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Genealogy of Travellers

  • 17-01-2015 12:22am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭


    I was once talking to a friend, whose surname is Mac an Bhaird (son of the poet), about his surname.

    He pointed out that the English version of his surname is Ward. His ancestors were occasionally mistaken as travellers (Ward being a typical traveller surname in that location) and had therefore Gaelicised their name.

    Although the original name Mac an Bhaird is likely to predate the origins of Irish travellers, I thought the association between poets and tinkers: wordsmiths and smithy people; occupied in tenuous employment, tending to lead to a nomadic, non-landowning lifestyle, was an interesting one.

    Are there any significant studies on the genealogy of the Travellers?


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Great thread idea. To answer your question, I don't know of any.

    There was a doc a few years ago, Blood of the Travellers, that did a DNA analysis of traveller people. I think the conclusion was that the results backed the idea of them being ethnically different to 'settled' Irish people.

    If there are no genealogy studies, I'm sure there are anthropological/sociological investigations that can give provide interesting secondary evidence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Off topic, but a little realted when we think of the broader filed of the genealogy of groups who are discriminated against, is a fascinated blog post I read last year about the genealogy of gay people by Thomas McEntee, a genealogist here in the US.

    If anyone is interested I'll start a thread on it and dig it up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I cannot see that topic going anywhere 'nice', given the remarks and position of some experts, particularly James Watson, the Nobel winning scientist who with Francis Crick discovered the double helix structure of DNA.

    Irish people were forced to take surnames and to stop using patronimics. As a result many took a similar-sounding name e.g. Ward/Mac an bhaird and e.g. Magown/MacGabhann/Smith.
    The Ward name has nothing to do with tin or word smithing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    Irish people were forced to take surnames and to stop using patronimics. As a result many took a similar-sounding name e.g. Ward/Mac an bhaird and e.g. Magown/MacGabhann/Smith.
    The Ward name has nothing to do with tin or word smithing.
    :confused:

    It derives from Mac an Bhaird.

    I think you should stop pre-empting nastiness, or suggestions of racism, when nobody at all has gone down that route. Are we not allowed to take an interest in travellers for fear that someone says something nasty? This is a genealogy forum, I would assume people are better-able to control themselves than somewhere like After Hours. I'm asking about the genealogy and origins of travellers because it seems interesting. Nothing else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Irish people were forced to take surnames and to stop using patronimics. As a result many took a similar-sounding name e.g. Magown/MacGabhann/Smith.

    Pedro could you expand on this maybe, or anyone else for that matter? I find the whole subject fascinating. My mother's maiden name is Smith, from Cavan, and I've often wondered why, how and when it was anglicised from the Irish. In what century did most of these changes take place?

    On the other side I have the name (O')Dowd/Doud which is anglicised as such in all baptism and land records going back as far as the 1830s. These were Kerry people and I presume (should I in fact?) Gaelic speakers. So why were they not recorded as O'Dubhda? :confused: The land records were filled in by English speakers, alright, I get that, but shouldn't the native priests have been using Irish in the church registers?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    It seems any genetic differences of the travellers stems from the fact they formed their own group and there wasn't much marrying outside of it.
    I can't remember the name of the Olympic boxer (Barret maybe), but he belonged to the most common male lineage in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    Although not intending to dwell too heavily on any potential link between travellers and the Gaelic bards, and the surname 'Ward', I did come across a couple of books which suggest a similar link.

    Padraig MacGreine, who did some research for the Department of Folklore at UCD in the 1930s, described the travellers as 'scolares vagantes', and said they were the medium for the spread of folk tales and other traditions. It is interesting to note that Ireland had a series of wandering bardic schools roaming the countryside right up until the 18th century. Is this link to travellers too tenuous? Certainly, but it's an interesting idea worthy of investigation.

    Unfortunately, a number of obvious problems confront us in trying to trace the genealogical past of individual traveller families and linking them to such bardic schools or indeed deciphering any aspect of their history at all.

    Firstly, of course, they were nomadic and we cannot tie them to particular parishes.

