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e-Working and home workers Claim

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  • 12-06-2019 10:39am
    #1
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭


    Revenue allows 3.20 per day worked at home. - https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/employee-expenses/e-working-and-home-workers/index.aspx

    Heres where this gets interesting.

    Several of us all work for the same company and we tend to submit these around the same time. We get two different outcomes:

    "No Problem Sir Here is the 3.20 per day"

    Or
    "
    You need to submit your bills to show your light and heat cost. Then we divide that by 20% and thats what we pay."

    I Made revenue aware that my some colleagues got the full payment without any documentation, and then asked why did I have to submit my bills only to get a partial payment. They informed me "This has always been the case".

    There is no public documentation online on the 20% of the bills calculation either.

    How can this vary like this from person to person?

    Note: I know its great I get anything but the difference between myself and some colleagues is in the hundreds of euro, stretching to thousands if its backdated.

    Note 2: Revenues physical office refuse to deal with my questions in person and refer me to the phone who refer me to revenue.ie


«1

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    #2
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    Someone in Revenue is confusing "e-working" (for which the first response is correct) with being self-employed and operating a business from home (for which the second response is correct). Or your colleagues are not explaining themselves properly... I suspect it's a combination of both. It doesn't vary from person to person. That's all.

    Revenue case workers may assume your query relates to self-employment, as this is a far more common question, and the answer will depend on whether you are speaking to someone in the income tax or PAYE sections of Revenue. They would treat this query differently. Most caseworkers in the income tax section are somewhat unlikely to be familiar with the rules around "e-working" and so from them you would get the second answer.

    As a rule Revenue don't offer general tax advice over the phone, they will only deal with queries specific to the taxpayer they are speaking to - same story in the public offices, so if you are asking them why it seems to be one rule for you and another for your colleagues, they're not going to answer that.


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    #3
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    wiggle16 wrote: »
    Someone in Revenue is confusing "e-working" (for which the first response is correct) with being self-employed and operating a business from home (for which the second response is correct). Or your colleagues are not explaining themselves properly... I suspect it's a combination of both. It doesn't vary from person to person. That's all.

    Revenue case workers may assume your query relates to self-employment, as this is a far more common question, and the answer will depend on whether you are speaking to someone in the income tax or PAYE sections of Revenue. They would treat this query differently. Most caseworkers in the income tax section are somewhat unlikely to be familiar with the rules around "e-working" and so from them you would get the second answer.

    As a rule Revenue don't offer general tax advice over the phone, they will only deal with queries specific to the taxpayer they are speaking to - same story in the public offices, so if you are asking them why it seems to be one rule for you and another for your colleagues, they're not going to answer that.

    So With this information I contacted revenue this morning, I discussed my case over the phone and mentioned that they may be confusing my claim with some self employment claim. The phone advisor read the information available on the link i posted above. Told me my bills would be portioned, i asked about this and they when he tried to explain it he mentioned self employed several times while explaining this, I asked him why he was again referring to self employed, he didn't say why and got fairly agitated with me and started referring me to the appeals process and speaking over me to get me off the phone. Any other way to attack this issue? Maybe hire an accountant?

    Some actual figures for why Im after this

    Me: Could only claim for 2017 so far with bills: €240 euro (Bills needed)

    Colleague in same role on same team, working same amount of days: €3,180 euro (Backdated to 2015 no bills needed)


  • Options
    #4
    LizardKing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭LizardKing


    I get this €3.20 per workday E-working payment from my employer every quarter.

    It was difficult to get them to agree to it but once all was agreed its fine.

    I could not back date any of it. Its based on days you worked.

    so I work out the days I work each quarter e.g 64 days and they pay me 204.80 (64 * 3.20) as an expense

    This is to help cover heating and electricity expenses incurred. No need to submit receipts or bills.

    ( you can still expense other stuff separately if allowed by your employer e.g broadband, phone , mobile )


  • Options
    #5
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    LizardKing wrote: »
    I get this €3.20 per workday E-working payment from my employer every quarter.

    It was difficult to get them to agree to it but once all was agreed its fine.

    I could not back date any of it. Its based on days you worked.

    so I work out the days I work each quarter e.g 64 days and they pay me 204.80 (64 * 3.20) as an expense

    This is to help cover heating and electricity expenses incurred. No need to submit receipts or bills.

    ( you can still expense other stuff separately if allowed by your employer e.g broadband, phone , mobile )

    Thats it, or you can claim the same directly from revenue, like said above they must have their wires crossed in revenue.


