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Smart Lock

  • 05-04-2019 3:09pm
    #1
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Has anyone have/installed one? Im going to be doing a refurb job on my front door (not replacing just filling, sanding, paining etc) and it needs a new lock. A SmartLock would be handy but i'm wondering are they any good and is powering them a hassle. Everything I have is homekit currently so will likely go with something thats compatible.


Comments

  • #2
    Euphoriasean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭Euphoriasean


    Rew wrote: »
    Has anyone have/installed one? Im going to be doing a refurb job on my front door (not replacing just filling, sanding, paining etc) and it needs a new lock. A SmartLock would be handy but i'm wondering are they any good and is powering them a hassle. Everything I have is homekit currently so will likely go with something thats compatible.

    Any luck with this. Particularly looking at the August smart lock.

    https://august.com/products/august-smart-lock-pro-connect


  • #3
    Ush1
    Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Also interested in this, doing a big refurb on my house including new door so would love something smart and integrated with Google Home.


  • #4
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    I haven't done anymore on it but will over then next month or so hopefully. August seems to be the only viable option from what ive seen.


  • #5
    Euphoriasean
    Registered Users Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭Euphoriasean


    Don't think August will work here. I'm between the below. . I'm preferring Yale but it's getting expensive if you add the bridge (£99 for Samsung smart things hub and £59 for z-wave module).

    Yale
    https://www.yale.co.uk/en/yale/couk/products/smart-living/smart-door-locks/conexis-l1-smart-door-lock/

    Nuki Smart Lock
    [url] https://nuki.io/en/smart-lock/[/url]

    Danalock v3
    [url] https://danalock.com/products/danalock-v3-smart-lock/[/url]

    The Keys
    [url] https://www.the-keys.eu/en/[/url]


    Anyone have any of the above?


  • #6
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    Looking in to this myself at the mo.

    One of the things that has me worried about these locks is that my two year old is now at the stage where she can get the keys into the lock and can twist the key half way to open.

    As far as I know none of these can be disabled from the inside to prevent outbound access.

    Ideally I'd like something that needs an action a kid is unlikely to be able to figure out to open.

    Anyone know does anything like this exist in the smart lock space?
    Cheers.
    R.


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  • #7
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Roen wrote: »
    One of the things that has me worried about these locks is that my two year old is now at the stage where she can get the keys into the lock and can twist the key half way to open.

    I've thought about this issue myself with a three year old.

    I think the best solution is a security alarm system. Arm the alarm at night and if she tries going out, it will set it off.

    If all you are worried about is this issue, it doesn't have to be an expensive alarm system, just the cheap Xiaomi one with one door contact would do the job. You can even set it up to go bing-bong or similar every time the door is opened, even if the alarm isn't armed.

    BTW the issue with doors that can completely lock from the inside is what if there is a fire? Your child or even yourself might not be able to get the key and escape. That is why new doors all seem to come with thumb screws inside, rather then a key, to help with escape.


  • #8
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    bk wrote: »
    I've thought about this issue myself with a three year old.

    I think the best solution is a security alarm system. Arm the alarm at night and if she tries going out, it will set it off.

    If all you are worried about is this issue, it doesn't have to be an expensive alarm system, just the cheap Xiaomi one with one door contact would do the job. You can even set it up to go bing-bong or similar every time the door is opened, even if the alarm isn't armed.

    BTW the issue with doors that can completely lock from the inside is what if there is a fire? Your child or even yourself might not be able to get the key and escape. That is why new doors all seem to come with thumb screws inside, rather then a key, to help with escape.

    I actually have an alarm that can just be armed for door sensors. Good call. I did not think to use existing old tech.

    Only thing is though it's an fairly old basic one. Can't automate setting it on or off.

    I do have a zwave sensor on the front and back doors too in addition to the alarm sensors though.
    Can easily hook a siren to that or have the lights flash.

    I'd still prefer to have a preventative solution in the lock rather than being alerted after the fact.

    I'm not so worried about the fire thing as we're in a bungalow and all windows are egress windows.

    The fire safety thing is directly at odds with the security thing. Smashed glass pane and twist, you're in. Go secure and you're potentially struggling to unlock in the event of a fire. Can't win.


  • #9
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Roen wrote: »
    I actually have an alarm that can just be armed for door sensors. Good call. I did not think to use existing old tech.

    Only thing is though it's an fairly old basic one. Can't automate setting it on or off.

    I do have a zwave sensor on the front and back doors too in addition to the alarm sensors though.
    Can easily hook a siren to that or have the lights flash.

    I'd still prefer to have a preventative solution in the lock rather than being alerted after the fact.

    I'm not so worried about the fire thing as we're in a bungalow and all windows are egress windows.