    Secondly, they seem not to have observed the same marital customs as settled Irish catholics, with widespread claims of wife-swapping and failure to observe traditional marital conventions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    I think Travelers are simply descended from Irish people who never intermarried with and adopted cultural ideas and norms from the successive waves of invaders that came to and settled in Ireland. Their ancestors were probably nomadic before the arrival of the Norsemen and later on the Normans.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Although not intending to dwell too heavily on any potential link between travellers and the Gaelic bards, and the surname 'Ward', I did come across a couple of books which suggest a similar link.

    Padraig MacGreine, who did some research for the Department of Folklore at UCD in the 1930s, described the travellers as 'scolares vagantes', and said they were the medium for the spread of folk tales and other traditions. It is interesting to note that Ireland had a series of wandering bardic schools roaming the countryside right up until the 18th century. Is this link to travellers too tenuous? Certainly, but it's an interesting idea worthy of investigation.

    Unfortunately, a number of obvious problems confront us in trying to trace the genealogical past of individual traveller families and linking them to such bardic schools or indeed deciphering any aspect of their history at all.

    Firstly, of course, they were nomadic and we cannot tie them to particular parishes.

    Secondly, they seem not to have observed the same marital customs as settled Irish catholics, with widespread claims of wife-swapping and failure to observe traditional marital conventions.
    I've no idea where that comes from.... as a generality, Traveller women will not 'sleep' with their boyfriends until marriage and generally are very chaste lot. Just because they did not necessarily use the traditional marital convention of a church ceremony in the 19th century cannot be extrapolated to a claim of wife-swapping.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    mod9maple wrote: »
    Pedro could you expand on this maybe, or anyone else for that matter? I find the whole subject fascinating. My mother's maiden name is Smith, from Cavan, and I've often wondered why, how and when it was anglicised from the Irish. In what century did most of these changes take place?

    On the other side I have the name (O')Dowd/Doud which is anglicised as such in all baptism and land records going back as far as the 1830s. These were Kerry people and I presume (should I in fact?) Gaelic speakers. So why were they not recorded as O'Dubhda? :confused: The land records were filled in by English speakers, alright, I get that, but shouldn't the native priests have been using Irish in the church registers?

    I agree, Surnames are a fascinating topic (maybe better to give it its own thread?)

    I got ‘into’ the subject when researching my own surname when a conflict arose between my genealogy work and a claim by my grandfather that the surname was an anglicised version of an Irish one!

    Keating (he of Foras Feasa) claimed that surnames were established by an edict of Brian Boru, which is a bit odd as Brian had no surname (Boru = of the tributes) and it was his grandson’s era when the surname Ó Briain or O’Brien first came into being.

    The Statutes of Kilkenny (passed in 1366) were an attempt to stop ‘creeping’ Irishness and one of the clauses required that every Englishman should use the English language and not follow Irish ‘naming patterns’.
    By the end of the twelfth century hereditary surnames had become common in England (mine is recorded as such several times in the Domesday Book), but even as late as 1465 surnames were not universal. During the reign of Edward IV, a law (1483) was passed to compel “certaine Irish” to adopt surnames - this was designed as a method to track and control them more easily: “They shall take unto them a Surname, ………………..either of some Town, or some Colour, as Black or Brown, or some Art or Science, as Smyth or Carpenter, or some Office, as Cooke or Butler.” This law primarily was aimed at and applied to those living in the Pale.

    It’s a slight oversimplification, but from around 1500 many families ‘fixed’ their then current sept names as a surname e.g. McCarthy, O’Connor, etc., and others adopted a trade name.

    Later (c1600) the poet/government servant Spenser was moaning about the Irish following the old system and using ‘O’ and ‘Mac’.

    Edward MacLysaght – the main man for Irish surnames – wrote that as late as the seventeenth century there were still numbers of people among “the lower orders” without surnames.

    Genealogically, where it gets really confusing is when Irish people named MacGabhann adopt the English version ‘Smith’ or a half-way version – Magowan, although it is believed that most of the Smiths in Ireland are of English origin. Some of the ‘Judge’ surname are actually MacBrehon; Clarkes can be Irish (O’Cleirigh) or English (Clark), and an old Irish name, O’Glaisir has been anglicised to Glazier, incorrectly suggesting an ‘occupational’ name. McWilliams is really Burke which is from the Norman de Burgo. Today the yachtsman/businessman known as Enda O’Coineen was Enda Rabbitte as a child. Also, there was no standardization as names evolved or were changed, eg. O’Murchoe to Morrow, Morrogh (or McMorrough) and Murphy; or Ó hEachighearna to Ahearne / Ahearn / Ahern / Aherne and Hearn + variants. The McCarthy name in old texts usually is McCarthie, the list is endless…….