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    #6
    LizardKing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭LizardKing


    I found revenue useless to deal with ... I think it really depends on who you get when you call in (like any place I suppose)

    I don't think you can claim anything here off Revenue (payment is from your employer)

    old thread on this here --> https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057705677


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    #7
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Just to update on this.

    I spoke with a colleague who got the full 3.50 per day backdated and they kindly provided me their transcript so I could share it with revenue.

    I shared this and it was ignored - to boot the have calculated that I’m my entitled to only 10% of my electricity bills as opposed to last years 20%, this equates to a whopper 80 euro ... really seems like plucking figures out of the air at this stage.

    I’m going to visit my local revenue office and ask to speak to someone(again).


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    #8
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Just to update on this.

    I spoke with a colleague who got the full 3.50 per day backdated and they kindly provided me their transcript so I could share it with revenue.

    I shared this and it was ignored - to boot the have calculated that I’m my entitled to only 10% of my electricity bills as opposed to last years 20%, this equates to a whopper 80 euro ... really seems like plucking figures out of the air at this stage.

    I’m going to visit my local revenue office and ask to speak to someone(again).


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    #9
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    Just to update on this.

    I spoke with a colleague who got the full 3.50 per day backdated and they kindly provided me their transcript so I could share it with revenue.

    I shared this and it was ignored - to boot the have calculated that I’m my entitled to only 10% of my electricity bills as opposed to last years 20%, this equates to a whopper 80 euro ... really seems like plucking figures out of the air at this stage.

    I’m going to visit my local revenue office and ask to speak to someone(again).

    What has the Revenue got to do with this: is it not paid by the employer?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #10
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    What has the Revenue got to do with this: is it not paid by the employer?

    According to the current online documentation - yes. I have asked for documentation in relation to the calculations, I don’t get any, just a typed out percentage and an assumed apportionment of how much space I use for my home office ( this year it was 10% last year it was 20%), no documentation has been provided to me other than the link I posted at the start of this thread.

    But this does not change the fact that person A claims it and gets 80 euro. Person B claims it gets 3000.


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    #11
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    According to the current online documentation - yes. I have asked for documentation in relation to the calculations, I don’t get any, just a typed out percentage and an assumed apportionment of how much space I use for my home office ( this year it was 10% last year it was 20%), no documentation has been provided to me other than the link I posted at the start of this thread.

    But this does not change the fact that person A claims it and gets 80 euro. Person B claims it gets 3000.

    I don’t understand what you mean when you say “claims it” - what is the IT you have claimed? The €3.50 relates to the amount YOUR EMPLOYER can pay YOU, as a tax free amount, for each day worked at home as an e-worker. That €3.50 @ X days over a year has nothing to do with Revenue, until/unless they come and ask the employer about their payroll operations.

    If you claim €3.50 per day it’s from your employer, and it’s absolutely at their discretion whether they choose to pay you €3.50, nothing, or something in between.

    Separately entirely from that is the matter of the expenses necessarily incurred by you in the performance of your duties - the tax code allows for a deduction for these. I’ve never heard of an employee being allowed a deduction for a % of domestic light/heat against their PAYE income. And it’s absolutely not correct that a person could be allowed to deduct €3.50 @ X days fromtheir income (since, as I’ve explained twice already, that applies only to an amount paid tax free by an employer under a published concession).

    In any event €3.50 x 210-odd working days in a year is less than €750 a year, so I don’t see where you’re getting €3,000 from.


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    #12
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    barneystinson wrote: »
    I don’t understand what you mean when you say “claims it” - what is the IT you have claimed? The €3.50 relates to the amount YOUR EMPLOYER can pay YOU, as a tax free amount, for each day worked at home as an e-worker. That €3.50 @ X days over a year has nothing to do with Revenue, until/unless they come and ask the employer about their payroll operations.

    If you claim €3.50 per day it’s from your employer, and it’s absolutely at their discretion whether they choose to pay you €3.50, nothing, or something in between.

    Separately entirely from that is the matter of the expenses necessarily incurred by you in the performance of your duties - the tax code allows for a deduction for these. I’ve never heard of an employee being allowed a deduction for a % of domestic light/heat against their PAYE income. And it’s absolutely not correct that a person could be allowed to deduct €3.50 @ X days fromtheir income (since, as I’ve explained twice already, that applies only to an amount paid tax free by an employer under a published concession).

