Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

nerd69 · 08-12-2021 2:42pm

It's small changes Regis sonnes time in bandon likely played a big part in guys like Coombes, Jack crowley, James french coming through bandon grammar

awec · 08-12-2021 2:47pm

Maybe you're looking at it the wrong way round?

What you (and everyone else other than Leinster) is producing now is the norm, and what you had then was a one off. A fluke. A lucky period of player development where a bunch of guys all came through at the same time.

Lost Ormond · 08-12-2021 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290179#Comment_118290179

Most certainly did play a part even if he was there for just 2 years and that was great but impossible to replicate as there was such luck in getting that to go ahead and a fee paying school nearby able to assist in paying for a coach like that isnt possible elsewhere

aloooof · 08-12-2021 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290208#Comment_118290208

Even if that is the case with regards Provinces producing players for Ireland, I still think it's reasonable that Limerick specifically could be doing better with regards producing players for Munster.

Jump_In_Jack · 08-12-2021 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290173#Comment_118290173

The limerick schools seem to be going well in the schools senior cup, I can't find any decent coverage of the groups online, but seems like those schools should be producing players. Are there any reasons that the players in those schools aren't coming through after school, or are those schools teams full of players from other counties?

Lost Ormond · 08-12-2021 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290350#Comment_118290350

Maybe because the schools arent going that well. Now crescent are good this year and while winning schools cups doesnt mean much about producing pros the Cork 3 and rockwell have simply been doing better

Glenstal would always have a lot from outside Limerick being an all boarding school and Munchins and Ard scoil have a decent number from Clare but no these schools teams are not full of players from other counties

Irish examiner usually has match reports from games through Three red kings, tom savage and Munster website has overview/match reports from some games as well.

Eod100 · 08-12-2021 3:41pm

Not very surprising news but some players who arrived back have since tested positive. Depending on timing of result could cause issues for Castres game https://twitter.com/rugby_ie/status/1468588678574268419?t=zEwbV3aNvyDMVXEFXIXU8Q&s=19

Quin_Dub · 08-12-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290700#Comment_118290700

As you say, not surprising. Hopefully they are doing well and not experiencing any major symptoms.

Between the 14 returning from SA and whatever number have tested positive since getting back to Ireland , they are probably looking at being down perhaps 15-20 players from the extended squad for the next few weeks.

nerd69 · 08-12-2021 3:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290251#Comment_118290251

It's a fair point and sonnes is a higher calibur than you'd see normally but it shows its doable.

Lost Ormond · 08-12-2021 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290816#Comment_118290816

Sonnes was also a friend/friend of a friend of someone from Bandon and had previous in taking sabbaticals from pro rugby to do something different. he took a break to spend a year surfing...

It isnt really doable though and it would be much better to look at issues that are more doable/have the ability to be changed

nerd69 · 08-12-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118290959#Comment_118290959

My point is not get a world class director of rugby in all areas (obviously) its that small changes can have a big impact. Sonnes as one man made a massive difference have a look at some of the cha ges he made and learn from them elsewhere.

Lost Ormond · 08-12-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291153#Comment_118291153

Very difficult to do considering all the differing factors in so many clubs/areas within province. But my main point is Munster are getting it right to under 16 even 18s its into adult rugby and 20s where the real issues arise. And looking at what Sonnes did in Bandon has little to do with the issues at those levels

mun1 · 08-12-2021 5:35pm

Most of the potential talent in limerick are going to one of the 4 rugby schools. In fact it is quite common for players to transfer schools into one of the rugby schools if asked.

there is a small group of 17s/18s north munster players (15)training every monday in garryowen with the new u16 intake . About 5 of these players come from the senior city clubs (YM, Garryowen , Shannon, old crescent, UL Bohs.

so let’s take it that their best players go to rugby schools (always exceptions of course)

most of these city clubs struggle to field at u16/u18 clubs due to schools taking players for their JCT/SCT squads

The real question is what are the schools doing with these 100 players

the 4 rugby schools (munchins, comp, ard scoil, castletroy) have 100 players in their JCT & SCT (I’m ignoring players in extended squad which would bring number to 150. )

small numbers of these 100 are appearing in Munster U18/U19 schools squads , never mind Ireland age grade squads .

comparison with CBC/PBC , they have about 80 between their JCT & SCT squads , yet contribute far more players to Munster U18/U19 squads pro rata

Why is that ? Are they better quality players to start with ? Better coached ?

