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General Rugby Discussion II

12467…293

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  • #92
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,743 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    The IRFU should shut up with their "protecting Irish rugby" stuff while actively seeking project player signings, they look like idiots.

    Not if you look at it objectively. They sign projects in places where they are needed in the province and do not block recognised Irish talent coming through. Provinces are not told to buy project players in positions they don't need them.

    That these players are bolstering weaker positions in the provinces and weaker positions in the national squad then surely this is a better thing or Irish rugby overall, not a worse thing? I can see no logical explanation why it would be worse.

    You're acting as though these 2 things are mutually exclusive; protecting Irish rugby and signing project players. They aren't. At all.


  • #93
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    I find this argument really odd from you as have said in the past you couldn't care less if Ulster were lining up with 23 niqs. And if you had your way the talent pool would be considerably reduced.


  • #94
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,743 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    Says the guy who wants Ulster to be able to sign as much foreign talent as it needs and can afford. Who has no issue with the idea of Ulster fielding 15 foreign born players if it gets them trophies.

    A world where this is allowed and where projects aren't is almost certainly impossible as these two are almost certainly mutually exclusive. There's a very real conflict here in your provincial and national position.


  • #95
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,169 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    Then why are you specifically bringing up Ireland as being the worst and asking people to name other unions who are worse?!

    You can't ask something and when you're proven wrong claim that it's erroneous and you don't care.

    And I don't understand how you're claiming "it's nobody elses fault" when it's a system available to everyone that is created by World Rugby and exposed by pretty much every union.

    I'd much rather see Bundee Aki in green than I would Michael Bent or Tom Cout, frankly.


  • #96
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    No offence but this really just comes across like you hate the IRFU and no rationalisation will come into it.

    The IRFU protect the game in Ireland by ensuring we have a successful national team first and foremost. It's where the vast majority of the cash comes from. Until it's clear that attendances are dropping then the IRFU would be wrong to do something about it and as attendances have been steadily going the other way it would suggest that they are going about this the right way.

    I still think we're probably at a tipping point in terms of public perception but we're also probably just reaching the point now where we've enough players coming through that future projects won't be as essential.

    The main reason I support rugby / Leinster is because it's a team of my peers and if this goes away so does my interest, but I'm not feeling anything like the same vitriol towards the IRFU over what is a fairly minor complimentary element to the national team.


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  • #97
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Not if you look at it objectively. They sign projects in places where they are needed in the province and do not block recognised Irish talent coming through. Provinces are not told to buy project players in positions they don't need them.

    That these players are bolstering weaker positions in the provinces and weaker positions in the national squad then surely this is a better thing or Irish rugby overall, not a worse thing? I can see no logical explanation why it would be worse.

    You're acting as though these 2 things are mutually exclusive; protecting Irish rugby and signing project players. They aren't. At all.

    1. Provinces are ALWAYS told to favour signing project players. If it is a choice between a project or a NIQ you know which one is going to win out in almost every situation.

    2. Aki is not bolstering a weak position. There are other Irish centres to pick from. they may not all be as good as Aki but at least they are not projects. Look at Stander, look at the number of Irish back rows Leinster have. Ruddock > Stander. Conan > Stander. Look at Payne too. How anyone can say the projects aren't replacing Irish talent is beyond me.

    They are mututally exclusive. You cannot claim to be protecting Irish rugby while importing non-Irish players to play for Ireland. If you think that's ok, we should maybe rename the team. "An Ireland 23", or "Ireland*", or maybe "Ireland and Friends". I'm open to suggestions.


  • #98
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Says the guy who wants Ulster to be able to sign as much foreign talent as it needs and can afford. Who has no issue with the idea of Ulster fielding 15 foreign born players if it gets them trophies.

    A world where this is allowed and where projects aren't is almost certainly impossible as these two are almost certainly mutually exclusive. There's a very real conflict here in your provincial and national position.

    Well that's because Ulster are a club team, and Ireland are not. :confused:

    I have always wanted a more pragmatic approach at Ulster. 15 foreigners is a bit of an exaggeration, but I'd quite happily replace all projects with real NIQs.

    Ireland have enough good players to field a fully Irish 23 for every game. We do not need projects.


  • #99
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Buer wrote: »
    Then why are you specifically bringing up Ireland as being the worst and asking people to name other unions who are worse?!

    You can't ask something and when you're proven wrong claim that it's erroneous and you don't care.

