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Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    teagasc got plain freisians away at 293 at around 24 months

    The longer you hold an animal the more he costs. As the head up towards 30 months they are nearly eating as much grass as a cow. The longer you keep an animal the more methane they emit. Prices tend to dip as well.

    Considering the lower price and marginal gains it may not be worth keeping them longer



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭amacca


    The more animals I have the more methane they emit too


    The more animals I and others have the lower the price they get per kg


    The more animals I have to buy and the more inputs I have to put into them the more that costs....


    The more inputs used the more GHGs produced


    Lower age limits are intensification.....the very thing that these limits are supposed to ameliorate....


    I find that curious.....



    It may be worth keeping them longer because


    One would carry less heads


    One would need to use less inputs


    One would need to do less buying and selling


    Less volume produced may lead to higher prices.....I'm not sure more volume and more heads would improve the price

    Etc


    The grass they eat when they go over about 26/27 months seems to go more towards body condition rather than growth....leaving it the cheapest most efficient and natural way to have an animal fit imo


    This farmer at least can't see any benefit for the environment or the business in a lower age limit.....



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    If you are hitting Bass’s numbers of 370 dw for freisians at 30 to 32 months then you could make that argument, however, at that age you have stock eating your autumn grazing meaning you will end up housing sooner.

    A good working relationship with a dairy farmer might allow you to procure calves of high feed efficiency and decent quality to get stock away sooner and/or at lower inputs of grass and silage etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭amacca


    I may not necessarily want a good working relationship with another supplier I will be dependant upon....I'm not sure it would really be a good working relationship tbh....I specifically avoid that kind of risk and avoid dependancy tbh...my experience to date would suggest that's a bit idealistic to say the least....being independent and controlling your inputs and costs is the most valuable asset I have afaic.


    So what, your justification for lowering age limits is I may get better quality stock from a local dairy farmer that may be possible to finish earlier with minimal inputs in the future???



  • Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭youllbemine


    Very interesting discussion lads. Wonderful discussion. My question is where does it all stop? What will be the next requirement once this age limit is brought in. It's as if Larry sat down and said 'what would make me a pile more cash'. And he came up with the age limit idea and used his marketing department to sell it to the government as an emissions saving idea and they have fully bought in to it and won't stop until Larry's wet dream has been fulfilled. Pure nonsense. As said above, this is further intensification to what end? The lads on good land will say grand we can cope with this but where does it end. And the vilification of farmers is sickening (non farmer with a serious interest in all things agriculture).



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  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    They won’t lower age limits, the suggestion from the minister is to target a 24 month finish to allow for a reduction in emissions. To achieve that the quality of beef coming out of dairy stock will need to improve but there would need to be justification for the dairy farmer to do that.

    The reality is that if it takes 30 months to finish a bullock then something is up. It’s either a lesser quality animal or less than ideal herd management.

    Keeping stock at grass still costs money. An animal that takes that long to finish is an inefficient converter in my opinion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I have visited one of those farms. I have seen the figures on those cattle. They are feeding Friesians a couple of Kg's over the winter. It's 293 average. There grading is brutal. It's seems all about numbers. They kill the best of there Friesian in November at 275 kgs or less average. Some O- lots of P grades. Lots of 2+ FS. Brutal prices. Most of these will not hit ABP new bonus scheme.

    They kill again mid winter after 60-80 days feeding. Again sub 300 kgs DW. They kill again in early May off grass. There grading and price is brutal.

    They are moving cattle every few days. They are reseeding and spreading a lot of fertlizer. They are taking out surplus paddocks. They have the calves from birth. Last year the figures were absolutely brutal. This year the high price may hide some of that.

    They are probably getting a special price because they are in Teagasc Green acres program. If I took them cattle to the factory they absolutely slaughter me.

    You seem to have a fierce bee I. You bonnet about the price dropping. Ya maybe if doing calf to beef. Early slaughter is achievable on the better breed AA, HE or FR animal. However they need to be pushed from the day they land on the ground.

    However on a 40-60 acre farm that is 5-8 bunches of cattle. I run two groups from April to nearly August. They as I start feeding everything I be buying in replacements I have maybe three bunches.

    Over the last 5-7 years the worst price part of the year has been October to March. Processor's have refused to rise prices before Christmas as they traditionally did.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    That’s the problem though. If the quality of the stock is low the turnaround is longer.

    The 24 month turnaround around might be unrealistic for poorer stock but they want to get away from the 30 months to reach the emissions target on the low side of 22%.

    My point has always been that it is desirable to get cattle away early summer as it offers the chance of a traditionally higher price, frees up land, gets cash flow in and sees you ahead of the posse.

    There used to be an elevated demand for beef around Christmas that drove prices up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    The only reason that cattle price are higher early summer is because supply is scarce. If supply increases early summer then prices will fall you cannot seem to grasp that.

