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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    Amirani wrote: »
    So it doesn't change things in your use case, but makes it better in many other peoples' use cases and yet you declare it pointless. Great attitude to have...

    I phrased that badly, I meant that the redesign will have little impact as we will still be stuck with the same sh1tty roads, lack of bus lanes and crazy traffic congestion. I’m sure if you asked most people, they would agree that travel time is just as important as frequency, this document I'm reading promises better frequency, but has nothing on travel time.
    What’s the point in having an improved frequency if all the buses are backed up behind each other?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Rooster99


    kerplun k wrote: »
    I phrased that badly, I meant that the redesign will have little impact as we will still be stuck with the same sh1tty roads, lack of bus lanes and crazy traffic congestion. I’m sure if you asked most people, they would agree that travel time is just as important as frequency, this document I'm reading promises better frequency, but has nothing on travel time.
    What’s the point in having an improved frequency if all the buses are backed up behind each other?

    Did you not hear about the bus corridor infrastructure plan a few weeks ago?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    kerplun k wrote: »
    I phrased that badly, I meant that the redesign will have little impact as we will still be stuck with the same sh1tty roads, lack of bus lanes and crazy traffic congestion. I’m sure if you asked most people, they would agree that travel time is just as important as frequency, this document I'm reading promises better frequency, but has nothing on travel time.
    What’s the point in having an improved frequency if all the buses are backed up behind each other?

    What document are you reading ? Because everything I've read is about both frequency and travel time . The infrastructure element should alleviate most of the pinch points for buses


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    kerplun k wrote: »
    I phrased that badly, I meant that the redesign will have little impact as we will still be stuck with the same sh1tty roads, lack of bus lanes and crazy traffic congestion. I’m sure if you asked most people, they would agree that travel time is just as important as frequency, this document I'm reading promises better frequency, but has nothing on travel time.
    What’s the point in having an improved frequency if all the buses are backed up behind each other?

    They're free to think that, but it's not as important in the long term.

    What gets people to adopt public transport is not really speed, it's moreso reliability. Reliability is largely dependent on frequency to provide a positive impression.

    So to increase public transport adoption, you need greater reliability (and other things too, but reliability is one of the most important). And for more reliability, you need better frequency.

    Once you have better reliability, you'll transfer more drivers onto your public transport system, and you'll then be able to also increase speeds.

    In short - you don't get people to leave their cars at home by offering a journey that's 20 minutes quicker, you get them to leave their cars at home by offering a service where they can just rock up and know that a bus will be along in less than 10 minutes*.

    And you can't improve bus journey times in Dublin without getting people to leave their cars at home.

    *As an aside, this is borne out in how popular Luas is as a transport mode, even though it's quite slow through the city centre.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    Meh, far too many interchanges, unnecessarily complicated and whole routes now that run perfectly well are broken up with different frequencies.

    There's going to be a whole lot of sitting at interchanges in our futures.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭drake70


    loyatemu wrote: »
    I note still nothing for the Southern Cross Rd in Bray - I presume this is because Finnegan's have the contract but I'm sure the local residents would rather it was part of the main network.

    I saw that as well. Currently served by the 84X.

    I currently get this bus from the first stop in the city centre to the second last stop. Having to switch bus during the journey will put me back on the train.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    I'm a bit split on the decisions. I'm based in Clondalkin. What I can take from it
    - The D3 ditches long winding routes around clondalkin and avoids bluebell now. It seems its somewhat intertwined with the existing 151 and 13 routes. This is good. 13 route is some seriously horrendous stuff.
    - 255 feeds to Luas. If I want to get to Docklands I think the only option is this feeder route. Conflicted but I guess it makes sense. The 151 is almost empty by the time it reaches east of O'Connell St anyway.
    - W4 gets me to Blanch SC easily. W2 (existing 76 what I see) gets me to Liffey SC easily (quicker than before I would guess as the D3 is shorter). This is good.
    - The original proposed orbital which could get me from Clondalkin to Dundrum SC is ditched. There's no easy way for me to get here, or any areas south east of me, without going into the city centre.
    - 51D is completely gone. Which is an amazingly fast commuter bus. Very sad.