    And I don't understand how you're claiming "it's nobody elses fault" when it's a system available to everyone that is created by World Rugby and exposed by pretty much every union.

    I'd much rather see Bundee Aki in green than I would Michael Bent or Tom Cout, frankly.

    Are World Rugby forcing Ireland to pick non-Irish players?


  • #100
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Venjur wrote: »
    No offence but this really just comes across like you hate the IRFU and no rationalisation will come into it.

    The IRFU protect the game in Ireland by ensuring we have a successful national team first and foremost. It's where the vast majority of the cash comes from. Until it's clear that attendances are dropping then the IRFU would be wrong to do something about it and as attendances have been steadily going the other way it would suggest that they are going about this the right way.

    I still think we're probably at a tipping point in terms of public perception but we're also probably just reaching the point now where we've enough players coming through that future projects won't be as essential.

    The main reason I support rugby / Leinster is because it's a team of my peers and if this goes away so does my interest, but I'm not feeling anything like the same vitriol towards the IRFU over what is a fairly minor complimentary element to the national team.

    I hate how the IRFU exploit the project player system. This is nothing new, I've made this point plenty of times in the past.


  • #101
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    awec wrote: »
    I have always hated this project player nonsense. At the start it was something you could live with as there were only 1 or 2, but since the IRFU have become obsessed with increasing the national team player numbers by actively encouraging provinces to sign non-capped internationals that they can convert it has become much harder to swallow. I do not want Aki playing for Ireland. Enough is enough.
    At the start it was to fill gaps. We brought in Strauss and Bent (for example) because we were short of talent in those positions. In addition, it became increasingly clear that the provinces couldn't afford to 'buy in' talent to fill similar gaps because of the competition from France and England. So the carrot of becoming eligible for Ireland helped bridge that financial gap.

    The provinces are still able to recruit using that approach, but the five year rule will now make it harder. We may bemoan the attitude, but it's the provinces that benefit the most from this. We may have a longish list of eligible players, but many of them will never see the inside of a green shirt unless it's a one off 'lock them in' cap or an injury crisis of epic proportions.

    I do feel for home grown players who are sidelined because there's a better* project player available.

    *This may be marginal which can only hurt worse.


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  • #102
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,169 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    awec wrote: »
    Are World Rugby forcing Ireland to pick non-Irish players?

    This is just head in sand stuff. No, they're not forcing them to pick non-Irish players. They're facilitating it though. Maybe World Rugby should pull a Brian Ashton? We don't know whose decision it was to play those project players but it wasn't ours!

    The IRFU would be idiots if they didn't avail of the project system when their main competitors and rivals are doing just that. They would be idiots if they passed on someone like Jared Payne. They would be idiots if they allowed Irish teams to perform less well in a professional environment despite the presence of a very straightforward and simple system to allow them to benefit the teams and thereby grow the game through the success and financial rewards of those benefits.

    Your inability/refusal to see this is baffling. If they shut down the project player system then that's fine. It's gone for everyone. But to take some sort of misguided moral high ground on the topic to the detriment of the Irish team is bizarre when all and sundry will just carry on finding suitable candidates and strenghtening their teams.


  • #103
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    The whole thing about the project player system is way overblown anyway. You're taking a punt that a young guy or mid-range journeyman from SA/NZ will, three years from now be an international quality player. It's no surprise that most of them never get near that level, instead they just turn out to be what the provinces have always had: squad players.

    Let's look at who has qualified/might qualify apart from Strauss/Stander/Payne:

    LH: Schalk van der Merwe - who knows?
    Hooker: Rhys Marshall - pretty ropey so far; Tom McCartney - now eligible, not called up
    TH: Herbst - eligible, might be useful for a few caps; Ah You - will never play again
    Lock: Roux - has three caps, will be lucky to make it five; Kleyn; a big lump, might come good
    Back row: Heenan - eligible since 2016, never called up; Cloete - who knows?; Diack - two caps, will never play again
    SH: Gibson-Park - hard to see him getting capped
    OH: Bleyendaal; initial enthusiasm has waned, needs to improve dramatically
    Centre: Aki; we'll find out soon enough
    Back three: Ludik - now eligible, not called up; James Lowe - saviour of Irish rugby, obvs.

    I'm sure I'm leaving someone out, but that's a fair number of players and only Aki and possibly Lowe are worth getting excited about. Most of them don't even make their provincial first XV, never mind the Ireland squad. And the above list doesn't include guys who've come and gone.

