineer or union official who was ****ting bricks realising the 60 year old scam was up and world class rail trainsport and customer service was possible in Ireland.

Look, I never believe the story which was reported during the 2000 ILDA strike that an ILDA train driver borded a freight train at Claremorris and at gun point order the non-ILDA driver to stop the train. Believe me I wanted to, but unnamed sources simple can't be trusted.

BTW: CIE are the worst public transport provider in the Western World. All the money in the world could not make a decent company out of them. There is no possibility of reforming CIE whatsoever. It's is total termination of this 60 years old property developer if we want to move public transport in this country into the modern age. There is no other option.

Metrobest · 09-03-2006 1:11pm

I don't think most people have a problem with the use of anonymous sources when the story in question is of serious national importance. Crucially, the use of sources should be treated by journalists as a privilege, not a "right" to be abused at will. The above SBP story is just one example of "sources" being used to substantiate bogus news items. We see them in the SINDO every week.

Getting back to the SBP story, you have to give them 10/10 for laziness. The source for the quote "It's the most jolting train ride I've ever had" was likely to be the remarks of another well-oiled journalist in the pub. Do you think the SBP journalist actually stood there in front of the tram and asked somebody what they thought of the luas? And if so, why wouldn't the passenger agree to be named; it's hardly an earth-shattering statement is it?

The sooner Ireland gets a press council, the better.

The "political" source was probably the paper's political reporter, or someone in the pub who knows a taxi driver who once had Mary Coughlan in the back of his cab. Hence they can be decribed as a "political source". Roy Greenslade wrote a very interesting column about sources and how to decode the language to identify who the source really was. It's available at mediaguardian.com

I fall off my chair laughing when I hear the "Irish" media like the SINDO firing potshots at the "Oirish" media like when the Sunday Times consistently has the most factual reporting every week, better than any of the so-called Irish papers. The Sunday Times published the route of the metro about 3 years ago and it's pretty much what's been announced in T21.

BendiBus · 09-03-2006 1:27pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

unless you have a named source after the quotations, it is downright lies - simple as that. There is no grey area. It either is, or isn't the truth.

You argued against the idea of unnamed sources. I pointed out this was complete rubbish. Why can't you accept that?

I haven't defended the SBP story. I basically said it was crap. I clearly said the use of "sources" was valueless.

I agree with Metrobests post if that helps clarify my position.

Your pathological hatred of CIÉ is just a bit silly at this stage. That's not a defence of CIÉ. It's a comment on your approach.

Transport21 Fan · 09-03-2006 3:41pm

BendiBus wrote:

You argued against the idea of unnamed sources. I pointed out this was complete rubbish. Why can't you accept that?

I haven't defended the SBP story. I basically said it was crap. I clearly said the use of "sources" was valueless.

I agree with Metrobests post if that helps clarify my position.

Your pathological hatred of CIÉ is just a bit silly at this stage. That's not a defence of CIÉ. It's a comment on your approach.

CIE are a terrible transport company and most of CIE union members are greedy, money hungry, slackers and their viceral self-serving culture makes most of the "fat cats" look altuistic. This is not a pathological hated, this is fact. Look at the rest of the postings on this board. CIE is simply dispised by public transport users in this country and they only have themselves to blame.

Now before you get annoyed I am not, nor have I once implied that you are like this. So stop taking this so personally. This is the problem with the CIE unions, the goods ones who care are dammed by the silence when their fellow commades behave in the most disgraceful manner. Which they do far too often.

I agree with you on unnamed sources being projected in say a criminal case dealing with drug dealers or something, but the Luas...com'on now.

Transport21 Fan · 09-03-2006 3:49pm

Metrobest wrote:

I fall off my chair laughing when I hear the "Irish" media like the SINDO firing potshots at the "Oirish" media like when the Sunday Times consistently has the most factual reporting every week, better than any of the so-called Irish papers. The Sunday Times published the route of the metro about 3 years ago and it's pretty much what's been announced in T21.