    Then there is the confusion in areas where a surname is very frequent and known locally as something quite different, often creeping into officialdom - e.g. the surname Dorraghy can be O’Sullivan, shortened from O’Sullivan Dorraghy, the Dorraghy being used to differentiate them from other O’Sullivans. Ryans in Tipperary follow a similar naming-tag pattern. Also, Neill can be from McNeill (usually Scottish) or O’Neill (Irish) or McNeill could really be O’Neill when people again started to use the O/Mc and put back the incorrect prefix. Back in the late 1800’s before the Gaelic revival about 75% of one family name was simply ‘Sullivan’ whereas today about 75% are recorded as O’Sullivan.

    As for records, official state ones were not kept for the ‘masses’ prior to legislation requiring it be done; church records often were written not by a priest but by the parish clerk (not always fully literate). Because most of the population was illiterate and spelling phonetic, all sorts of variations arose and frequently the Christian name was in Latin. Memory also came into it – imagine a priest ‘on tour’ around his parish, on horseback, doing baptisms / marriages and funerals – write the record on a bit of paper or notebook, put it in a pocket, then fill in the ledger with all the names when he got back to the church – if the paper was not lost, was not water-logged and the ink did not run - so it is not surprising there are huge errors, omissions and variations.

    On your Smith /MacGabhann, and for others with “English” surnames probably – no doubt someone can confirm/deny - the DNA test on markers is the safest way for people to ascertain if their name is Irish or English in origin.

    Matheson’s book on surname frequency and distribution is quite an interesting read even if a bit ‘statistical’.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    I think the idea of starting a new thread for surnames is a great idea. Maybe everyone then could add their own thoughts on not just their own ancestral names but comment in general on the subject. Maybe start a new one with this post, or will I do it?

    Thanks for your post btw - the only word for it is fascinating, even though I'm repeating myself. The words on the Smith surname intrigue me; I had no idea that it's thought most Irish Smiths are of English extraction. My Smiths are from Cavan/Armagh - they seemed to move back and forth between the two since 1810, which is the furthest back I've been able to trace them. I've never really taken an interest in DNA but maybe I should! Food for thought anyway.

    As regards (O')Dowd/Doud - again your thoughts on how parish records were recorded are interesting. Some of my ancestors have the O', some don't, even within one family of the same generation! And none in Gaelic, all in English. Your post has certainly given me more to think about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    I've bookmarked the link for Matheson's book and I'll have a read, thanks.


  • Site Banned Posts: 12 karlmarker


    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    I've no idea where that comes from.... as a generality, Traveller women will not 'sleep' with their boyfriends until marriage and generally are very chaste lot. Just because they did not necessarily use the traditional marital convention of a church ceremony in the 19th century cannot be extrapolated to a claim of wife-swapping.
    Why don't you just ask for a source instead of going on the defensive? This is the second time you've appeared defensive for no reason. This is a sub-forum of history can we just leave our sensitivity outside? It is already common knowledge that wife-swapping is not a serious accusation that can be made against travellers in the 21st century.

    It was a common claim in the 19th century as described by the accounts of Lady Gregory and others, see Racism and the Politics of Culture: Irish Travellers, by Jane Helleiner; pp. 44-45 .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    conorh91 wrote: »
    Why don't you just ask for a source instead of going on the defensive? This is the second time you've appeared defensive for no reason. This is a sub-forum of history can we just leave our sensitivity outside? It is already common knowledge that wife-swapping is not a serious accusation that can be made against travellers in the 21st century.

    It was a common claim in the 19th century as described by the accounts of Lady Gregory and others, see Racism and the Politics of Culture: Irish Travellers, by Jane Helleiner; pp. 44-45 .

