How would it work in real life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-10-2019 11:46am

First off: reusing and repairing stuff. If your devices break, there'll be a push on to just replace the part that needs fixing. Also, upgrading will become less likely. Practically first.

Secondly: enviromentally unfriendly actions such as eating meat and flying will be cut down up on and become more and more expensive. Ireland, being an island, will be hit by this more than the continent.

Ultimately, it'll be more lifestyle changes than sacrifices that make the difference. You can still go to the Premier league game in Liverpool or Manchester, but you might have to take the Ferry. You'll still be able to eat meat, but maybe once or twice a week instead of every day. You'll still be able to email from the car, but it'll be on a four-year-old mobile rather than the latest model.

Nothing you can't handle, a lot of us already do this anyway

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 11:46am

biko wrote: »

We need to stop the emerging middle classes in India, China and Africa.
It's not sustainable for them to consume in that way.

Exactly, they should be working for us!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-10-2019 11:49am

Wibbs wrote: »

And it's a stupid theory as it is completely unprovable. Generally only believed by the daft like libertarians or the naive, or dumb.

Dunno. The disproportion would certainly be back, but not necessarily in the same hands.

The wealth imbalance is more down the greed and insecurity than anything else, and if those ideals survive, the system will survive.

It's often said that the past is obdurate, will so is the future.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-10-2019 11:49am

Anyone remember those little repair shops many years ago, there was one near me and you could drop anything in to be fixed from hoovers to radios, hairdryers etc.

I haven't seen one in a long time as I suspect with disposable consumerism it's nearly as cheap to just replace than repair.

It's such a pity, but obviously as electronics cheapened work for those places dried up.

Was glad to recently discover a lawnmower repair business at a local warehouse and he is out the door with business.

The low cost of goods and apparent increase in wealth has not been kind to the planet.

Wibbs · 17-10-2019 11:52am

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Dunno. The disproportion would certainly be back, but not necessarily in the same hands.

Oh I agree. The disproportion would likely come back, but almost certainly not in the same hands. Generational wealth would be gone for a start as those who built it up in the first place would be long dead.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-10-2019 11:54am

mariaalice wrote: »

We all can't continue to consume in the same way as we have in a planet with finite resources.

Technological advances can help us consume less. Just look at all the things digital devices like smartphones, tablets, and e-readers have replaced or are reducing physical consumption of --

Alarm clocks
Books
Magazines
Newspapers
TVs
Paper bills
Letters and cards
Landlines and answering machines
Point and shoot cameras
Camcorders
Calculators
Music players & stereo systems
Cassette tapes, LPs, and CDs
Maps and atlases
Paper calendars & planners
TVs, VCRs, video tapes

The list goes on.

So how would our new life look, a life where we consume less ( consume less of what? ) do art ( even for those who do not have the talent or interest in art ) promote communities ( how exactly? and what does that mean? )

I don't know that art requires lots consumption — indeed, some artists specialize in turning "found" objects into art. Similarly, we can promote communities through numerous activities that don't require lots of consumption.

blinding · 17-10-2019 11:57am

biko wrote: »

We need to stop the emerging middle classes in India, China and Africa.
It's not sustainable for them to consume in that way.

So says the Western Middle and Upper Class:eek::D:eek:

Thelonious Monk · 17-10-2019 11:57am

If you measure your standard of living by happiness and GDP and how much crap you buy, then we need to lower that standard of living yes. The powers that be push it upon us that mega consumerism is the only way to go. We could all work way less, have more free time, cleaner air, happier families, if we slowed the economy down, shared more services equally, and brought about a new philosophy towards life.
Any mention of this though and you're called a communist and a woke tree hugging trustafarian. Most people just want everyone to own a car each and burn through the earth's resources like there's no tomorrow and everything is infinite. So we're f*cked.

stoneill · 17-10-2019 11:58am

Each country has to reduce population by 50%.
I know which group I'd start with.

Thelonious Monk · 17-10-2019 12:03pm

stoneill wrote: »

Each country has to reduce population by 50%.
I know which group I'd start with.

Qatarians!

https://www.livescience.com/20308-greedy-nations-top-resource-users-earth.html

We are no 10 on that list, that's not good.

LirW · 17-10-2019 12:03pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

First off: reusing and repairing stuff. If your devices break, there'll be a push on to just replace the part that needs fixing. Also, upgrading will become less likely. Practically first.

Secondly: enviromentally unfriendly actions such as eating meat and flying will be cut down up on and become more and more expensive. Ireland, being an island, will be hit by this more than the continent.

