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Universal basic income trial in Finland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭c_man


    I wouldn't say no to free money.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    The moment robots take over all labour jobs is the moment socialism would be rife due to no value in labour. The social impact would be enormous, the social interactions between people, the feeling of accomplishment and earning a wage. It is in the instincts of a lion to hunt than be given it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Excellent 1 shot podcast talking to the people chosen to take part in the trial run of the scheme in Finland and how it’s impacted and changed their lives.
    Explains the set up and process really well too

    https://itunes.apple.com/ie/podcast/99-invisible/id394775318?mt=2&i=1000392459910


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    There isn't a Universal basic income trial in Finland.

    There is a basic income trial in Finland, but it isn't universal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    The moment robots take over all labour jobs is the moment socialism would be rife due to no value in labour. The social impact would be enormous, the social interactions between people, the feeling of accomplishment and earning a wage. It is in the instincts of a lion to hunt than be given it.

    yes, I would worry about that too. It's not like unemployment makes people happy now and society is too atomised.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,710 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    that will come in handy for him .. Bono is a bit skint lately ..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Imagine a world where automation does 40% of jobs and will do 90% of jobs. And I dont mean that new jobs will be created in this scenario but that the unemployment rate will be 90%.

    Yet we potentially have a very efficient AI driven society. The problem is that without money nobody guys anything, and without people buying anything the AI will in fact not be very useful. Actually either society will collapse or automation will be banned.

    There are a few solutions here, a form of communism where the governments own the AI, and people get "according to their needs". I personally would not like that.

    Alternatively a capitalism with UBI might work. How money is created could be the problem.

    Surely if that were to happen then what is most valued by humans would be whatever is not possible to be done by AI, and this is where most people could be employed, the social sciences for example.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,710 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    It's an interesting idea, what is the logic behind it I wonder?

    something to do with automation/robots taking over menial jobs within the next 10 years in industry as well apparently. when robots take over boring, monotonous jobs will put a lot of people out of them jobs and they will have to avail of it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    amcalester wrote: »
    Surely if that were to happen then what is most valued by humans would be whatever is not possible to be done by AI, and this is where most people could be employed, the social sciences for example.

    yeh, well thats another form of UBI - government employment for all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,710 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    would that not be per week?

    I had to do a double take on that - Ireland get 748 a month dont they? (im not on dole so i dont know)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,703 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Imagine a world where automation does 40% of jobs and will do 90% of jobs. And I dont mean that new jobs will be created in this scenario but that the unemployment rate will be 90%.

    Indeed, but we can imagine it - it has been happening for hundreds of years. From the industrial revolution to widespread automation in the 70s and 80s.. yet despite all the thousands of professions wiped out and billions of workers replaced - we have e.g. 6% unemployment

    Absolutely more automation and AI is coming and it is going to be a challenge, but potential "90%" unemployment future doomsday scenarios are not something economists are losing sleep over. It's likely to be fairly gradual and I'm sure we'll adapt.

    In the highly unlikely event decent UBI does get adopted in my lifetime, I'm certainly quitting work and off to live like a king in some poor paradise with it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Indeed, but we can imagine it - it has been happening for hundreds of years. From the industrial revolution to widespread automation in the 70s and 80s.. yet despite all the thousands of professions wiped out and billions of workers replaced - we have e.g. 6% unemployment

    Except I asked you to imagine a society with 90% unemployment. That was a non-negotionable part of the thought expermiment. Its also the only situation where UBI would be really necessary. Its not needed now.
    Absolutely more automation and AI is coming and it is going to be a challenge, but potential "90%" unemployment future doomsday scenarios are not something economists are losing sleep over. It's likely to be fairly gradual and I'm sure we'll adapt.

    In the highly unlikely event decent UBI does get adopted in my lifetime, I'm certainly quitting work and off to live like a king in some poor paradise with it

    You can do that later on in life with your pension UBI, anyway, so just wait.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,394 ✭✭✭✭Timmaay


    Interesting tedtalk about this recently :
    Martin Ford: How we'll earn money in a future without jobs
    https://go.ted.com/CX4e

    Basically put conditions on the ubi, higher pay for increasing your level of education, community service etc etc. The idea of living my life on a dole alike ubi with no incentive to be productive etc to the world and therefore nothing meaningful to strive for sounds like utter hell ha, mental health is already a huge problem of this generation and just paying everyone to do nothing wouldn't help ha!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Timmaay wrote: »
    Interesting tedtalk about this recently :
    Martin Ford: How we'll earn money in a future without jobs
    https://go.ted.com/CX4e

    Basically put conditions on the ubi, higher pay for increasing your level of education, community service etc etc. The idea of living my life on a dole alike ubi with no incentive to be productive etc to the world and therefore nothing meaningful to strive for sounds like utter hell ha, mental health is already a huge problem of this generation and just paying everyone to do nothing wouldn't help ha!

    The bitcoin guys mine coin by using their machines to do something that is probably worthless to society ( although it may be worthwhile to Bit Coin). Anyway money is just created on machines.