    Lighten up!
    I’m not on the defensive, you made the claim about "widespread wife-swapping and failure to observe traditional marital conventions. "
    That is a very sweeping statement, no source given and I passed a perfectly rational comment on it. Your allegation comes not from widespread claims, but from a single story told – secondhand - to Lady Gregory by a woman who heard it from a woman in the Burren. The type of story known as “Dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi gur chuala si bean a rá.” Most of that stuff was promulgated by Corkery, who had an agenda and who for his own ends was trying to tie in bardic storytellers with the tinkers. Total BS. Of course tinkers told stories, but so did everyone in the days before radio and TV. Although rubbish, it was swallowed by her Ladyship, as was more of that type of guff by Synge in preparing his play about tinkers. The wife-swapping story never was a widespread one, although I’d be pleased to near other academic references about it, if you can find other real sources. And yes, I know about nomadic customs, Tibetan and Oceanic polyandry (which actually has an economic/family planning rationale), and about the19th century Aleut hospitality and/or religious ceremony involving temporary wife swapping. And about the significance of a halter around a wife's neck when she was sold at market in 18th c England.

    I suggest you look at the facts first and then arrive at a conclusion, rather than look at a conclusion and try to make the facts fit. If you have a problem take it private to me by PM


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭conorh91


    you made the claim about "widespread wife-swapping
    No I did not. Read the post more carefully please. I referred to such claims as being widespread, be those claims merely folklore or not.

    It was not one single account. The claims were gathered by Lady Gregory, Synge and the Journal of the Gypsy Law Society, which is why I said they appear widespread. These sources were described in the reference mentioned earlier.

    I have no intention of PMing you, nor arguing this very uncontroversial point. Please stop derailing the thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    We are discussing genealogy, ancestry/parentage, so your claim of Traveller wife-swapping, widespread or otherwise is not off topic, and I'm not derailing anything particularly when the facts are being totally misinterpreted by you in using the word ‘swapping’.

    Travellers have a very strong oral tradition because of high illiteracy rates and it has nothing to do with bards. They are very apt at genealogy and fully capable of rattling off how one “cousin” is related to another, up one line and down another but usually without knowing the niceties of how best to describe a third cousin once removed.

    It is not “wife swapping” in the sense that the words are used today, it is ‘wife exchange’ or ‘wife sale’ which is a 18th / 19th century form of divorce, in an era when it required about a thousand pounds and an Act of Parliament to obtain a divorce. Usually the exchange was by consent, the first husband ‘selling’ (i.e. obtaining damages) from the buyer (usually a pre-arranged one) who most frequently was the wife’s lover. The arrangement usually took place publically so all knew of the event and the rope halter I mentioned in an earlier post is believed to represent a noose, as hanging was the medieval punishment for adultery.

    Helleiner’s book is entitled Irish Travellers: Racism and the Politics of Culture. The two pages you referenced are about how the settled community showed disdain for the travellers in late 19th century Ireland. There are just a few references to wife “exchange” on page 45, but in the sense that I mentioned, something that happened very infrequently in any culture in Ireland (although somewhat more frequent in England) in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    The main contention/claim in the pages you quote is that the Travellers often did not use the Church for marriage (“often with but slight regard for the laws of the church”) and used “jumping the budget” (which is the Irish equivalent of the English “besom marriage”). Interestingly both have similar rules in form and function.

    If you look at the original source , i.e. Sampsom in the Gypsy Lore (not Law!) Society Journal of 1890 on page 204 in a footnote there is a list of a few dozens of the most frequent Traveller names by county. The surname Ward is not among them. End of, as far as I'm concerned.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Woulfe (1923) has the following:
    Mac an BHÁIRD—VII—MacAward, MacWard, Ward; 'son of the bard' (Irish 'bárd'); a very common surname; found in every county in Ireland, but especially in Donegal, Galway and Dublin. Three families of the name are known to history: (1) Mac an Bháird of Tirconnell, who were bards to the O'Donnells; (2) Mac an Bháird of Ui Maine, who were bards to the O'Kellys, and were seated at Muine Chasain and Ballymacward; and (3) Mac an Bháird of Oriel.