Ultimately, it'll be more lifestyle changes than sacrifices that make the difference. You can still go to the Premier league game in Liverpool or Manchester, but you might have to take the Ferry. You'll still be able to eat meat, but maybe once or twice a week instead of every day. You'll still be able to email from the car, but it'll be on a four-year-old mobile rather than the latest model.

Nothing you can't handle, a lot of us already do this anyway

I read an interesting article about the conundrum with train prices v flight prices in Europe and it is an interesting one. We all have a certain budget for things and while many would prefer to take night trains to get to their destinations the difference on price is often hundreds of euros and booking a train trip through several countries is often incredibly difficult if not virtually impossible.

And it's similar when it comes to repairing electronics. Does it even pay off if repairing it is more expensive than replacing it? What is the likelihood of high quality parts being fitted? Will said part still work in 6 months time if I make a financially viable decision to replace it with a more budget part in order to keep the cost down for myself?
Smartphones are such a bad example because they're notoriously difficult to repair in a cost effective way.

The truth is that the insust collectively decided to lower product quality to flip more and by this being accepted by lawmakers we as consumers had the choice taken away from us by choosing from sh*tty option A) or sh*tty

that don't address the real elephant in the room.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-10-2019 12:17pm

LirW wrote: »

Smartphones are such a bad example because they're notoriously difficult to repair in a cost effective way.

The problem with smartphones is that manufacturers typically release a "must-have" upgrade every year. The lemmings are then driven bananas by the hype and believe that life is not worth living until get their hands on the newest model.

Then there's the forced upgrade. My wife had an iPhone 6, which was around 4 years old. It had a few scratches and marks, but was working fine, and she saw no reason to replace it until she realized that the new iOS 13 would not be supported on her phone. So she had to choose between keeping the older device and running and older (and potentially less secure) version of the OS. So she did upgrade, but if the OS had been supported for longer, she would have been happy to keep her old phone.

Thelonious Monk · 17-10-2019 12:23pm

Reyansh Scruffy Ufo wrote: »

The problem with smartphones is that manufacturers typically release a "must-have" upgrade every year. The lemmings are then driven bananas by the hype and believe that life is not worth living until get their hands on the newest model.

Then there's the forced upgrade. My wife had an iPhone 6, which was around 4 years old. It had a few scratches and marks, but was working fine, and she saw no reason to replace it until she realized that the new iOS 13 would not be supported on her phone. So she had to choose between keeping the older device and running and older (and potentially less secure) version of the OS. So she did upgrade, but if the OS had been supported for longer, she would have been happy to keep her old phone.

Yes iPhones are bastards in that the app store doesn't work with the iOS once it gets to a certain age so eventually you have to upgrade. I've had my iPhone 5 that I got from previous job for about 4 years now and it's grand. I never understand these idiots that queue up for new ones or spend loads of money on phones, they all do the same thing.

LirW · 17-10-2019 12:30pm

Reyansh Scruffy Ufo wrote: »

The problem with smartphones is that manufacturers typically release a "must-have" upgrade every year. The lemmings are then driven bananas by the hype and believe that life is not worth living until get their hands on the newest model.

Then there's the forced upgrade. My wife had an iPhone 6, which was around 4 years old. It had a few scratches and marks, but was working fine, and she saw no reason to replace it until she realized that the new iOS 13 would not be supported on her phone. So she had to choose between keeping the older device and running and older (and potentially less secure) version of the OS. So she did upgrade, but if the OS had been supported for longer, she would have been happy to keep her old phone.

I usually just buy a 200 euro Motorola but same problem, 3-4 years down the line the hardware cannot keep up with the new system updates anymore.
In fairness, the last one I ruined myself after 3 years, still going strong and me being clumsy as always dropped it into the toilet. Irreparable water damage. Just days after saying how happy I am with the phone and it's still working so well.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-10-2019 12:34pm

Read a book on zero waste and one thing that stood out to me was, "before you buy anything just take a moment to think about the products end of life" be that a car or a bar of chocolate, it has certainly put me off some purchases.

Personally I don't buy into the consumerism, the problem is we have multiple younger generations who are enraptured by it and almost live their lives by it.

Upgrading phones, appliances, cars etc just to have a new shiny model. We are bombarded by marketing from the moment we wake up.

I like a frugal existence and always try to buy preloved from clothes to furniture and pass on items to others when possible.

I recycle and compost anything that can and analysed the rubbish bin weekly to get a good idea about what is going to landfill so I can change habits.

I just think there's too much money involved for the big industries to really shift how things are done. They are in a position to really make a difference but I fear that short term goal of profit now will always win.

ToddyDoody · 17-10-2019 12:40pm

Juniper Uneven Extinguisher wrote: »

Personally, I don't buy into the consumerism

!