    Only thing that concerns me is the lack of frequency between some interchanges. Could be a misery sitting and waiting 20/30 mins and a total turnoff.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    dfx- wrote: »
    Meh, far too many interchanges, unnecessarily complicated and whole routes now that run perfectly well are broken up with different frequencies.

    There's going to be a whole lot of sitting at interchanges in our futures.

    3 is the maximum number of interchanges for some very odd routes. I'd rather sit for about 5 minutes at a interchange "station" than wait 40 minutes a stop for a bus the may never come.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    - The original proposed orbital which could get me from Clondalkin to Dundrum SC is ditched. There's no easy way for me to get here, or any areas south east of me, without going into the city centre.

    W2 to Tallaght . S6/7 to Dundrum


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    W2 to Tallaght . S6/7 to Dundrum

    I'm not based in Clondalkin Village. It will take me more than 2 hops to get to Dundrum. Originally is was none or 1. The service would have to be super reliable for me to jump on board a 2 transfer hop.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    I'm not based in Clondalkin Village. It will take me more than 2 hops to get to Dundrum. Originally is was none or 1. The service would have to be super reliable for me to jump on board a 2 transfer hop.

    The entire concept is based on reliability and transfers if they get this wrong you can forget about the whole project.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    3 is the maximum number of interchanges for some very odd routes. I'd rather sit for about 5 minutes at a interchange "station" than wait 40 minutes a stop for a bus the may never come.

    5 minutes:pac:

    In our future, a tourist asks how do you get to x? "Well you get route C to this roundabout and then you wait for route c2 and then you get off there at this pub and get route C245 and catch route D461, walk to the third bus stop at the interchange and get route 516 which operates at a much less frequency and is unreliable so bring a book, preferably Ulysses."

    or

    "Sure hop on the (actual) 10 minute 27 round the corner."


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭sharper


    dfx- wrote: »
    Meh, far too many interchanges, unnecessarily complicated and whole routes now that run perfectly well are broken up with different frequencies.

    There's going to be a whole lot of sitting at interchanges in our futures.

    Did you check the peak services as well as the all-day services? For example the 66x currently goes from Maynooth to UCD which would mean some people might need 2-3 changes on the all day service however the old route is mostly retained in the peak listing.

    The hand off from 6-7 minute frequency routes to 20-30 minute routes is a bit worrying. You can easily imagine the frustration of arriving just as the bus you want is leaving and then the next bus not showing up at all so you spend an hour waiting when you were relatively close to getting to your destination.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,368 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    What document are you reading ? Because everything I've read is about both frequency and travel time . The infrastructure element should alleviate most of the pinch points for buses

    I was reading chapters 1-7. Chapter 2 is about frequency and why it's important, this was also echoed by MJohnston, and some very good points are made on why frequency is important.
    This is the first document I’ve read on the bus revamp, and I’m reading very little on how they plan on solving the infrastructure problem. Maybe I missed it in one of the Chapters, but the document seems to be emphasizing on frequency, which I agree is important for getting bums on PT seats, but for me, journey time is equally as important.
    I don’t mean to complain about this plan or anything, but just from my own perspective, I lived in Citywest for a time, and would travel to Heuston on the Luas daily, eventually I gave it up because the journey took too long, and drove instead, same as when I travel to City centre, I drive rather than take the bus, because the journey time takes too long.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    - The original proposed orbital which could get me from Clondalkin to Dundrum

    Only thing that concerns me is the lack of frequency between some interchanges. Could be a misery sitting and waiting 20/30 mins and a total turnoff.

    W2 to Tallaght and change for an S6/S7 to Dundrum? W2 is high frequency and presumably the combination of S6/S7 will be reasonably good frequency?

    Option from West Clondalkin could be D3, O and then either A3 or Luas. Again, frequency would be key here.

    I think Clondalkin could be a better interchange than it is, but once you get to Tallaght you have loads of options for South East?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    dfx- wrote: »
    5 minutes:pac:

    In our future, a tourist asks how do you get to x? "Well you get route C to this roundabout and then you wait for route c2 and then you get off there at this pub and get route C245 and catch route D461, walk to the third bus stop at the interchange and get route 516 which operates at a much less frequency and is unreliable so bring a book, preferably Ulysses."

    or

    "Sure hop on the (actual) 10 minute 27 round the corner."