    The fire safety thing is directly at odds with the security thing. Smashed glass pane and twist, you're in. Go secure and you're potentially struggling to unlock in the event of a fire. Can't win.

    Go more old school and add a chain. It'll stop a kid but an adult can easily pull it open in an emergency.


  • #10
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Roen wrote: »
    The fire safety thing is directly at odds with the security thing. Smashed glass pane and twist, you're in. Go secure and you're potentially struggling to unlock in the event of a fire. Can't win.

    Yep, they are pretty much diametrically opposed.

    If you go to Brazil, you'd see that every door and window has iron bars on them and the doors and surrounding wall are so re-inforced that it would take half an hour to smash through with a sledgehammer!

    So why don't we do the same? Well because despite how scary the idea of a burglary is, the reality is that burglaries are actually quite rare in Ireland and violent burglaries very rare.

    You are VASTLY more likely to die in a house fire in Ireland, then you are in a violent burglary * Unfortunately the same can't be said for Brazil where violent burglaries are very common.

    So our building regs and security industry is built more towards fire safety, easily being able to escape a house fire, fire brigade easily able to quickly smash through a door, etc.

    BTW I'm a ground floor apartment myself, so can go out the windows too, but I still prefer having quick access via the door too. Though I take your point about smashing the glass in the door, my door is all solid wood, no glass.

    The fact that doors with glass in them is so common in Ireland, shows how relatively low risk security threats are here.

    Also BTW most locks in Irish doors are ridiculously easy to bump and break into or just smash through if they really wanted to.

    An interesting topic on design and different cultures. Security and safety aren't straight forward at all.


  • #11
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    bk wrote: »
    .

    Also BTW most locks in Irish doors are ridiculously easy to bump and break into or just smash through if they really wanted to.

    An interesting topic on design and different cultures. Security and safety aren't straight forward at all.

    Not sure are they the best but I went for ABS Avocet for all locks in the house.
    I'm curious what actual cylinders the smart locks use. Seems to me that they just use bog standard piss easy to break ones. No confirmation just from trying to get a look at them on their respective vids.
    Doesn't look like sacrificial snap points on any of them.

    Quick edit: I wonder if you compare the barred windows of Victorian era houses in any Irish city could you draw a parallel with crime rates then versus modern more 'exotic' places.


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  • #12
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Roen wrote: »
    Not sure are they the best but I went for ABS Avocet for all locks in the house.

    A fantastic lock, excellent choice.
    Roen wrote: »
    I'm curious what actual cylinders the smart locks use. Seems to me that they just use bog standard piss easy to break ones. No confirmation just from trying to get a look at them on their respective vids.
    Doesn't look like sacrificial snap points on any of them.

    Given the quality lock you already have, perhaps best to go with one of the options that reuse your existing lock and key.

    I agree some of the ones the replace the cylinder look weak. Though as they are smart locks, they probably should have the ability to detect vibration and thus tampering and could notify you of such issues.

    And of course if you have a doorbell camera or similar IP camera, that should be well covered anyway.
    Roen wrote: »
    Quick edit: I wonder if you compare the barred windows of Victorian era houses in any Irish city could you draw a parallel with crime rates then versus modern more 'exotic' places.

    Excellent point, very true. Some of it comes down to the quality of policing. But probably the more important part is the point in the societies development, how rich it is, inequality, the gap between rich and poor, education, are the less well off looked after or are they desperate to survive, etc.


  • #13
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,359 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Interested in this also.
    I’m doing a side entrance conversion next week (roof over) and will be putting s new front door/gate in. I was originally looking at those digital/magnetic push button locks but the smart lock is an interesting idea.

    Out of the list above has anyone installed yet?
    Or what have you used?


  • #14
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Go more old school and add a chain. It'll stop a kid but an adult can easily pull it open in an emergency.

    Can you drill into pvc doors/frames? I mean if you don't hit steel you'll just be into the plastic.
    It's a Senator door.


  • #15
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    Actually what about handles that only work when the lock is turned past the unlock position.
    For clarification I insert key, twist to unlock, but then have to turn the key a further 1/8 turn to allow the handle to open the door.
    This last 1/8 turn is spring loaded. Would smart locks be able to do this too I wonder?

    Not even sure what the name on that type of mechanism is.


  • #16
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Roen wrote: »
    Can you drill into pvc doors/frames? I mean if you don't hit steel you'll just be into the plastic.
    It's a Senator door.

    It's only to keep a child in doors, strong adhesive will be enough.


  • #17
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    On to the-keys guys.
    As was started they have to have the door easily openable in case of fire so you can't disable from the inside.
    At least with my current set up if the side panel was smashed you'd still need the key.