Ok, my own opinion is the limerick schools players are poorly coached on how to play rugby, but well coached in how to win rugby matches , sometimes to the detriment of their skills and decision making, and is evidenced by the high dropout rate after schools rugby .

accept and address this problem and we might get some better output from these players.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291366#Comment_118291366

It is a combination of factors. Some of the Limerick schools rely far more on teachers to coach teams due to €€€ and that is great but doesnt always mean you have the best coaches. kids in CBC and PBC are possibly better coached but numbers are bigger in both and from experience of the players in these Limerick schools the skills work, decision making is far better now than it was 10 plus years ago.

I dont think the Limerick schools are poorly coached to play rugby. Especially now compared to again a decade ago when these issues of players coming from Limerick to pro level wasnt up for debate. Its as much the rise of players coming from Tipperary, Waterford, Cork beyond the city has lessened the need for so many players coming from Limerick and while more to come from Limerick would be great it isnt as bad as some make it out.

How wold you address this issue within schools rugby and clubs rugby in Limerick then. The drop out rate after age grade rugby is as bad in clubs as schools so the blame cant be attached solely to schools and the coaches in them.

09-12-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118291366#Comment_118291366

The problem might be that (odd as it sounds) too many schools play rugby, some to a decent level but none to the level of Michaels (or in truth, PBC or CBC). The talent is spread over 4 or 5 good schools but that leaves no one great school. Coaching is similarly spread.

Limerick would be better off, from a professional development perspective, imo, to have one truly elite school that dragged in all the talent and coached them to a high level. Conversely, that might be bad for the students, since it's better for lads to be playing sports.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 2:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295462#Comment_118295462

It really isnt and wouldnt be better for pro rugby or adult rugby/rugby in general as it would detrimentally affect other schools competitiveness and wouldnt necessarily see best for sport as a whole

Munster cant and shouldnt be trying to replicate what Leinster have. Its crazy as the resources each have are completely different. It has to approach things very differently. Both within the clubs youths grades and schools grade rugby.

Quin_Dub · 09-12-2021 2:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294743#Comment_118294743

The drop out rate is a massive problem across the board for Rugby.

If you look at all the players playing SCT or Club U18's this season the sad reality is that less than 25% of them will still be playing Rugby in 3 or 4 years time. And that's the case in all provinces , it's not a Limerick/Munster only problem.

Hard to know how to solve the problem , but certainly there should be a much greater focus on getting more U19/U20/U21 competitions going to try and keep guys involved in the game as they transition to Adulthood.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295571#Comment_118295571

There does need to be greater focus on 20s competitions as well as look at u23 competitions. Connacht have the 4 sides competing in Leinster at 20s - 3 galway and Buccs - but also have been getting other clubs to field 20s sides in blitz/participation days and Munster need to be doing similar. Yes there is the SSI colleges competitions and all the Munster colleges compete in that but more of these should be playing club competitions as well. Like its madness that there isnt a second division at 20s so clubs who wont/cant compete with the city senior clubs be able to play competitive rugby

Eod100 · 09-12-2021 2:36pm

Any rumours of potential team at this stage? Or too many variables to guess?

09-12-2021 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295545#Comment_118295545

I bet if the Collisons decided to pay for the entire St Michael's coaching set-up to relocate to their old school (Castletroy College), you'd start to see Castletroy get similar output to what Michael's have achieved. It's not genetics that have Michaels achieving what they have achieved in the last decade.

If they did, it would be good for the professional side in Munster but arguably terrible for the other aspects of the game (which tbf, I acknowledged earlier, more lads playing any sport is good imo).

Quin_Dub · 09-12-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295633#Comment_118295633

Think they have until lunchtime tomorrow to announce , I'd say they'll take every last minute before making the final call.