    You're focusing on one particular route. You should not be.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost


    Amirani wrote: »
    W2 to Tallaght and change for an S6/S7 to Dundrum? W2 is high frequency and presumably the combination of S6/S7 will be reasonably good frequency?

    I think Clondalkin could be a better interchange than it is, but once you get to Tallaght you have loads of options for South East?

    Again I don't live in Clondalkin Village. It means more than 1 transfer to get anywhere other than CC/Liffey SC/Blanch SC/Tallaght Square


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭Heartbreak Hank


    No through routes through College Green - they seem to be planning for the plaza.


  • Registered Users Posts: 955 ✭✭✭site_owner


    The howth interconnects 290/291 is going to use a non existent road and drop people 1km from clongriffin dart station.

    Even when the road exists (2025?) A drop off on on one side of clongriffin station is no fun. It's second only to howth junction in fortress like layout


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    MJohnston wrote: »
    You're focusing on one particular route. You should not be.

    I'm applying it to destination x, not any one route.

    This is also being implemented by the NTA who despite drawing it up will have no responsibility for it at all.

    In the sunshine in July, it looks a different prospect to be stepping off a 30 minute frequency route and waiting on a 60 minute frequency route in November at 9.30pm in the suburbs when the NTA and the minister are at home in front of the fire looking at their map.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭n!ghtmancometh


    Overly complicated and too many interchanges. They've managed to make Clondalkin's already shoddy service worse too somehow, quite the feat. How you can justify an area with that population and no other alternatives to bus not having a direct route to the city is beyond me.

    I'd also love to see where they plan on squeezing in stops for the feeder routes at red cow luas too. It can barely cope with the private coaches as is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Overly complicated and too many interchanges. They've managed to make Clondalkin's already shoddy service worse too somehow, quite the feat. How you can justify an area with that population and no other alternatives to bus not having a direct route to the city is beyond me.

    I'd also love to see where they plan on squeezing in stops for the feeder routes at red cow luas too. It can barely cope with the private coaches as is.

    The D3 route is direct to the city. Do you mean to say "How can my little corner of Clondakin not have a direct route to the city?"


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    dfx- wrote: »
    I'm applying it to destination x, not any one route.

    This is also being implemented by the NTA who despite drawing it up will have no responsibility for it at all.

    In the sunshine in July, it looks a different prospect to be stepping off a 30 minute frequency route and waiting on a 60 minute frequency route in November at 9.30pm in the suburbs when the NTA and the minister are at home in front of the fire looking at their map.

    Can you give one tangible example of a journey with a 90 frequency , that has a better frequency under the current model?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    G_R wrote: »
    sharper wrote: »
    Frequency on the main corridors is supposed to be 6-7.5 minutes. I don't know what the average dwell time at each stop is but I can easily see busses bunched up together after 5 stops as they're held up. Further down the road you'll be waiting 25 minutes with nothing happening and then 5 busses will pass by.

    Hopefully 95% of journeys won't require driver interaction if they are moving to a flat fare system. Stick a second validator on the other side on the way in and make them faster, and actually enforce people using middle doors to disembark, and you're well on your way to reducing dwell times at stops.
    Dublin Bus could get their drivers to actually open the middle doors. I've lost count of the amount of times I've stood at the middle doors waiting to disembark and the driver only opens the front door and makes you get off that way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,409 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Carpenterstown and Castleknock seem to have a pretty significant drop in service as well. I think they chose their time analysis maps very well to avoid showing the bad areas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    3 is the maximum number of interchanges for some very odd routes. I'd rather sit for about 5 minutes at a interchange "station" than wait 40 minutes a stop for a bus the may never come.

    You may get the best of both worlds dublin bus stylee, waiting at an interchange station for 40 minutes for a bus that may never come :D

    I wouldnt be crazy about the interchange system if it was around the last bus time that's for sure


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 17,129 Mod ✭✭✭✭cherryghost




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,565 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    drake70 wrote: »
    I saw that as well. Currently served by the 84X.

    I currently get this bus from the first stop in the city centre to the second last stop. Having to switch bus during the journey will put me back on the train.

    the 84X is unchanged apart from the number (it becomes 301 in the plan). It was the lack of a local service for Southern Cross I was referring to as the Finnegans route doesn't seem to be considered part of the wider network.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub



    I assume you're looking at page 7? How is that degraded?


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