    When asked is the cylinder anti bump or anti snap the guy just pointed me at this: https://www.ces.eu/en_us/products/mechanical-locking-systems/locking-systems.html
    Not sure what I'm supposed to be reading there but I'm guessing the cylinder is a step back from what I have.

    The convenience of a smart lock would be something I'd really love but if it means a step back in security I'm not so sure.
    The search continues.


  • #18
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Roen wrote: »
    On to the-keys guys.
    As was started they have to have the door easily openable in case of fire so you can't disable from the inside.
    At least with my current set up if the side panel was smashed you'd still need the key.

    I just thought, a lot of these smart locks have a button on them on the inside that allows you to unlock without the app (probably for the fire reasons, you wouldn't want to be searching around for your phone to unlock the door if there was a fire).

    But this means if someone was to smash the glass, then they could open many of these smart locks.

    Though perhaps you can disable that button in the app.
    Roen wrote: »
    When asked is the cylinder anti bump or anti snap the guy just pointed me at this: https://www.ces.eu/en_us/products/mechanical-locking-systems/locking-systems.html
    Not sure what I'm supposed to be reading there but I'm guessing the cylinder is a step back from what I have.

    Looks like a high security key, in other words a key that is hard to duplicate. But doesn't look anything special bump wise.

    It isn't a surprise that it is a step back in security, the lock you have is one of the best and most expensive locks.

    However the question I'd have, should you even really consider a lock to really be a security device? I mean even with a good lock, most doors have a poor frame and can usually be relatively easily smashed in anyway.

    You know the old saying "A lock only keeps honest people out."

    If you can afford a smart lock, then I'd assume you already have a security alarm system and maybe IP cameras.

    A shock sensor on that door/glass, which would set off the alarm if someone smashed it. IP cameras inside and out that would notify you of such an event and record it.

    If an IP camera pointing in a burglars face and a blaring security alarm doesn't bother him, I'm not sure even a good lock would make much of a difference.

    Based on that, I wonder if it is ok to go with perhaps a slightly less secure smart lock if you feel like you would benefit from the convenience?

    Security is almost always a trade off between security and convenience.
    Roen wrote: »
    The convenience of a smart lock would be something I'd really love but if it means a step back in security I'm not so sure.
    The search continues.

    Did you check out Nuki, it looks like that might work with your existing lock and key?


  • #19
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,855 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    bk wrote: »
    I just thought, a lot of these smart locks have a button on them on the inside that allows you to unlock without the app (probably for the fire reasons, you wouldn't want to be searching around for your phone to unlock the door if there was a fire).

    But this means if someone was to smash the glass, then they could open many of these smart locks.

    Though perhaps you can disable that button in the app.



    Looks like a high security key, in other words a key that is hard to duplicate. But doesn't look anything special bump wise.

    It isn't a surprise that it is a step back in security, the lock you have is one of the best and most expensive locks.

    However the question I'd have, should you even really consider a lock to really be a security device? I mean even with a good lock, most doors have a poor frame and can usually be relatively easily smashed in anyway.

    You know the old saying "A lock only keeps honest people out."

    If you can afford a smart lock, then I'd assume you already have a security alarm system and maybe IP cameras.

    A shock sensor on that door/glass, which would set off the alarm if someone smashed it. IP cameras inside and out that would notify you of such an event and record it.

    If an IP camera pointing in a burglars face and a blaring security alarm doesn't bother him, I'm not sure even a good lock would make much of a difference.

    Based on that, I wonder if it is ok to go with perhaps a slightly less secure smart lock if you feel like you would benefit from the convenience?

    Security is almost always a trade off between security and convenience.



    Did you check out Nuki, it looks like that might work with your existing lock and key?

    Better to keep them out with a decent lock than have a recording of someone in a hoddy robbing your home. People ignore alarms and while a verified person on premises will get a Garda response it'll be a low priority response and with their staffing issues might not be responded to. I know someone who was in their home when someone broke in and their partner arrived long before the Gardai.


  • #20
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,446 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Better to keep them out with a decent lock than have a recording of someone in a hoddy robbing your home. People ignore alarms and while a verified person on premises will get a Garda response it'll be a low priority response and with their staffing issues might not be responded to. I know someone who was in their home when someone broke in and their partner arrived long before the Gardai.

    Problem is, once you starting thinking about this, you quickly realise that even a decent lock isn't going to stop a burglar who is that determined.

    Lock is good, then they just take a hammer to a window. Or pop out the externally beaded glass of a window. Or they take a crow bar or sledgehammer to the door and frame.

    If they are going to smash the glass in the door to use the lock. Then clearly they are a person who has no issue with strolling over to a downstairs window or patio door and smashing that and then going through that if the lock is too good.