    In any event €3.50 x 210-odd working days in a year is less than €750 a year, so I don’t see where you’re getting €3,000 from.


    If you take a read back through the thread you will see where the figures come from.

    ~750 backdated for claimable years. Ie last 4.

    There is uncertainty here in terms of the claims process, yes according to this it’s a payment your employer can make, but it is, or maybe in prior years was something directly claimable through revenue. If it was not claimable why would revenue be entertaining me at all.

    Different people whom I work with are getting different outcomes while claiming this ‘allowance. With the people who where successful with this claim revenue responded saying ‘I have added eWorker relief’ this then is refunded through the p21 balancing statements for the affected years.


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    #13
    relax carry on
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    If you take a read back through the thread you will see where the figures come from.

    ~750 backdated for claimable years. Ie last 4.

    There is uncertainty here in terms of the claims process, yes according to this it’s a payment your employer can make, but it is, or maybe in prior years was something directly claimable through revenue. If it was not claimable why would revenue be entertaining me at all.

    Different people whom I work with are getting different outcomes while claiming this ‘allowance. With the people who where successful with this claim revenue responded saying ‘I have added eWorker relief’ this then is refunded through the p21 balancing statements for the affected years.

    To be honest as Barney has pointed out the 3.20 e working payment is a payment your employer can make to you without you being taxed on it.

    That bit has nothing to do with Revenue and if any of your colleagues have gotten that back from Revenue, that's a failing on Revenues behalf and should be addressed through corrected training in the Service for Compliance areas.

    This does not prevent an employee making a specific expenses claim where the actual expenditure incurred is in excess of this amount. (The 3.20 paid by your employer)

    If your employer pays you nothing and you are a genuine e worker then you can make a claim for portion of your expenses attributable to your work at home which in all probability would probably be agreed at 20% or so.


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    #14
    thomas 123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭thomas 123


    relax carry on wrote: »
    To be honest as Barney has pointed out the 3.20 e working payment is a payment your employer can make to you without you being taxed on it.

    That bit has nothing to do with Revenue and if any of your colleagues have gotten that back from Revenue, that's a failing on Revenues behalf and should be addressed through corrected training in the Service for Compliance areas.

    This does not prevent an employee making a specific expenses claim where the actual expenditure incurred is in excess of this amount. (The 3.20 paid by your employer)

    If your employer pays you nothing and you are a genuine e worker then you can make a claim for portion of your expenses attributable to your work at home which in all probability would probably be agreed at 20% or so.

    Thanks for the help lads. This thread has been great.


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    #15
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    thomas 123 wrote: »
    If you take a read back through the thread you will see where the figures come from.

    ~750 backdated for claimable years. Ie last 4.

    There is uncertainty here in terms of the claims process, yes according to this it’s a payment your employer can make, but it is, or maybe in prior years was something directly claimable through revenue. If it was not claimable why would revenue be entertaining me at all.

    Different people whom I work with are getting different outcomes while claiming this ‘allowance. With the people who where successful with this claim revenue responded saying ‘I have added eWorker relief’ this then is refunded through the p21 balancing statements for the affected years.

    With respect, I think you and your colleagues are causing more confusion for one another because you are assuming that everyone who goes to Revenue with this "claim" should end up with the same result.

    You get the €3.20 payment from your employer without tax deducted. That's all and this has nothing to do with Revenue. Your employer gives this to you and does not deduct tax on it and that's that. Anything you incur after that in terms of expenses from operating at home must be claimed from Revenue as if you were self employed at home, unless your employer decides to reimburse you for the expenses incurred.

    Effectively you are all making a claim for Allowable Expenses Incurred in Employment, as opposed to flat rate expenses which are at a fixed rate depending on your profession. So for the purposes of this, you need to forget about the €3.20. It's not relevant to your claim.
    Depending on how much you are paid, some of you may get these expenses at 40% and some at 20%, because they are treated as a deduction from your total income, rather than a credit.

    Human nature being what it is, some of your colleagues might be a bit conservative about what they will claim as an expense, some will be realistic and some will chance their arm and be more generous to themselves.

    Your colleagues have been getting different amounts because they are all coming up with different expenses when making their submissions to Revenue. This also doesn't take into account that there are other reasons they may be due a refund upon receiving a P21 or NOA, such as claiming credits like health expenses or because their tax was not deducted correctly during the year.