You'd assume though that the players will be told after training today if they are travelling or not.

phog · 09-12-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295633#Comment_118295633

Too many variables but one thing you can take for granted they'll be people out there doing calculations on who has Covid based on the team announcement.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 2:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295648#Comment_118295648

Im not sure you would. It isnt simply genetics but remember a decade ago Leinster had to run a open call for anyone age 17-23 who was 6'6 or taller..

The focus on schools alone isnt the answer and no i dont think if anyone did pay for a coaching set up to relocate it would have a similar output. Munster have to focus on a lot more than schools rugby. It has to look at changes at all levels be it clubs 20s grade, even the adult grades and how competitions are structured if there is to be improvements at higher levels

Quin_Dub · 09-12-2021 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295614#Comment_118295614

That's definitely a big issue at U20's

There are 40+ clubs fielding teams at U18 in Munster yet at most you'll have 8 or 10 fielding at U20 a year or two later.

Almost all Junior clubs don't bother with U20's as they quite reasonably feel that they can't compete with a UCC or a Young Munster etc. so they just focus on the few guys coming up that are ready/able to play Junior grade adult rugby immediately and the rest drift away.

If they were able to get close to replicating the U18 Clubs model at U20 with a Cup/Plate/Bowl model it might keep more clubs and players involved a little longer and increase the chances of them sticking with the game.

Eod100 · 09-12-2021 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295814#Comment_118295814

Ah yeah official announcement due then, just curious were there any educated guesses from reporters or anything

Quin_Dub · 09-12-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295932#Comment_118295932

I think the likely starting 15 is reasonably clear with decisions at 15 and the back-row definitely still up for discussion - It's the bench that's a complete unknown as I don't think anyone has any real idea of who if any, of the guys in quarantine are going to make the cut.

Jump_In_Jack · 09-12-2021 3:20pm

I think a lot has to do with players moving after leaving cert. Simply from 18 years old to 20 years old there could be mass migration from a rural area. In my experience my local club barely kept half the players, and picked up a lot of new players purely because they went to college nearby.

What can a rural club do if they have 30 players at 18's and just 15 players by 20's?

I'd imagine a regional team should kick in instead of club team after 18's.

Anyone not playing for a college or a well-stocked club, should be able to join a band of players .

One other thing is the rules could change a bit more to entice more players to play.

Amateur rugby should have a lot less hits in it or people simply won't want to play it.

Bring the tackle height down to below the hips, use the 50:22 and the 22:50 rules, and maybe look at uncontested scrums or maybe just one flanker for the tight side only and none for the loose side (as in 14 players instead of 15 to allow a bit more space). Maybe look at restricting the number of subs to ensure fitter players are rewarded above heavy players.

I gave up playing when I was injured more often than available to play, mostly due to injuries picked up from heavy tackle collisions.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118295883#Comment_118295883

Yep. Used to be case the tipp clubs would play the county cup, o connor cup, at end of season even if sides didnt field in league through the season but even that doesnt happen as much any more.

Yeah a few rounds of ranking games and then a few divisions of teams around same level. North Munster u20s league at start of season has often had Nenagh, Ennis occasionally compete and do ok but these sides wouldnt have player depth necessarily to compete in division 1 with all the city clubs and another league even if it only had a game a month(of blitz style games with few clubs in 1 location if necessary) would be better than current set up

RichieRich_89 · 09-12-2021 4:01pm

Someone posted (I think it was) Thornley's possible XV up on planet rugby forum. Okeke at 8, some guy called John Forde at blindside, Eoin O'Connor alongside Beirne in the second row, Patrick Campbell at 15, and Declan Moore ahead of Scott Buckley at hooker.

Lost Ormond · 09-12-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118296009#Comment_118296009

It isnt about players moving after school/LC. Its far more about players quitting/finishing playing entirely. If it was about players moving then the city clubs would have far more players and some clubs even able to field 2 20s sides.. but that isnt the case. I played for 2 clubs at 20s as in my 3rd/4th season playing 20s/21s we just lost a lot of players. The 50:22 is in every grade and has been kept. you wouldnt need to change anything about that. restricting number of subs would put off people not get more people interested. the change to 12 subs and any rotation within that 12 has made games far better than the old way.

Munster Team Talk Thread - Snymans are(n't) Forever

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