The Sunday Times is by far the best newspaper. Some of the editorials on the trade unions have been bang on.

I wonder if it is a requirement to have spent at least a month in Saint Pat's screaming at imaginary demons crawling the walls, while laying in a pool of your own vomit in order to get a job in the Indo or Herald?

BendiBus · 09-03-2006 3:55pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

CIE are a terrible transport company and most of CIE union members are greedy, money hungry, slackers and their viceral self-serving culture makes most of the "fat cats" look altuistic.

That's nasty and it's garbage. Which proves my point about your attitude rather than anything about CIÉ, it's management, staff or unions.

shoegirl · 09-03-2006 6:25pm

BrianD wrote:

Well they are right and there needs to be a fight put up against the Airport-Duck Pond metro route. Please kill this project now!

There is no place for this project in this city unless it terminates in Swords and serves Connolly Station. There is no pressing need for the airport service other than a by the way.

Who will use a metro to the airport?

A family going on holiday? No, convenient more eonomical to drive and park.
A person travelling from outside Dublin? No, as there are no rail connections so it is more convenient to take a direct bus link.
A business traveller? Maybe as long as they are going to the city centre but will probably take a taxi and charge it.
An airport worker? Yes, if they live on the route and work 9-5. No, if they don't!

Ask yourself, How many times do you travel to the airport per annum?

The project is a white elephant and it needs to be stopped before good money is wasted.

Yes but most of the criticism (including Platform 11 who I no longer have any time for due to this) has been opposition to the Metro extending to Swords. There are few who question the need for an alternative to airport transport itself since the roads are very heavily congested.

I would add to this however, that a huge percentage of workers in the airport have parking spaces and drive to work all the time. The percentage of airport workers who actually use the bus is pitiful - and it always has been.

The fact that there is no price being made public is an issue for concern, but I suspect it is to attempt to pre-empt potential bidders from hiking up the cost to the price tag if it costs less.

Swords DESPERATELY needs this. The public transport there is one of the worst in Ireland proportionate to the population and it is still growing at an alarming rate. My only concern is that the location of the Metro station will be too far away for many people living in the Rivervalley/Brackenstown regions, who are up to 2 miles from the village already.

maxheadroom · 09-03-2006 6:56pm

shoegirl wrote:

Yes but most of the criticism (including Platform 11 who I no longer have any time for due to this) has been opposition to the Metro extending to Swords. There are few who question the need for an alternative to airport transport itself since the roads are very heavily congested.

Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but are you suggesting that P11 was against extending the metro to Swords? If so, so you have a link? I've only ever seen them campaign for the metro to go to Swords in the first phase, rather than as an extension.

jdivision · 09-03-2006 7:39pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

My favourite anti-Luas story is still the one the Sunday Business Post which claimed that Luas had put Bewleys Cafe's out of business even though not one Bewley's branch is even close to a Luas line.
******
Elsewhere on Boards.ie it is reported that Bewley's blamed the Luas in part, so you could be wrong there again. Your remark about unnamed sources being lies is laughable, Ever hear of Watergate? Unnamed sources throughout. But that was all a lie anyway. Wasn't it. Unnamed sources are used widely in the media - when a statement says a source close to a politician, that's often the politician themselves but for whatever reason they don't want to be quoted. :rolleyes:

wwhyte · 09-03-2006 7:51pm

jdivision wrote:

My favourite anti-Luas story is still the one the Sunday Business Post which claimed that Luas had put Bewleys Cafe's out of business even though not one Bewley's branch is even close to a Luas line.
******
Elsewhere on Boards.ie it is reported that Bewley's blamed the Luas in part, so you could be wrong there again.