    Also, take my word for this, if you submit someone else's documentation to Revenue and ask why you are not getting the same result, or go into a public office with their P21 or NOA, they won't entertain that. They won't discuss someone else's situation with you, even if it's parallel to your own.

    Here's the relevant Tax and Duty Manual: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-05/05-02-13.pdf


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    #16
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Anyone know how long the 3.20 e-working arrangement has been in place?
    Thanks

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #17
    LizardKing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,592 ✭✭✭LizardKing


    wiggle16 wrote: »
    With respect, I think you and your colleagues are causing more confusion for one another because you are assuming that everyone who goes to Revenue with this "claim" should end up with the same result.

    You get the €3.20 payment from your employer without tax deducted. That's all and this has nothing to do with Revenue. Your employer gives this to you and does not deduct tax on it and that's that. Anything you incur after that in terms of expenses from operating at home must be claimed from Revenue as if you were self employed at home, unless your employer decides to reimburse you for the expenses incurred.

    Effectively you are all making a claim for Allowable Expenses Incurred in Employment, as opposed to flat rate expenses which are at a fixed rate depending on your profession. So for the purposes of this, you need to forget about the €3.20. It's not relevant to your claim.
    Depending on how much you are paid, some of you may get these expenses at 40% and some at 20%, because they are treated as a deduction from your total income, rather than a credit.

    Human nature being what it is, some of your colleagues might be a bit conservative about what they will claim as an expense, some will be realistic and some will chance their arm and be more generous to themselves.

    Your colleagues have been getting different amounts because they are all coming up with different expenses when making their submissions to Revenue. This also doesn't take into account that there are other reasons they may be due a refund upon receiving a P21 or NOA, such as claiming credits like health expenses or because their tax was not deducted correctly during the year.

    Also, take my word for this, if you submit someone else's documentation to Revenue and ask why you are not getting the same result, or go into a public office with their P21 or NOA, they won't entertain that. They won't discuss someone else's situation with you, even if it's parallel to your own.

    Here's the relevant Tax and Duty Manual: https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-05/05-02-13.pdf



    Does anyone know what the practice here is... I get this payment for days worked each quarter. I subtract holidays and include weekends where I am on call.

    I was told by HR that I should be also subtracting public holidays (I could not figure out if that was correct from revenue guidelines)

    Also I have a home office lab with equipment plugged in 24/7 therefore theoretically I have electrical expenses every day. Should I be able to claim then for all 365 days?

    THOUGHTS?

    Anyone know?


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    #18
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    LizardKing wrote: »
    Does anyone know what the practice here is... I get this payment for days worked each quarter. I subtract holidays and include weekends where I am on call.

    I was told by HR that I should be also subtracting public holidays (I could not figure out if that was correct from revenue guidelines)

    Also I have a home office lab with equipment plugged in 24/7 therefore theoretically I have electrical expenses every day. Should I be able to claim then for all 365 days?

    THOUGHTS?

    Anyone know?

    This is a concession. In your case if your employer paid you for 365 days Revenue probably wouldn’t get bent outta shape over it, since there’s a case to be made.

    But what you need to recognise is this is a concession, by Revenue to your employer, AND by your employer to you. They don’t HAVE to give you anything, unless it’s written into your contract of employment. If they’ve got a stated policy, they should apply it consistently. Ask HR to explain the policy (or hand you something in black & white) and then you’ll know how it works and better able to engage with them about it if necessary.


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    #19
    wiggle16
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,022 Mod ✭✭✭✭wiggle16


    With regards the home lab thing, you can apportion the cost of the electricity it uses and claim that as an allowable expense. However, it's important to remember that an "allowable expense" refers to something for which an expense is wholly and necessarily incurred in carrying out the duties of employment - meaning that if you do not have to have the lab thing at home, and have simply opted to have it at home, you should not be claiming for it (though I assume you are required to have it at home).

    As Barney has pointed out, the €3.20 a day is a concession from your employer, which Revenue has allowed in order to incentivise this kind of employment. They don't have to give it to you and if they don't it can't be claimed back from Revenue. It's a tax-free payment, not a tax credit or a relief.

    I'm not being funny or anything but this whole working from home lark sounds like more trouble than it's worth!


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    #20
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    wiggle16 wrote: »
    ...

    I'm not being funny or anything but this whole working from home lark sounds like more trouble than it's worth!