    7+ years ago there used to be a nice little touch out of cattle from the week before Christmas to the end of January. This was because at the time a lot of dairy farmers ran a calf to beef operation and calving was from mid/late Feb on. They would literally dump these cattle into Larry from the start of Feb on.

    If you had cattle ready in that six week period the price would rise and you make a nice touch. The processors would pull the price by 20c/ kg. The real trick was light Fr and Jex bulls under 24 months FS2=/+ and 3. They would grade them as bullocks but pay you the flat O grade bull price.

    But then you had the horse meat saga and processor's stopped grading those bulls as bullocks. The dairy man started to exit beef finishing. So the larger processor's started to contract in supply and decided they were not going to pay extra for pre Christmas beef. That was the start of the end of winter finishing for the smaller finisher.

    Only as long as there is a shortage of supply will processor's pay a higher price for May/June cattle.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    I can’t see the increased supply happening that time of the year unless it is mandated.

    The minister talks about teagasc efficiencies and getting slaughter age down but that seems to be a cop out as the quality of animal isn’t there to get an early finish (and won’t be) and teagasc are a total fraud when you see how they run their farms.

    The price generally is higher then so it is a good time to have stock ready.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,918 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    Now come on here Teagasc have an open cheque book and are not accountable to any one and have plenty of staff and some of the best land in the country, did they not get the dairy extra calves wrong. Wake up to the real world. Factories don’t want under finished cattle at high prices due to fitting into less spec markets and smaller markets, killing store cattle as Bass is saying is a crazy practice.



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    Exactly, teagasc run their farms like how Man City run there team. Money no object , but ignore that look at how “efficient “ our system is.

    Having said that, I still think 30 months is some old age to be finishing cattle at



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,918 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    A good working relationship with a dairy farm, stop again. Take his rubbish calves and get him off the hook of producing what the exporter can’t ship and what the factories want to hold down the price with poor calves. This is the dairy mans problem to sort, breed a better calf and feed the calf from day one.



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    If the dairy farmer had decent quality calves then why not have a good working relationship with him and avoid mart fees etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,397 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    You've answered your own pie in the sky argument "less then ideal grassland management' this line alone probably covers 95% of your average calf to beef part-time farmer that's more concerned with the day job then moving pigtails and our spending a small fortune paddocking and putting a water system in place to facilitate paddock grazing, of course theirs the issue of anything in a bag with n on it costing 900 odd euro plus a ton which translates into a loss making venture with current beef prices no matter what way you try it



  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    I think current beef prices are high.

    Like if fellows can’t make money on the dairy calves then the dairy lads will be stuck with the calves and will have to finish them.

    This will lead to the dairy lads either reducing numbers or improving calf quality.

    You don’t have to put in road ways and paddocks and spread loads of fertiliser to improve grass utilisation. The easiest method is to not overgraze and move stock more regularly



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Buying off dairy farmers is a hard task. They always want to deal at the start of the year when prices are high. They want the highest mart prices especially for AA and HE. They will generally want the calves gone yesterday.

    Paddocking is not costing a fortune. I have seen it set up with pigtails and string. Water troughs should always be in the middle of the field one trough can cover 4 paddocks. Maybe even more if you are willing to work triangular strips.

    I am using as much fertilizer this year as last, it not loss making unless your are lashing it out and not using paddocks. Ya ideally with calves move the fence every day and back fence.

    It will be very hard to get dairy farmers to reduce numbers. As long as some lads are will to take the real poor calves or they can get the killed they will continue at it. It's only when they are responsible for the calf to six months that things will change.

    Biggest problem will be when exports ceasebor become unviable. Calf movement will be 21+ days soon but only to 50-80km. The real catch is that 4-5 EU county want a minimum expected weaning age of eight weeks so calves will not be able to be exported until 8-10 weeks of age

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Doesn't have to be mandatory. Introduce a 20c bonus on animals finished under 24 months will do it nicely.

    The chill will be packed for May.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭amacca


    If they offer a bonus for it they will lower age limits by default


    The reality isn't 30 months finish is poor management on most of what I buy.....its letting them come fit naturally with minimum inputs......a more sustainable and resilient way to do it (at the moment in the states some feedlots are faced with a choice of feed the animals as feed prices are shooting up and hope for a good price or cull, its grand to cull at the moment but whatbhappens when they all pull the trigger? the kind of efficiency you are a proponent of is what gets you to situations where your hand is forced)....tbh I think age limits should be moved up so I'm not under pressure to offload before the product becomes devalued by a spurious limit....you may have a point about lesser quality animals but I don't see that changing unless the dairy man is left with them or novices stop buying lesser quality animals off them for quality prices...neither will happen unless they are made finish their own stock or retain the offspring for a long period.......