Well, failing businesses blame everything they can. I don't know how much weight to put on that.

jdivision wrote:

Your remark about unnamed sources being lies is laughable, Ever hear of Watergate? Unnamed sources throughout. But that was all a lie anyway. Wasn't it. Unnamed sources are used widely in the media - when a statement says a source close to a politician, that's often the politician themselves but for whatever reason they don't want to be quoted. :rolleyes:

Right. But unnamed/anonymous sources should still be treated more cautiously than named ones. And journalists often have a tendency to go with the best story, particularly on some of our papers.

jdivision · 09-03-2006 7:55pm

Metrobest wrote:

Getting back to the SBP story, you have to give them 10/10 for laziness. The source for the quote "It's the most jolting train ride I've ever had" was likely to be the remarks of another well-oiled journalist in the pub.
Do you think the SBP journalist actually stood there in front of the tram and asked somebody what they thought of the luas? And if so, why wouldn't the passenger agree to be named; it's hardly an earth-shattering statement is it?

Why wouldn't they have? And if the person doesn't want to be named, that's their right too

Metrobest wrote:

The "political" source was probably the paper's political reporter, or someone in the pub who knows a taxi driver who once had Mary Coughlan in the back of his cab.

Again you have no proof of that. could even have been Coughlan herself

jdivision · 09-03-2006 7:57pm

wwhyte wrote:

Right. But unnamed/anonymous sources should still be treated more cautiously than named ones.

Agreed, but we don't know who the sources are so we can't judge

shltter · 09-03-2006 8:10pm

I honestly can't believe that people have wasted so much time on this thread

T21 hates CIE and he tried to link CIE to a story in the SBP that was critical of his beloved LUAS

There is no link

Newspapers print stories that are not true this is hardly shocking they do it all the time
Anyone listening to joe duffy the last couple of days would have heard the lies that they have printed about people particulbalrly when they are dead.
Newspapers lie they do it all the time
T21 hates CIE and unions ( although we wont mention that SIPTU is in CIE and the beloved LUAS or that the RPA is an offshoot of CIE)

Nothing new here move on

monument · 09-03-2006 9:48pm

Metrobest wrote:

I don't think most people have a problem with the use of anonymous sources when the story in question is of serious national importance. Crucially, the use of sources should be treated by journalists as a privilege, not a "right" to be abused at will.

Only to be used for things of ‘serious national importance’? That’s far different from ‘the public interest’ which is the current norm.

Metrobest wrote:

The above SBP story is just one example of "sources" being used to substantiate bogus news items.

Can you back that up?

Metrobest wrote:

Getting back to the SBP story, you have to give them 10/10 for laziness. The source for the quote "It's the most jolting train ride I've ever had" was likely to be the remarks of another well-oiled journalist in the pub.

:rolleyes:

Take your comment in a context of a published opinion article, or maybe not, even the Sunday World might have a problem publishing the above.

Metrobest wrote:

Do you think the SBP journalist actually stood there in front of the tram and asked somebody what they thought of the luas? And if so, why wouldn't the passenger agree to be named; it's hardly an earth-shattering statement is it?

As the article was pre-Luas launch, the person may have been in a position to get in trouble for saying things to the media – a possibility, not a certainty.

Metrobest wrote:

The "political" source was probably the paper's political reporter, or someone in the pub who knows a taxi driver who once had Mary Coughlan in the back of his cab. Hence they can be decribed as a "political source".

By your way of thinking, the "political source" could have been Coughlan.

John_C wrote:

No, I think that would be an over reaction to something you read on the internet. Ironically, you would yourself be depending on an anonomus source.

I wouldn’t have thought anybody would have taking that comment seriously.

John_C wrote:

For the record I said 'almost certainly not true' which has a different meaning.

I was referring to the report that the luas was the most jolty train that this person had ever been on. I've been on the luas myself and found it not at all jolty. That quote could only be true if this source had only ever been on super smooth trains in some foreign country.

First, apologies for the misquote. As I’ve said, I have problems with the article, but people here are going over the top.