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-10-2019 12:41pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes iPhones are bastards in that the app store doesn't work with the iOS once it gets to a certain age so eventually you have to upgrade. I've had my iPhone 5 that I got from previous job for about 4 years now and it's grand. I never understand these idiots that queue up for new ones or spend loads of money on phones, they all do the same thing.

I bought an old refurbished iPhone and had this problem.

There is a bit of a workaround for this for apps that are only supported by a more recent iOS. I installed an old version of the apple app store on to my Windows laptop and logged in with my apple ID there.

Once I install the apps there it let's me get them on the old iPhone. Bit of a pain but a workaround nonetheless.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-10-2019 12:41pm

ToddyDoody wrote: »

!

Pun intended!!

mariaalice · 17-10-2019 12:42pm

Reyansh Scruffy Ufo wrote: »

Technological advances can help us consume less. Just look at all the things digital devices like smartphones, tablets, and e-readers have replaced or are reducing physical consumption of --

Alarm clocks
Books
Magazines
Newspapers
TVs
Paper bills
Letters and cards
Landlines and answering machines
Point and shoot cameras
Camcorders
Calculators
Music players & stereo systems
Cassette tapes, LPs, and CDs
Maps and atlases
Paper calendars & planners
TVs, VCRs, video tapes

The list goes on.

I don't know that art requires lots consumption — indeed, some artists specialize in turning "found" objects into art. Similarly, we can promote communities through numerous activities that don't require lots of consumption.

It dose no work like that its not so simple, its a bit like universal basic income which in theory would free people to do creative authentic work, projects, and art, for some maybe but for a not insignificant minority they dont have the skill talent or ability to live like that they would end up consuming a lot of drugs and fighting with their family.

Yes its has become a bit ludicrous to see a petrol-guzzling car with a badge as a status symbol the idea of status symbols has not gone away its just moved on to something else consumerism has not gone away.

Also it's ludicrous to think that advances in medicine which cost billions in research don't use a huge amoutn of the earth resources, so somehow we are going to able to give someone dialysis which costs a couple of hundred thousand a year and uber-expensive cancer drugs or we going to stop that becaue of home much of the earth resources its uses?.

The changes that are needed would collapse society as we know it, it would need a fundamental change in human nature that I can see happening.

I could be wrong of course.

,

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-10-2019 12:51pm

stoneill wrote: »

Each country has to reduce population by 50%.
I know which group I'd start with.

I'd still vote for Thanos ahead of you, to be honest!

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 17-10-2019 12:57pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Also it's ludicrous to think that advances in medicine which cost billions in research don't use a huge amoutn of the earth resources, so somehow we are going to able to give someone dialysis which costs a couple of hundred thousand a year and uber-expensive cancer drugs or we going to stop that becaue of home much of the earth resources its uses?

There doesn't need to be a conflict. We spend billions treating preventable diseases. That could be saved through simple steps like eating healthful food and exercising more. If we all ate more responsibly and exercised regularly (including walking or cycling to work) we could live more environmentally sustainable lives while also reducing the cost of medical care.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 17-10-2019 12:57pm

LirW wrote: »

I read an interesting article about the conundrum with train prices v flight prices in Europe and it is an interesting one. We all have a certain budget for things and while many would prefer to take night trains to get to their destinations the difference on price is often hundreds of euros and booking a train trip through several countries is often incredibly difficult if not virtually impossible.

And it's similar when it comes to repairing electronics. Does it even pay off if repairing it is more expensive than replacing it? What is the likelihood of high quality parts being fitted? Will said part still work in 6 months time if I make a financially viable decision to replace it with a more budget part in order to keep the cost down for myself?
Smartphones are such a bad example because they're notoriously difficult to repair in a cost effective way.

The truth is that the insust collectively decided to lower product quality to flip more and by this being accepted by lawmakers we as consumers had the choice taken away from us by choosing from sh*tty option A) or sh*tty that don't address the real elephant in the room.

Valid problems and all will have to be addrerssed in time.

Regarding the travel - I'm talking more for short distances. I'm travelling from Berlin to Amsterdam middle of next month and Deutche Bahn want 75 euro, whereas Easyjet want 88. And that's before I add the suitcase (contains paint, not an option as hand luggage). Same for other destinations in the same distance, such as Copenhagen, Prague or Munich.

Short term flights will be one of the first things to go: if it's less than 400-500 odd miles, there'll be a lot of empahsis on land-based travel. It's just a case of being a bit more organised and a bit less demanding. (As I said, this will be trickier for Ireland, being an island)

I see sheep · 17-10-2019 1:00pm

stoneill wrote: »

Each country has to reduce population by 50%.
I know which group I'd start with.