    I think the IRFU and the provinces look for guys who can improve the provinces initially and if they turn out to be good enough, then capping them is a bonus. No one really thought Strauss was going to be an international after his first season, Stander likewise. Payne is probably the only guy who was anointed from day one.


  • #104
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Former Former wrote: »
    The whole thing about the project player system is way overblown anyway. You're taking a punt that a young guy or mid-range journeyman from SA/NZ will, three years from now be an international quality player. It's no surprise that most of them never get near that level, instead they just turn out to be what the provinces have always had: squad players.

    Let's look at who has qualified/might qualify apart from Strauss/Stander/Payne:

    LH: Schalk van der Merwe - who knows?
    Hooker: Rhys Marshall - pretty ropey so far; Tom McCartney - now eligible, not called up
    TH: Herbst - eligible, might be useful for a few caps; Ah You - will never play again
    Lock: Roux - has three caps, will be lucky to make it five; Kleyn; a big lump, might come good
    Back row: Heenan - eligible since 2016, never called up; Cloete - who knows?; Diack - two caps, will never play again
    SH: Gibson-Park - hard to see him getting capped
    OH: Bleyendaal; initial enthusiasm has waned, needs to improve dramatically
    Centre: Aki; we'll find out soon enough
    Back three: Ludik - now eligible, not called up; James Lowe - saviour of Irish rugby, obvs.
    The ones in bold print are playing for Ulster. That's six in total (unless I've missed one or two).

    That's the point I made above. The provinces benefit the most from the carrot of international rugby.


  • #105
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,071 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Joy neville is to ref bordeaux v enisei next month. First female ref for euro comp game

    Some 3 or 4 months for her.


  • #106
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,743 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    awec wrote: »
    Ireland have enough good players to field a fully Irish 23 for every game. We do not need projects.

    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.


  • #107
    MarinersBlues
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭MarinersBlues


    I take exception to the fact you have TOH as third choice full-back.
    He shouldn't be behind Kearney.


  • #108
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?


  • #109
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.
    So why are we continuing to sign more project players?


  • #110
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?

    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174
    awec wrote: »
    I'd still have Payne ahead of Kearney. I think he's a better player personally.

    He hasn't played 13 much and I don't really see him doing so, unless orders come from Ireland that we have to play him as a centre?


  • #111
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Let's take a look at Ireland current depth chart, shall we, to 3 places deep.

    Position|Players|Num Projects
    LH:|Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne|0
    HK:|Best, Scannell, Tracy|0
    TH:|Furlong, Ryan, Porter|0
    LK:|Toner, Henderson, Ryan, Dillane, Treadwell, Roux|1
    BS:|POM, Stander, Ruddock|1
    OS:|SOB, VDF, Leavy|0
    N8:|Heaslip, Conan, Murphy|0
    |
    SH:|Murray, Marmion, McGrath|0
    OH:|Sexton, Carbery, Keatley|0
    IC:|Henshaw, McCloskey, Scannell|0
    OC:|Ringrose, Payne, Aki|2
    WG:|Earls, Stockdale, D Kearney, Byrne, Sweetnam, B Daly|0
    FB:|R Kearney, Conway, TOH|0


    So from a total of 45 players we're looking at 4 projects (2 of the top 30). And only 1 of those is first choice. If you look at where they are we have 1 way down the depth chart at lock, 1 in an area of strength that is the back row and 2 at outside centre. I think its fair to say we are very short on quality outside centres in Ireland at the moment so having 2 guys backing up a young Irish guy there is probably not the worst thing in the world.

    Arguably Stander is the only case of a project player that people could realistically object to. He's in a position of strength for Ireland and is "blocking" young Irish players coming through. I don't think the same could be said for the others though. It really isn't what you are making it out to be at all.

    I'd say if you went as far as 4 deep the numbers wouldn't jump dramatically


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  • #112
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Was a lot of teeth nashing by some when Kearney was being picked ahead of Payne at fullback. Does Payne not count as a project?

    Payne is 100% a project the same as Aki, the horse has bolted on that one though. I don't see Payne getting many more caps thankfully for a variety of reasons.

    People seem to think that projects are grand because most of them will only get a few caps. Complete nonsense in my opinion. 1 cap is too many, if we don't need these players why are we persisting with this bollocks of a system?

    Give me a half-decent Irish player over a good project any day. I'd rather see Rory Scannell play for Ireland than Aki. I'd rather see Luke Marshall than Aki and Marshall has tits for hands. There is no need for Stander either. There is no need for Payne (admittedly there is a valid argument that there once was). JGP is a project, I'm sure he'll be given some token cap at some point which is another bad joke. Bleyendaal will be brought in eventually too for a few token caps.