It doesn’t matter if it was at the time the joltiest tram in the world, the problem is the source is not attributed to some kind of rail transport specialist. It’s just a source, that’s the problem.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Who the hell needed to be protected in the story about the Luas in the SB Post printed above? I hardly think the RPA was going to break down somebody's front door at 4AM.:rolleyes:

Remember how you have stated people don’t step out of line at CIE, well it’s apparently somewhat the same in all parts of government, government bodies, and “semi-state” companies.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The Luas is not a jolty uncomfortable train journey. So what is the point of protecting this person unless they were a CIE engineer or union official who was ****ting bricks realising the 60 year old scam was up and world class rail trainsport and customer service was possible in Ireland.

Here’s your problem with the article - even the slight possibly that the comment was from “a CIE engineer or union official”.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Look, I never believe the story which was reported during the 2000 ILDA strike that an ILDA train driver borded a freight train at Claremorris and at gun point order the non-ILDA driver to stop the train. Believe me I wanted to, but unnamed sources simple can't be trusted.

BTW: CIE are the worst public transport provider in the Western World. All the money in the world could not make a decent company out of them. There is no possibility of reforming CIE whatsoever. It's is total termination of this 60 years old property developer if we want to move public transport in this country into the modern age. There is no other option.

Any more CIE rants? Get it all out, go on…

wwhyte · 09-03-2006 10:53pm

jdivision wrote:

Agreed, but we don't know who the sources are so we can't judge

That's why you have to treat them with caution!

Transport21 Fan · 10-03-2006 1:01am

monument wrote:

Any more CIE rants? Get it all out, go on…

Heavily armed CIE managers and union officials bashed their way into South Sligo today and stole our weather - they're giving it to SIPTU as I type, I managed to hide a bit of the weather in the Fridge but they kicked my door down threw the baby on the fire, raped my grandmother beat me with an IE safety vest and then ILDA lined all my neighbours up in the garden and shot them badly damaging my shed in the process. They also kicked a small
dog that was trying to help.

Just thought I'd tell you, we're all sitting here in the dark becuase Brendan Ogle moved to the ESB - but he has not forgotten the brothers he left behind in CIE and a quick phonecall sorted me out. I expect censorship will keep it out of the next issue of Liberty. The Labour Party as usual are doing nothing about it, the Socialists Workers Party are still on their holidays and the Catholic Primate told us all gods children got weather. The strain of living in a repressive CIE apartheid hell is starting to get to me.

Metrobest · 10-03-2006 8:58am

monument wrote:

Only to be used for things of ‘serious national importance’? That’s far different from ‘the public interest’ which is the current norm.

Why not "serious national importance"? If the story is not of importance to the nation, and cannot be substantiated by hard fact, it should not be published. Such tittle-tattle is fine for celebrity gossip in the tabloids and so forth, but a quality newspaper trading in "hard news" should be relying on hard facts.

The "public interest" is more accurately translated as "what the public is interested in", which is an entirely different matter altogether. "Public interest" can be applied to almost any story. That's why we need a press council to keep a leash on our out-of-control media.

jdivision · 10-03-2006 12:24pm

Metrobest wrote:

That's why we need a press council to keep a leash on our out-of-control media.

That's hilarious

John_C · 10-03-2006 3:07pm

Metrobest wrote:

That's why we need a press council to keep a leash on our out-of-control media.

I think putting a leash on the media might be a but extreme, the medcine might be worse than the ailment. A good Idea would be some sort of 'highlight a stupid story' forum.

shltter · 10-03-2006 5:08pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Heavily armed CIE managers and union officials bashed their way into South Sligo today and stole our weather - they're giving it to SIPTU as I type, I managed to hide a bit of the weather in the Fridge but they kicked my door down threw the baby on the fire, raped my grandmother beat me with an IE safety vest and then ILDA lined all my neighbours up in the garden and shot them badly damaging my shed in the process. They also kicked a small
dog that was trying to help.