    Likewise:
    Mac DONNCHADHA, Mac DONNCHAIDH—IV—M'Donoghue, M'Donnoghie, M'Donaghy, M'Donchie, M'Denis, MacDonnagh, MacDonough, MacDonogh, MacDonagh, MacDona, MacDunphy, Donoghue, Donohoe, Donaghy, Donogh, Donagh, Dunphy, Duncan, Dennison, Denison, Dennis, &c.; 'son of Donnchadh' (brown warrior, or strong warrior, an ancient and very common Irish personal name, anglicised Donough, Denis.) There are at least three distinct families bearing this surname: (1) A branch of the MacCarthys, who were chiefs of Duhallow, in Co. Cork, and at one time very powerful. Their principal seat was at Kanturk. (2) A branch of the MacDermotts of Moylurg, who were chiefs of Tirerrill and Corran, in Co. Sligo, and resided at Ballymote. The Book of Ballymote was compiled under their patronage. an offshoot of this family settled in Co. Clare, and thence spread into Co. Limerick. (3) A Scottish clan in Perthshire, said to be a branch of the MacDonalds. This family now anglicised their name Duncan, and some of them call themselves Robertson. See Mac Dhonnchadha.
    Mac SUIBHNE—IV—MacSeveney, MacSwiney, MacSweeny, MacSweeney, MacSween, MacSwine, Swiney, Sweeney, &c.; 'son of Suibhne' (well-going); the name of a great military family, formerly famous throughout Ireland as captains of gallowglasses. They derive their name and descent, according to MacFirbis, from Suibhne, who was son of Donnshléibhe Ó Néill and lord of Knapdale in Argyle, about the beginning of the 13th century. The first of the name to come to Ireland was Murchadh, grandson of Suibhne, who is mentioned in the Annals at the year 1267. Early in the next century, the MacSweeneys effected a permanent settlement in Tirconnell, where they became captains of gallowglasses to O'Donnell. They branched out into three great septs, viz.: MacSweeny of Fanad who dwelt at Rathmullin Castle and had extensive possessions in the north-east of the barony of Kilmacrenan; MacSweeney of Baghnagh, now the barony of Banagh, in the west of Co. Donegal; and MacSweeney na dTuath, lord of Tuatha Toraighe, or the districts of Tory Island, sometimes incorrectly called MacSweeney of the Battleaxes. A branch of the MacSweeneys of Fanaid settled in Desmond as commanders of gallowglasses under the MacCarthys. They had several castles in the barony of Muskerry, and were celebrated for their hospitality. The Irish form of the surname is now sometimes Ó Suibhne, which see; in Scotland it is generally Mac Shuibhne (which see), but MacSween still survives as an anglicised form.
    Ó MONGÁIN—I—O Mongane, Mongan, Mangan, Mangin, Mongon, (Mannion, Manning), &c.; 'descendant of Mongán' (diminutive of mongach, hairy); the name of at least three distinct families, seated respectively in Cork, Mayo and Fermanagh. In the 16th century, it was not uncommon in Galway, Clare, Kerry, Tipperary, Kildare and Wexford. It is now generally anglicised Mangan, but Mongan, which is nearer the original, is still preserved in Mayo and other parts of Ireland. Ó Muingeáin (which see) is an attenuated form.
    Mac CNÁIMHÍN—IV—M'Cnavin, M'Knavin, MacNevin, Navin, Neavin, Nevin, Neven, Nivin, Nevins; 'son of Cnáimhín' (diminutive of cnámh, a bone); the name of an ancient family in Co. Galway, who were chiefs of a district in Ui Maine and seated at Crannag MacNevin, in the parish of Tynagh. The name is first mentioned in the Annals of the Four Masters at the year 1159. The chief in the time of Elizabeth was Hugh MacKnavin. He went out in rebellion, was taken and hanged on the 4th June, 1602, and his lands granted to the Earl of Clanrickard. Other members of the family possessed considerable property at the beginning of the 17th century. The celebrated Dr. MacNevin of the United Irishmen was the last supposed head of the family.
    Ó FÍODHABHRA—I—O Fiorie, O Fuery, O Fury, Fury, Furey, (?) Fleury; 'descendant of Fíodhabhra' (bushy-eyebrows, from fíodh, a wood, and fabhra, an eyebrow); also Ó Fíodhabhair, which see; the name of an old Westmeath family who, not improbably, are a branch of the O'Melaghlens. Two of them were bishops, or abbots, of Clonmacnoise in the latter part of the 12th century; and in the next century, Donat O Fiodhabhra, after filling the see of Clogher for nine years, was translated to the primatial see of Armagh. He died in England in 1237, as he was returning from Rome, "with great honour and spiritual glory from the Pope." Before the end of the 16th century the name had spread into Roscommon, Sligo and Cork. It is now most frequently met with in Co. Galway. In Munster the present form is Ó Fíodhabhair, anglicised Feore.