I'd start with you

ToddyDoody · 17-10-2019 1:00pm

I see sheep wrote: »

I'd start with you

He might just mean have less kids.

Thelonious Monk · 17-10-2019 1:08pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Valid problems and all will have to be addrerssed in time.

Regarding the travel - I'm talking more for short distances. I'm travelling from Berlin to Amsterdam middle of next month and Deutche Bahn want 75 euro, whereas Easyjet want 88. And that's before I add the suitcase (contains paint, not an option as hand luggage). Same for other destinations in the same distance, such as Copenhagen, Prague or Munich.

Short term flights will be one of the first things to go: if it's less than 400-500 odd miles, there'll be a lot of empahsis on land-based travel. It's just a case of being a bit more organised and a bit less demanding. (As I said, this will be trickier for Ireland, being an island)

Travelling by train is so much nicer though, like loads of times when I lived in London I would take the train to Holyhead and then take the ferry, it's only 35 quid on the day from Euston. I could leave flat at 0830 and be back in me ma's at 1800 or so. If you take into account the stress and time involved going to airports etc it's not even that much different.
Unfortunately we're a bit more reliant on planes being an island, but I don't see why we need flights going to every corner of Europe and new routes being announced all the time. If you can fly to Paris or London or Madrid you can take trains anywhere really.

sbsquarepants · 17-10-2019 1:29pm

Wibbs wrote: »

. Cars are a good example of this. They are purposely designed to run well for a period of time, backed up by dealer only warranties for when they don't and then to be uneconomical to repair. This is madness, especially when we have had the tech since at least the 90's to make cars that could last far far longer and be easier to repair. .

I'm not sure that's the best example Wibbs, my car is 12 years old, drives perfectly, looks perfect(ish) - i know nothing about cars, i haven't been steadily maintaining it, i only even clean it maybe once a year, i don't think i've ever checked the oil or anything like that. I probably get it serviced at 2 to 3 times the suggested intervals and apart from that I get the odd little thing that goes wrong fixed in a backstreet garage. Barring crashes i'll get another 5 years at least out of it no problem. There's been a light on the dash for the past 5 or 6 years, i neither know nor care what it means!

The problem that i can see with cars is rampant consumerism in the form of people using easy credit to keep up with the Jones's. The cars themselves last very well. When i was a kid a 10 year old car was a smoky, rusty death trap - i see ten year old cars today that may as well have just rolled off a production line.

ldy4mxonucwsq6 · 17-10-2019 1:50pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1BQPV-iCkU

LirW · 17-10-2019 2:12pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Travelling by train is so much nicer though, like loads of times when I lived in London I would take the train to Holyhead and then take the ferry, it's only 35 quid on the day from Euston. I could leave flat at 0830 and be back in me ma's at 1800 or so. If you take into account the stress and time involved going to airports etc it's not even that much different.
Unfortunately we're a bit more reliant on planes being an island, but I don't see why we need flights going to every corner of Europe and new routes being announced all the time. If you can fly to Paris or London or Madrid you can take trains anywhere really.

Train travel is indeed nice but it requires good infrastructure. This is not the case in Ireland unfortunately and a lot of train networks are very outdated. It's a crime that there is no inter-european high speed rail network that would allow us to travel between major cities in a matter of hours.

Also it does get significantly more difficult to refuse air travel if you have family scattered all over the place. If I want to see my mother, I can either get a plane, 4 hours and costs 1k for 4 of us if we get a good deal or a couple of days but taking the ferry to France, drive all the way down to Huelva, take the ferry to the canaries that only goes once a week and it costs me double for all 4 of us.
It's a weird time where flying is often the cheaper option. But I agree, this short distance city hopping for leisure is a big problem that has to stop.

Bob Harris · 17-10-2019 2:13pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree. The disproportion would likely come back, but almost certainly not in the same hands. Generational wealth would be gone for a start as those who built it up in the first place would be long dead.

I bet the Jews would get theirs back and more. Just ask Kevin Myers.

Neyite · 17-10-2019 2:32pm

I've noticed that sewing and knitting is dying out.

Where a generation ago it was a way of making something new for yourself cheaper than anything you could buy, it's now something of a niche expensive hobby. And years ago it was a life skill you needed to know.

It's too expensive to make your own clothes now. I tried on a poorly-made jacket costing €60 in Next a few months ago and decided that I could make my own in a style and fabric I preferred. But the stuff I need to make it would cost over €200 AND some of those fixtures and snap buttons being shipped from China. If I were to charge for my time that it would take to make the bloody thing you are looking at three times that amount. It's mad.

There's a generation emerging that's never threaded a needle.

How would it work in real life.

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