Just thought I'd tell you, we're all sitting here in the dark becuase Brendan Ogle moved to the ESB - but he has not forgotten the brothers he left behind in CIE and a quick phonecall sorted me out. I expect censorship will keep it out of the next issue of Liberty. The Labour Party as usual are doing nothing about it, the Socialists Workers Party are still on their holidays and the Catholic Primate told us all gods children got weather. The strain of living in a repressive CIE apartheid hell is starting to get to me.

Is that the same SIPTU that represents the gods who drive Luas trams or are there 2 SIPTUs

Transport21 Fan · 10-03-2006 5:55pm

shltter wrote:

Is that the same SIPTU that represents the gods who drive Luas trams or are there 2 SIPTUs

*woosh*

monument · 10-03-2006 10:22pm

Metrobest wrote:

Why not "serious national importance"? If the story is not of importance to the nation, and cannot be substantiated by hard fact, it should not be published. Such tittle-tattle is fine for celebrity gossip in the tabloids and so forth, but a quality newspaper trading in "hard news" should be relying on hard facts.

The "public interest" is more accurately translated as "what the public is interested in", which is an entirely different matter altogether. "Public interest" can be applied to almost any story. That's why we need a press council to keep a leash on our out-of-control media.

‘The public interest’, as in, in the public interest (advantage), not the public's interest (curiosity).

Metrobest · 11-03-2006 9:54am

monument wrote:

‘The public interest’, as in, in the public interest (advantage), not the public's interest (curiosity).

A noble theory, but looking at the reality of the media business in Ireland today, there is a general trend downmarket. A lot of stories which are truly in the public interest, as you define it, never make it into the national papers. Newspapers have to strike a balance between what they think readers want to read, and what they should read. Don't be under any illusion that newspaper editorial staff are sitting there every day pondering how they can educate and inform the public. It's about sales, it's about ratings, it's about advertising, profit, and survival.

World news is a key example of the lipservice Irish media pays to "public interest." RTE1 News has a policy of always leading on an Irish story (barring a tsunami or something..), because they fear that the audience will switch off. I have a problem with these policies because they underestimate the intelligence of the audience.

murphaph · 11-03-2006 12:46pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

*woosh*

Yeah, I heard it too!

Transport21 Fan · 02-04-2006 2:42am

Look who the SB Post have brought back to Ireland for their latest anti-RPA/Luas/Metro crusade. The Sunday Business Post seems to have a real issue with sizeable money (translation: "the required amount") in this country being spent on RPA rail projects. They have fallen for the CIE "on time and under budget" spoofery smokescreen - hook, line and sinker.

But then again, the SB Post hacks are not public transport users and have no idea that the actual service which results from the CIE "on time and under budget" is generally pathetic - a classic CIE tokenistic facade posing at meaningful public transport. You get what you pay for when you come in "on time and under budget". Spencer Dock surface station being the case in hand.

I have come to the conclusion that the so called "cost overruns" in reality equals "doing the job correctly". The RPA metro being a classic example of not spending the full amount in order to get a fully integrated metro.

No doubt the mad-arsed Western Rail Corridor will come in "on time and under budget" as well. Do any of these morons in the Irish media and dumb assed polticians realise that the actual service/end product which this investment provides is the most important aspect of infrastructual spending?

Infrastructure summit to focus on cutting overruns

02 April 2006
The inaugural National Infrastructure Summit takes place next May 16 and 17 at the IMI Conference Centre on Sandyford Road in Dublin. The event is organised and promoted by The Sunday Business Post and iQuest.

Sponsored by Project Management Group, the summit is aimed at people working in the planning, delivery and financing of public infrastructure. It will examine the key issues facing government and the private sector in the delivery of efficient and reliable infrastructure services.

Issues to be discussed include how to deliver public infrastructure efficiently, how to manage the construction of major capital investment projects and how cost overruns can be avoided.

There will be a number of case studies from home and abroad on major project delivery and financing.