    The point of UBI is you dont have to be on the dole, you can work -- if there is any, or volunteer, or whatever. I havent seen any models that increase the payment for community service etc, that would be effectively payment for work. However you can make more money than the UBI by selling services that machines cant or its not worthwhile for them to do. A market economy would still exist.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ Sylas Creamy Saga


    Even now there are a ****-ton of jobs that are unnecessary. Mine is, though if someone's willing to pay along a chain for it then who am I to argue? :P
    Simple fact of the matter is that as automation rolls on there'll be fewer jobs, so we need to address that fact. Switching to a 5-day week was one step when another huge wave of automation happened. I personally think going to a 4 day week would be a better and more straightforward step than UBI for the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,171 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Even now there are a ****-ton of jobs that are unnecessary. Mine is, though if someone's willing to pay along a chain for it then who am I to argue? :P
    Simple fact of the matter is that as automation rolls on there'll be fewer jobs, so we need to address that fact. Switching to a 5-day week was one step when another huge wave of automation happened. I personally think going to a 4 day week would be a better and more straightforward step than UBI for the moment.

    Even without automation a whole lot of people are just busy fools who are trapped in a system. So many people (myself included) do jobs that provide no real tangible benefit to society as a whole.

    Large parts of the legal profession, corporate bureaucrats, companies that do nothing but import & resell, marketing (convincing people to buy sh1t they don't need), financial services can be just done away with and replaced with a simpler alternative.


  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ Sylas Creamy Saga


    Even without automation a whole lot of people are just busy fools who are trapped in a system. So many people (myself included) do jobs that provide no real tangible benefit to society as a whole.

    Large parts of the legal profession, corporate bureaucrats, companies that do nothing but import & resell, marketing (convincing people to buy sh1t they don't need), financial services can be just done away with and replaced with a simpler alternative.
    Yeah those are the unnecessary ones I mean. I don't bother explaining what I do to people because I know if someone explained it to me I'd be bored and/or think what a waste of money it was. :pac:
    But that's just how things are. Without those jobs there'd be very little.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,703 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Of course you will be paying more in tax on the higher levels but this would still be a universal benefit.

    The taxpayers are supporting everyone over the age of 18 who are now suddenly receiving a fixed sum every month (working, not working and don't want to work)

    I can't even imagine the inflation that would create..


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    I think this is a very very bad idea.

    The concept of this would only work if humans are equal and are all equally motivated to work and live to a certain standard.

    Giving certain people enough to scrape by will just result in a certain few using everything they get on alcohol, drugs and avoiding work.

    The Dole at least has some restrictions which motivate people to work in most cases.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    The taxpayers are supporting everyone over the age of 18 who are now suddenly receiving a fixed sum every month (working, not working and don't want to work)

    I can't even imagine the inflation that would create..

    Inflation?. Chance would be a fine thing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,703 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    I think this is a very very bad idea.

    The concept of this would only work if humans are equal and are all equally motivated to work and live to a certain standard.

    Giving certain people enough to scrape by will just result in a certain few using everything they get on alcohol, drugs and avoiding work.

    The Dole at least has some restrictions which motivate people to work in most cases.

    why arent we helping those with addiction and other complex problems and why do some avoid work?

    does the restrictions of the dole really motivate people to work?




  • brevity wrote: »
    The machines are taking the unskilled jobs.
    AI is going to be taking a lot of skilled jobs. Anything that's not creative or human facing is at risk in the short-to-medium term.


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Ronaldinho


    Inflation?. Chance would be a fine thing.

    Why do you say that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    I think this is a very very bad idea.

    The concept of this would only work if humans are equal and are all equally motivated to work and live to a certain standard.

    Giving certain people enough to scrape by will just result in a certain few using everything they get on alcohol, drugs and avoiding work.

    The Dole at least has some restrictions which motivate people to work in most cases.

    What if your job went and never came back?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    does the restrictions of the dole really motivate people to work?

    You often hear that people on the dole would be worse off if they did a few hours a week work as they lose benefits. That isnt the case with UBI. Someone could do 4 hours a day while their kids are at school.

    Also removing the pressure of having to work for minimum wage encourages people to take a few more risks and set up businesses since they have a basic wage no matter what.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    AI is going to be taking a lot of skilled jobs. Anything that's not creative or human facing is at risk in the short-to-medium term.

    Or stuff that is creative and human facing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,613 ✭✭✭server down


    Ronaldinho wrote: »
    Why do you say that?

    What’s wrong with moderate inflation? It reduces people’s debt burden. The cost of servicing the mortgage on my house is exactly the same as it was 5 years ago. In a different era it would be 20% lower in real terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    What if your job went and never came back?

    I would retrain to do something else.

    You expect that if someones job becomes redundant they should be able to sit on the couch for the rest of their lives?


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭Ronaldinho


    What’s wrong with moderate inflation? It reduces people’s debt burden. The cost of servicing the mortgage on my house is exactly the same as it was 5 years ago. In a different era it would be 20% lower in real terms.

    At this point in time I think a rise in inflation much above current levels would put a squeeze on peoples' real incomes, as has happened in the UK.

    I don't think there's too many people out there that would be confident of getting a pay rise out of the employer in the morning if they tried to negotiate.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,710 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    It could either be a great success or bring about economic ruination.

    It will be very interesting to see how this trial goes. I will be watching with interest. But it is something we will have to examine. More and more machines will take the jobs of humans freeing up the population for more leisure or cultural activities.

    freeing up people for leisure and other activities mean that, that kind of sector will flourish wont it? - people will have more expendable time and more money or same money they are used to but more time for recreation - and lets face it if people arent working all hours they are going to have to do something with all that extra time


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