    I'm not being funny or anything but this whole working from home lark sounds like more trouble than it's worth!
    :D

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #21
    padraig.od
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭padraig.od


    I read this thread with interest when it was originally posted. I worked from home, 80% of the week for 6 years but did not receive the €3.20 tax free allowance from my employer. I emailed Revenue last month asking if I could claim some of my household expenses - light, heat, etc. - as Allowable Expenses Incurred in Employment.

    Revenue got back to me today and have asked for a copy of "All receipts for heat, light, electricity etc. which relate to your duties.".

    Unfortunately for me I don't have many hard copy receipts of these expenses and it will be difficult to get them, so I'm trying to determine if the effort to get them will be worth the (potential) tax refund. Does anyone have any knowledge on how Revenue will calculate expenses?

    Say I worked 4 out of 5 days at home and my electricity bill was 1000 for a year.

    Is 4 days per week out of 7 = 57% of the week part of the bill an expense (570) that attracts a 40% credit - so 228? Or since I'm only working 33% of each day (8 hours) am I looking at (228 * 0.33) = 75 refund for electricity for the year?

    Or would I be looking at a smaller refund where Revenue look at the working days in the year, minus personal holidays etc.

    Thanks for any info. I understand that the Revenue officer might look at this on a case-by-case basis. Interested in any experiences people have had and what they have claimed for in the past. Mobile phone, broadband? I used my own personal equipment - laptop, phone, desk etc.


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    #22
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    its not the whole house, just your office, sometimes done by sq metre

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #23
    padraig.od
    Registered Users Posts: 772 ✭✭✭padraig.od


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    its not the whole house, just your office, sometimes done by sq metre

    Ah right, so potentially My 75 quid p/a might be down to 7.50? Hardly seems worth my while if thats the case


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    #24
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    padraig.od wrote: »
    Ah right, so potentially My 75 quid p/a might be down to 7.50? Hardly seems worth my while if thats the case

    I work from home and I just don't bother with this aspect of expenses claiming. I know its there and available etc etc but not just too much paperwork.

    When there is an exception, such as a young lad I advise who develops video games, with very heavy broadband and elec, we got a separate BB account and electrically sub metered the room, which requires very little heating, but we put in a wall mounted storage heater so he can expense exactly what power he is using.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #25
    Delta2113
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭Delta2113


    Revenue should expect a lot more claims for this year due to the current crisis.


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    #26
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    https://www.revenue.ie/en/employing-people/employee-expenses/e-working-and-home-workers/index.aspx

    explains the 3.20 work day allowance for e working at home.
    Can you claim that as an employee of your own company?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #27
    Delta2113
    Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭Delta2113


    Not sure but I think the company does not have to do the €3.20 in which case you then claim online. It would be far simpler if the company did do the €3.20.

    I realize the Government are fairly busy but they could make this a much more simple process and save Revenue a lot off hassle.


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    #28
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,362 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There will be a lot of Government workers who don't normally work from home looking for the €3.20 to cover their fuel and other costs.


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    #29
    relax carry on
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    Just remember the €3.20 is a payment your employer can make tax free to you per day to cover your eworker expenses. If they don't then there is no €3.20 per day to claim back from Revenue. What you can do if your employer chooses not to pay the 3.20 eworker payment, is aportion your utility bills to cover the small element you'll be using to work from home and look for tax relief in that element from Revenue next year.


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    #30
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    relax carry on wrote: »
    Just remember the €3.20 is a payment your employer can make tax free to you per day to cover your eworker expenses. If they don't then there is no €3.20 per day to claim back from Revenue. What you can do if your employer chooses not to pay the 3.20 eworker payment, is aportion your utility bills to cover the small element you'll be using to work from home and look for tax relief in that element from Revenue next year.
    Thanks as always RCO
    just to note its per work day.
    From the link

    You can make a payment of €3.20 per workday to an eWorker employee without deducting:

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #31
    JimmyCorkhill
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭JimmyCorkhill


    Hey Folks

    Just going to jump in with a question or two as well.

    Currently i work from home 2 days a week and receive a payment in my payslip each month for the 8 or so days a month I work from home, usually works out at around €25 or so - it is tax free etc.

    I am now working from home 5 days a week due to the CoronaVirus, so I may look to see if I can get 5 days payments, but the hoops I will have to go through in work to get this sorted nearly puts me off it.

    Just in relation to the tax relief, assuming I was just working from home 2 days a week and getting €25 a month, would I be anyway better off getting tax relief instead on monthly broadband, electricity, heat bills?

    What is an estimated amount in tax relief you would get for a typical month for electricity, heat, broadband?

    Thanks for your help :)


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