    So yes, you can put a good lock in, but that now just shifts the weak point. If you are serious about this, you should be replacing your door and frame with a high security door and re-inforced frame and of course you need to do this for both the front and back door and any patio door. And now you need to replace all the windows with at least high security glass and maybe even those iron bars/shutters like in Brazil...

    And all of that is going to cost thousands.


  • #21
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    Cheers lads, all interesting points. Hope the conversation is of use to you @Rew.

    Looking at them all they all seem to lack something or other.
    I'll have to compromise or wait it out.
    Thanks again.


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  • #22
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Yeah its all very interesting. Everyone should break into their own house at least once it's an eye opener. I opened the front door of a previous house with a shovel from my shed when we accidentally left a key in the lock on the inside. There was no damage to the door in the process. You make your house unattractive to burglar and tick the insurance boxes soy you're covered.


  • #23
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    Got on to Nuki support there and showed them a vid of how my door and lock operate. They don't work with handles you need to lift to lock. Now you can always lift it yourself when you come in or leave so the lock can do it's thing.
    That breaks down when you have a guest or delivery person who forgets to.

    I asked them is the lock able to sense if it's twisting against something it can't turn but got no answer.

    So potentially the lock mechanism could knacker itself if you or someone forgot to lift a handle.

    I guess you'll never get a one size fits all solution for something like this.

    EDIT.
    Ah they got back, confirmed it can't sense if it'll be twisting against something that can't turn.


  • #24
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Roen wrote: »
    Got on to Nuki support there and showed them a vid of how my door and lock operate. They don't work with handles you need to lift to lock. Now you can always lift it yourself when you come in or leave so the lock can do it's thing.
    That breaks down when you have a guest or delivery person who forgets to.

    I asked them is the lock able to sense if it's twisting against something it can't turn but got no answer.

    So potentially the lock mechanism could knacker itself if you or someone forgot to lift a handle.

    I guess you'll never get a one size fits all solution for something like this.

    EDIT.
    Ah they got back, confirmed it can't sense if it'll be twisting against something that can't turn.

    Thats interesting. Was thinking about a smart lock for our new door (we just got a new palladio door fitted about 6 months ago). Palladio had the yale smart lock as an option, which we didnt go fo, but our door is also one that you need to lift the handle to lock, so wonder how that worked with the yale system, or would it have meant a different locking mechanism entirely for the door.

    Think a few people raised the issue of insurance cover with these smart locks as well, but would love to get one if there was a suitable brand for my door.


  • #25
    Roen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,620 ✭✭✭Roen


    The Yale yoke is the entire handle though. Watched the installation vid on it and it's way more involved than the other options here.

    The majority of the smart locks mentioned here either use your existing cylinder or replace it with your own without touching the handle mechanism.


  • #26
    kaisersose77
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭kaisersose77


    For the likes of Nuki, is it possible to change from a lift to lock handle to a lock that doesnt require lift to lock but still just as secure?


  • #27
    Dublinstiofán
    Registered Users Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭Dublinstiofán


    I thought about this recently and was advised by a locksmith not to put in these smart locks, he said they’re not as reliable as normal locks.

    Instead he put a new mortise lock on the front door for additional security and changed the barrels so that one key opens the 5 locks in the house and I put a ring doorbell in which was easier to get power to than the smart lock.

    That’s just my opinion smart locks could work really well but having one key for everything is no burden.


  • #28
    kaisersose77
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭kaisersose77


    kaisersose77 wrote: »
    For the likes of Nuki, is it possible to change from a lift to lock handle to a lock that doesnt require lift to lock but still just as secure?

    To answer my own question its probably something like this that would be needed.

    https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Winkhaus-AV2-Auto-Locking-Lever-Operated-Latch-Deadbolt-20mm-Radius-45mm-RH/181929390308?hash=item2a5bd630e4:g:fWEAAOSwI-BWQ0NL


  • #29
    kaisersose77
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭kaisersose77


    Picked up a nuki on ebay and its good so far only negative is having to lift the handle to lock but i had known that before buying. Theres an auto unlock feature that will unlock the door if you come within a certain distance of the door so will be handy coming home from work etc while just having to lift handle to lock is still handy when leaving (door can be set to lock a certain time after it has been unlocked). They are noisy enough since its basically a little motor moving a key (you use a spare key and the nuki moves that to lock and unlock).

    They are a brilliant idea since installation only involves placing the device over the key slot (uses sticky tape so its bascially installed in seconds) and using a key is still an option. If the price was cheaper and irish doors didnt typically require the handle to be lifted to lock i'd say this would be the must have smart lock.


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