    In general travelers carry Gaelic Irish surnames, there are some exceptions such as Joyce and Barrett (both Cambro-Norman) though it is interesting how many traveller surnames are linked to west of Ireland. There is some probability that the nomadic lifestyle is continuation of semi-nomadic lifestyle prevalent in Gaelic Ireland (booleying etc.).

    As for "Blood of the travelers" that program was beyond vague, I should caution they never released any scientific papers about their finding, their implications though were that the male lineages were all fairly standard (Ward from Tuam was M222, it was implies Collins was L21+ same for Barrett -- 70% of all irishmen are L21+, M222 appears linked to Connachta/Uí Néill). The only other serious bit was that travellers as a population was most closely related to "Settled population" compared to any other population in Europe. However that there was seperation going on due to lack of gene flow between the two (eg. "Genetic drift"), given stigma that "respectable" irish society has had for travelling community it's no wonder.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I agree that the “Blood of the Travellers” was vague and would add that it probably was surpassed by Gardener Gavin’s one on the Basque/Irish connection!

    Here is the link to the list of names mentioned in the original source mentioned above – I was surprised that Ward was not among them, given the frequency of that name in the Travelling community today. Looking at the list in that footnote, English surnames for Travellers could, I suppose, be expected in Ulster (Banks, Watson) but does the inclusion of names like Costello and Joyce which are Norman in origin and Cawley / McAuliffe (Danish) not refute an ‘ancient’ heritage and point to a more ‘modern’ one for the Travelling community?

    Is the period of a few centuries (given the names) not too short for the genetic drift you mention to be noticeable? (I'm still a debutante on DNA) Also, in fairness, the stigma you mention works both ways.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 67 ✭✭johnohanlon


    They mostly seem to be called Maguire here in Ulster which was a Fermanagh based clan


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I agree that the “Blood of the Travellers” was vague and would add that it probably was surpassed by Gardener Gavin’s one on the Basque/Irish connection!

    Here is the link to the list of names mentioned in the original source mentioned above – I was surprised that Ward was not among them, given the frequency of that name in the Travelling community today. Looking at the list in that footnote, English surnames for Travellers could, I suppose, be expected in Ulster (Banks, Watson) but does the inclusion of names like Costello and Joyce which are Norman in origin and Cawley / McAuliffe (Danish) not refute an ‘ancient’ heritage and point to a more ‘modern’ one for the Travelling community?

    Is the period of a few centuries (given the names) not too short for the genetic drift you mention to be noticeable? (I'm still a debutante on DNA) Also, in fairness, the stigma you mention works both ways.

    I should note that Cawley/McAuliffe is about as Danish a surname as McShane is of jewish origin ;) (Shane -> Seán -> Jean -> Iohannes -> Ἰωάννης -> יוחנן )

    In this case the Norse proper name Olaf was borrowed into Irish and actually became quite popular name (similar to process where names are borrowed even today from other languages).

    From Woulfe (1923):
    Mac AMHLAOIBH—V—MacAuliffe, MacAuley, MacCauliffe, MacCauley, MacCawley, MacCowley, Cawley, Cowley, etc.; 'son of Amhlaoibh' (an Irish form of the Norse Olaf). There are three well-known families of this name: (1) Mac Amhlaoibh, anglicised MacAuliffe, of Co. Cork, a branch of the MacCarthys. The head of this family resided at Castle MacAuliffe, near Newmarket, and his territory comprised the district lying between Newmarket and the boundaries of the counties of Limerick and Kerry. (2) Mac Amhlaoibh of Fermanagh, a branch of the Maguires, whose territory comprised the barony of Clanawley. And (3) Mac Amhlaoibh, anglicised MacAulay, of Scotland. The chief seat of this family was at Ardincaple, in Dumbartonshire. A branch of the family settled in Co. Antrim, and many of the MacAulays of the north of Ireland are of this stock. To it belonged also the celebrated Lord Macaulay