    Fair enough, some people support project players being brought in to make us a better team. The same people cannot turn around and say it's for the betterment of Irish rugby to select foreign players ahead of Irish ones. At least call it what it really is, exploitive opportunism where the spirit of what the national team is supposed to be is diluted in exchange for a few decent players.

    I remember there was an Ireland player who mentioned it was annoying to see these project players drop in to squads ahead of guys who'd gone through the system from a young age (might have been Luke Fitz, I can't remember). Hard to argue with that.


  • #113
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    So why are we continuing to sign more project players?

    Because the provinces need players and there's a chance they'll go on to become an Irish international.

    Probably the only one we signed this year who looks to potentially reach that standard is Lowe. By the time he's there of course some of the current dudes will be gone and he'll likely be the last before the 5 year rulers start to filter in.

    There's going to be a gap sometimes around 2020 and 2023 where guys aren't going to be qualifying as often while the new rule starts to apply, so by the time the first 5 year guy comes in there'll probably be very few left. Payne will be 38, Stander and Aki will be 33, Lowe will be 31.


  • #114
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Venjur wrote: »
    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174

    Yea? And? :confused:

    As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

    I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.


  • #115
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    At least call it what it really is, exploitive opportunism where the spirit of what the national team is supposed to be is diluted in exchange for a few decent players.

    No.

    The spirit of what you think the national team is supposed to be is diluted. You're speaking for yourself there.


  • #116
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Because the provinces need players and there's a chance they'll go on to become an Irish international.

    Probably the only one we signed this year who looks to potentially reach that standard is Lowe. By the time he's there of course some of the current dudes will be gone and he'll likely be the last before the 5 year rulers start to filter in.

    There's going to be a gap sometimes around 2020 and 2023 where guys aren't going to be qualifying as often while the new rule starts to apply, so by the time the first 5 year guy comes in there'll probably be very few left. Payne will be 38, Stander and Aki will be 33, Lowe will be 31.

    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".


  • #117
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    No.

    The spirit of what you think the national team is supposed to be is diluted. You're speaking for yourself there.

    Well the Ireland national team is the team of Irish players. Are you saying it's something else?


  • #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Venjur wrote: »
    Here is a direct quote from awec himself in 2013:

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056839263&page=174
    awec wrote: »
    Yea? And? :confused:

    As I said earlier, it was much easier to accept back then when it was a one-off. The floodgates have opened, it has become ridiculous.

    I would be happy enough if Payne never got capped for Ireland again.
    awec wrote: »
    I don't give a stuff about other unions.

    I will 100% blame the IRFU for watering down the Irish national team with foreign imports. It's nobody elses fault but theirs.

    "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    So you hate the IRFU for doing it bar that time when you wanted them to do it?


  • #119
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    He's going to be playing for Leinster for 3 years first. And he'll be contributing to Irish rugby that entire time. And it's a position of weakness that Leinster have filled by signing one of the more exciting wingers in Super Rugby. I don't see the problem. I'd have much more of a problem capping someone like JGP (assuming he doesn't improve) where it's a bit of a journeyman guy being capped. Not sure how I'd feel about someone like Ludik who would be in the middle of those two.
    awec wrote: »
    Well the Ireland national team is the team of Irish players. Are you saying it's something else?

    For me it's a team that represents Irish rugby. And I've grown up in Irish rugby and I've been coached and played with guys from all over the world who have their roots down and are totally dedicated to their clubs/provinces.


  • #120
    connemara man
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 6,773 Mod ✭✭✭✭connemara man


    awec wrote: »
    Oh great, James Lowe playing for Ireland. Can't wait to see it. Looking forward to seeing what young Irish player misses out on caps so that this lad can be dropped in instead.

    I'll guess we just have to accept this as "Protecting Irish Rugby".

    He'll only play for Irish rugby if there are no better Irish wingers. You want to put players in a bubble fine but if you're someone with international aspirations you need to be better or as good as the players you'll be coming up against and if you aren't better than a project should you be playing internationally anyway?


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  • #121
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,275 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    So if the Aki and Henshaw double team works well like it did for Connacht, are people on here really saying they'd be happy enough to watch that as Ireland's centre duo while wee Garry perfects his tackle bag holding technique after he comes back from injury?

    Good one lads.


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