    Anyway afaic the "Efficiency" you talk of is efficiency in terms of converting feed to weight as quickly as possible without reference to the true cost of the inputs other than grass that requires ......and without reference to how dependant or at the mercy of the whims of the system that makes the primary producer...its not efficiency for my business and increasingly takes away control from me, they guy that actually works at the coalface.....I can see no benefit in it for me or the environment (you know, the thing these proposed changes are supposed to be helping)......I'm grand with lads making the choice to put a gun to their own heads but I'm not ok with it being levered into place beside mine by the system.


    In fairness, it used to be the name of the game but its time to broaden your horizons.....any push towards lower age limits is destructive to the small producer and directly equates to pressure towards intensification


    In a time when the aim is to lower GHG emissions........I think its at the point where you couldn't make up what's going on tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭ginger22


    There isnt much point whinging on here. The thing is its going to happen whether we like it or not. Lads will have to change and adapt or get out, same applies to dairy or beef. In my experience anything that forces reduced production is good for farmers income.



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  • Posts: 0 Hanna Some Jury


    When do you house your cattle each winter?

    I don’t see any value in keeping stock over 30 months. I aim to get mine away sooner and at better weights



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭amacca


    I can never understand why some feel it necessary to characterise a person making and defending an argument/opinion/point as a whinger?


    I wasn't aware of any whingy tone, to the best of my knowledge this an online forum where people debate....I'm persistent yes (in response to a poster that keeps making counterpoints that I think aren't valid so why should I desist?) but tbh I don't feel like a whinger, I'm not expecting anyone here to do anything about it, Im not delusional (on that at least 😅).....I just find it interesting they can argue my point but always around the fringes, never directly addressing the central argument and never acknowledging I may just have a point.


    A part of my point btw was If the lower age limits happen by incentive/regulation whatever it seems likely to me it would incentivise more production and more spending on inputs for lesser prices .......


    I think they should be incentivising extensive production, I think that would happen if the age limits were moving higher not lower.....not one poster to date has rebutted convincingly around that point......always around it with talk of "efficiency".......their kind of efficiency that as far as I can see ensures volume of product at depressed prices.


    Do you see what I mean?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Beef prices are high and were very high.


    The cost of inputs are very very high.


    Add in now the cost of cattle can be high especially for your non plain cattle.


    We hear ad nauseam about how we must move away from Beef and Milk from the activist class.


    Meanwhile horticulture in Ireland is on its last hurrah, going back to banning below cost selling would make a massive difference, not a hope. Greens silent on that.

    No one across Europe wants to pay for food. Doesn't matter what type, organic especially though.

    Maybe the reality is your way, high intensity finishing, plough, Fertilizer, ration and American feed lot model.


    It's people pretending that it is going to benefit the environment that sticks in the craw.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    What is worth noting as well re high Beef prices is its been a quare one for grass growth.


    January it was lifting, April,it wasn't, first week of May average, then a month of probably the best growth in many years. This will vary place to place.

    Steady but not spectacular since. Like an old fella piking in silage, some days horsing it, other days not lifting much.


    If it had been a wet summer, a 2018 drought etc the wheels could really have fallen off the cart.


    24 month beef needs great land for the years things fall badly weather wise. It used be called sustainability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    However if the reduced production require more inputs, ultra high quality silage, constant reseeding, more fertlizer more ration and reduces the grades and FS of the cattle it's a zero sum game for farmers

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,096 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They know that I think, their intention is to upscale beef to a lot more of larger and intensive operators and balance that out by forcing smaller producers to very low stocking rate, paid environmental schemes,the suckler man in to Organics etc.


    Friesian and late finishing Cattle will be cheap bought, eat the grass,cheap sold and leave a bit to maintain the place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Sorry "whinging" was an unfortunate word, Its just that I cant stand unproductive thought, to my mind there is always a solution to every problem life throws as us. Again I apologise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭ginger22


    Well that is true. But the thing is those regulations are beyond our control. Lads must adapt their system to make it as profitable as possible within the regulations. Its either adapt or get out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭amacca


    Ah no hassle, I don't like the characterisation but no real need to apologise, all part of the cut and thrust!


    I can agree with what you've said there to some degree, as in its mostly true and better to adapt but I do see the direction this is travelling as not being in the majority of small to medium producers interests and squeezing family farms...the adaption will mean being slowly being squeezed out and thats a shame imo


    The lower age limits is anti the kind of image and product we should be aiming towards imo...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,285 ✭✭✭Anto_Meath


    I get the impression that there is a push to get beef production to the same place pig and chickens production is currently at. In that it is high numbers through and everything is nearly done to the calendar, you spend x number of days intensive feeding and that is it they are out the gate. As can be seen in the pig & chicken industries this gives full control to the processors, but the farmer is carrying all the costs and the risks. We can all see easy enough how that has worked our for the small and medium pig and chicken producer, I don't think there is any left.



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