    There's also a "native" name (eg. where rootname is not of norse origin) that gets conflated through angliscation:
    Mac AMHALGHADHA, Mac AMHALGHAIDH—IV—MacAulay, MacAuley, MacCauley, MacCowley, Cawley, etc.; 'son of Amhalghaidh' (an ancient Irish personal name). There are several distinct families of this name, the best known being that of Co. Westmeath, the head of which was formerly lord of Calraighe, comprising the whole of the parish of Ballyloughloe, in the west of that county. It is sometimes impossible to distinguish the anglicised forms of this surname from those of Mac Amhlaoibh, which see. See also Mag Amhalghadha, which is a variant.

    Costelloe by the way is the earliest known Gaelicised patryonomic adopted by a norman family (Earliest reference to 1193 -- so first generation born in ireland, probably had a Irish mother! ;) )

    The Joyce's were also heavily Gaelicised (just look at the Seoige sisters today!) given that they controlled Dúiche Sheoighe (Joyce Country) in County Galway, likewise for the Barretts in Mayo.

    My feeling thus is that the travellers as a distinct element of wider Irish society cannot have differeniated before
    • fixing of major surnames in Gaelic society (late 9th through 12th centuries)
    • arrival of Cambro-Norman's given that there are plenty of travellers bearing Cambro-Norman surnames

    Historians talk about increased mobility/nomadism in late medieval Ireland, for example Clan Muircheartaigh Uí Conchobhair (Clan Murtagh O'Connors) -- literally "the children of Muirchertach Muimhnech Ua Conchobair" (who died in 1210AD). Katherine Simms had the following to say about them:
    ... the earliest, most aristocratic and best documented example of increasing nomadism in the northern half of Ireland in the late middle ages. ... In spite of the fact that they were a very numerous branch of the O'Conor family, who supplied five kings to the throne of Connacht, they seem to have vanished away in the early fifteenth century, never to be heard of again.
    (A Lost Tribe - The Clan Murtagh O'Conors, Katherine Simms, pp. 1–22, Journal of the Galway Archaeological and Historical Society, volume 53, 2001)

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25535718?sid=21105185997991&uid=2&uid=3738232&uid=4

    My feeling is that one of key aspects in the increased nomadism in period is obviously the general increase in conflict, of course with the arrival of "surrender and regrant" in the 16th century you would have also seen multiple scions of a family been frozen out of inheritance (Eg. disappearance of the corporate clan structure of society) resulting in a drop down societal ladder. A process exacerbated by the huge turn over in landownership in the 17th century.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    They mostly seem to be called Maguire here in Ulster which was a Fermanagh based clan
    Mag UIDHIR—IV—Maguier, M'Guier, M'Gwire, M'Guiver, Maguire, MacGuire, MacGiver; 'son of Odhar' (pale, dun-coloured); the name of a great Fermanagh family, formerly one of the most powerful in Ulster. The name is first mentioned in the Annals at the year 956. Towards the end of the 13th century, the Maguires became chiefs of Fermanagh, a position which they held down to the reign of James I, when their country was included in the confiscation of Ulster. The family produced many valiant chiefs and learned ecclesiastics. The name is sometimes pronounced dialectically Mac Guibhir.

    With regards to Maguires following quote (which I've transcribed so excuse any spelling errors) is rather interesting: (From Gaelic and Gaelicized Ireland in the Middle Ages)
    One of the most important phenomena in a clan-based society is that of expansion from the top downwards. The seventeenth-century Irish scholar and genealogist Dualtagh Mac Firbisigh remarked that ‘as the sons and families of the rulers multiplied, so their subjects and followers were squeezed out and withered away’; and this phenomenon, the expansion of the ruling or dominant stocks at the expense of the remainder, is a normal feature in societies of this type. It has been observed of the modern Basotho of South Africa that ‘there is a constant displacement of commoners by royals [i.e. members of the royal clan] and of collateral royals by the direct descendants of the ruling prince’, and this could have been said, without adaptation, of any important Gaelic or Gaelicized lordship of late medieval Ireland.