Speakers include the Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen; the Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen; well-known business leader Ulick McEvaddy; Anne Counihan, chief executive of the National Development Finance Agency; and Dr Sean Barrett from Trinity College, Dublin.

Bent Flyvbjerg, Professor of Planning at Aalborg University, Denmark, will speak on his research into ‘‘mega projects’’ – large infrastructure investment projects where cost overruns are common.

Professor Manuel J Melis, president of Metro de Madrid, Spain, the man behind Madrid’s metro system, will be speaking on this theme at the summit.

Melis told the government in 2003 that the Dublin Metro could be built at a fraction of the proposed time and cost.

International case study presentations will include the Saudi-Aramco Haradh Gas Pipeline, winner of the 2004 Project Management Institute Project of the Year.

The project’s director, Salem H Shaheen, will present this case study on how the €2 billion gas terminal in the Saudi Arabian desert was completed six months ahead of schedule and 27 per cent below budget.

Further case studies on project financing will be delivered by Finn Lyden of SIAC Construction, Iain Salley of Bovis Lend Lease and Mike Davis of Catalyst Lend Lease in Britain.

For further information, please call Miriam McEvitt in The Sunday Business Post on 01–6026015, e-mail conference@sbpost.ie or visit www.thepost.ie/event to view the full agenda and to book online.

monument · 02-04-2006 2:58pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

But then again, the SB Post hacks are not public transport users

And you know this how exactly? Not even one of them?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I have come to the conclusion that the so called "cost overruns" in reality equals "doing the job correctly".

Your problem looks to be with original estimates, which seam to be done on the back of envelopes.

Anyway, by your posting record it’s hard to see if you have even an inch of impartiality when it comes to the RPA and/or CIE.

A Dub in Glasgo · 02-04-2006 5:35pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Look who the SB Post have brought back to Ireland for their latest anti-RPA/Luas/Metro crusade. The Sunday Business Post seems to have a real issue with sizeable money (translation: "the required amount") in this country being spent on RPA rail projects. They have fallen for the CIE "on time and under budget" spoofery smokescreen - hook, line and sinker.

But then again, the SB Post hacks are not public transport users and have no idea that the actual service which results from the CIE "on time and under budget" is generally pathetic - a classic CIE tokenistic facade posing at meaningful public transport. You get what you pay for when you come in "on time and under budget". Spencer Dock surface station being the case in hand.

I have come to the conclusion that the so called "cost overruns" in reality equals "doing the job correctly". The RPA metro being a classic example of not spending the full amount in order to get a fully integrated metro.

No doubt the mad-arsed Western Rail Corridor will come in "on time and under budget" as well. Do any of these morons in the Irish media and dumb assed polticians realise that the actual service/end product which this investment provides is the most important aspect of infrastructual spending?

This is a conference organised to discuss major infrastructure projects including oil, gas, road, industrial and rail projects. For you, the fact that the SBP are involved means they are against rail investment in Ireland

Cost overruns can come out of many variables including but not limited to

- poor scope of works/remit/specification
- poor tender evaluation
- client changing their mind
- client delay in agreeing the project deliverables
- effect of new standards/laws/directives
- poor project management

There is a difference in cost cutting and delivering a project to time and budget.

Winters · 02-04-2006 6:05pm

Professor Manuel J Melis, president of Metro de Madrid, Spain, the man behind Madrid’s metro system, will be speaking on this theme at the summit.

Melis told the government in 2003 that the Dublin Metro could be built at a fraction of the proposed time and cost..

This statement is misleading. While Professor Melis did indeed say he could build the Dublin Metro at a fraction of the proposed time and cost, he was talking about using Madrid cost estimates.

When he used the actual construction cost estimates procedure used to cost all major projects in Ireland and pitted it against his they came out relatively the same.

Put it this way he was astounded to hear that the site manager on the Kilbeggan - Kilcock motorway was earning more money that him.