    In Fermanagh, for example, the kingship of the Maguires began only with the accession of Donn Mór in 1282 and the ramification of the family – with the exception of one or two small and territorially unimportant septs – began with the sons of the same man. The spread of his descendants can be seen by the genealogical tract called Geinelaighe Fhearmanach; by 1607 they must have been in the possession of at least three-quarters of the total soil of Fermanagh, having displaced or reduced the clans which had previously held it. The rate at which an Irish clan could multiply itself must not be underestimated. Turlough an fhíona O’Donnell, lord of Tirconnell (d. 1423) had eighteen sons (by ten different women) and fifty-nine grandsons in the male line. Mulmora O’Reilly, the lord of East Brefny, who died in 1566, had at least fifty-eight O’Reilly grandsons. Philip Maguire, lord of Fermanagh (d. 1395) had twenty sons by eight mothers, and we know of at least fifty grandsons. Oliver Burke of Tirawley (two of whose sons became Lower Mac William although he himself had never held that position) left at least thirty-eight grandsons in the male line.

    Irish law drew no distinction in matters of inheritance between the legitimate and the illegitimate and permitted the affiliation of children by their mother’s declaration (see Chapter 4), and the general sexual permissiveness of medieval Irish society must have allowed a rate of multiplication approaching that which is permitted by the polygyny practised in, for instance, the clan societies of southern Africa already cited.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Is the period of a few centuries (given the names) not too short for the genetic drift you mention to be noticeable? (I'm still a debutante on DNA) Also, in fairness, the stigma you mention works both ways.

    Well without proper sample it's hard to say, as I mentioned nothing was ever published from that DNA testing, which is a pity, Dr. Jim Wilson who carried out is a smart guy, he's been involved in several of these shows.

    Without a peer reviewed scientific paper where a proper sample size (excluding known relatives) is compared to sample size of general irish population, with a third control population (lets say French or German), we'll never know. They did make the assertion of 1000 years for period of drift. However I do think if you had limited gene-flow for say 3-400 years that you would see certain amount of genetic drift going on. It would depend on size of the "founder effect" going on etc. As there is high level of endogamous relationships (eg. travellers don't marry out, or "settled population" don't marry in) certain traits that might only be carried by certain percentage in general population might end up with higher percentage among an endogamous community.

    I'd imagine for example the population of Pitcarn Island (though of course of mixed European/polynesian ancestry) have undergone certain amount of drift over last 200 years due to lack of inflow etc.

    Either way key thing is that without proper dataset published in peer review manner we'll never know.


  • Registered Users Posts: 556 ✭✭✭Coolnabacky1873


    Just saw Chris Paton tweeting about the Romany and Traveller Family History Society! They're going to be at WDYTYA?Live this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    When slagging a friend whose surname is Ward, about her name, she claimed the Wards in the eastern side of Ireland are of English origin, as the name is quite common in northern England.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    madmaggie wrote: »
    When slagging a friend whose surname is Ward, about her name, she claimed the Wards in the eastern side of Ireland are of English origin, as the name is quite common in northern England.

    I think there is an English surname Ward that derives from guard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    madmaggie wrote: »
    When slagging a friend whose surname is Ward, about her name, she claimed the Wards in the eastern side of Ireland are of English origin, as the name is quite common in northern England.

    Sure even if her surname is of Irish origin, her surname means she's technically descended from higher social class (within context of Gaelic Ireland) then you :P


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Ipso wrote: »
    I think there is an English surname Ward that derives from guard.

    Warden from two Old English words Weard Watch and dun hill.
    The Warden usually was a public official charged with the superintendence of a castle, a port or institution and was charged with the enforcement of specified laws or regulations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,827 ✭✭✭madmaggie


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Sure even if her surname is of Irish origin, her surname means she's technically descended from higher social class (within context of Gaelic Ireland) then you :P

    Ah lads, ye are taking all the fun out of it! She'll be getting notions now. :D


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