Transport21 Fan · 02-04-2006 6:35pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There is a difference in cost cutting and delivering a project to time and budget.

This Spanish gentleman who is well qualified and has the credentials which deserve respect, is I suspect being brought in once again, as an unknowing pawn in order to undermine the Dublin Metro and to "prove" the RPA are idiots.

No doubt we'll get more insight into how they did it cheaper in Madrid - but unlike Dublin the people there not owning the land underneath their feet to the centre of the earth is not the major issue and fact of life that it is here. In Madrid, they just tunnel, in Dublin we have to pay the people fortunate enough living above before we can tunnel. Having the likes Tara Skryne and the Carrickminers does not help either. As soon as any major project is announced in this country they first thing that happens is a NIMBY group is down the courts filing objections. I would love to see how much better
Professor Manuel J Melis would cope if he had to build a metro in Dublin and how much more competent he would be be compared to the RPA if he had to deal with our penny pinching polticians, cowboy construction firms, NIMBYs and assorted greddy bastards we have over here. Now that would be a comparative analysis worth undertaking.

The overall thrust of the conference I have no problem with and we have had more theives and robbers working on major public projects in this country who should be exposed. But the Metro is being singled out here for special treatment by the SB Post - AGAIN...

The SB Post would to even the most casual observer appear to have a vendetta against the RPA. They have been working on it for a couple of years now. For some strange reason they have no problem with CIE...

There seems to be a common pattern which goes something like this. ie: CIE spend money on major advertising and promos in the Post and Indo and for some strange reason these two papers seem to have it in for anything the RPA does. Maybe the RPA need to take a page form the CIE handbook and put public transport development on the backburner and spend millions and million on PR, advertising, property speculation and they might get some respect from the SB Post and Sir Tony.

Silly RPA, too busy actually designing and building state of the art rail systems and not blowing vast sums of money on self-promotion and misleading TV ads in between building office blocks and luxury apartment like CIE...tut...tut...

Once again I have to say it. If we want world class motorways, metros, railways and bridges in this country we are going to have to spend, spend, spend. This is a fact of life we cannot escape. The "on time and under budget" CIE approach has been proven to deliver nothing real in terms of major improvments (other than major apartment blocks) and at best only plays catch-up for a sort time.

Serious infrastructure costs serious money.

monument · 02-04-2006 7:22pm

Maybe I am the only one, but I can recall more RPA adverts then Irish Rail adverts. In recent years, the only Irish Rail advert I can think of is the one here.

There’s loads of adverts in the papers that I can recall for the Luas, and the Metro - from pre-construction to ‘we’re running extra services at such and such dates’.

I’m sure you have “proof” (as you say) that Irish Rail or even CIE spend more in advertisements relative to their networks sizes compared to the RPA?

I’m sure you’ll also have proof that the have spent comparably more on adverts in the SBPost and the Indo, then any other paper?

Also, with regards to CIE and the RPA, you, and others here to a lesser extent, look to ignore that both are essentially branches of government, whose major projects as well as major faults are the government’s responsibility.

On professor Melis, strangely you have given valid reasons why he can be critical of our systems – so I can only conclude that your problem is your beloved RPA looks to be getting some of the blame.

Nobody has an issue with “Serious infrastructure” costing “serious money”, the issue is what “serious money” amounts to and is such coupled with the end product value money. If PPARS and electronic voting are extreme examples of waste, and if, in the end, public-private partnership on the building and tolling of roads is an extreme example of how projects can be more costly to the taxpayer*, is it not just prudent to healthy question, and scrutinise all major projects?

Is it ‘not willing’ or ‘not able’ to answer my questions in regards to the Post’s hacks and their public transport usage?

* your example of building apartments on old rail yards could be another example of ‘value for money’ now, ending in something possibly being more costly (monetary terms or not) in years to come.

First Luas, Now the Sunday Business Post Goes to War on the Metro

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