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Archaeoastronomy at megalithic sites

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Coles


    Great link. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Can anybody confirm if Pre-session has been factored into the age of most Irish sites that involve Sun/Moon worship?

    Bit of a noob question i know but still had to ask it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Can anybody confirm if Pre-session has been factored into the age of most Irish sites that involve Sun/Moon worship?

    Bit of a noob question i know but still had to ask it.

    No it doesn't(I'm open to correction) - precession only affects the star constellations that rise and set in the "sights" of a monument such as Newgrange. The sun and moon pretty much are in the same positions. I'm not an astronomer though. I've just got a book which is basically "Alexander Thom for Dummies" and it is still proving difficult.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Surely if the Earths axis wobbles by as much as 2degrees then it must affect the marking positions of both the Sun and the Moon?

    Graham Hancock makes a big deal of this in his books.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    how about this:

    The Rolling Sun of Boheh
    There is a pilgrimage route running from Ballintober Abbey to the summit of Croagh Patrick. It probably extends back east to Rathcroghan, the palace of Queen Maeve, the Iron Age ruler of Connaught. Westport researcher Gerry Bracken was cataloging monuments in the Westport area when he came across an unusual site, known as St Patrick's Chair, or the Boheh Stone which is located on the pilgrimage trail south east of Croagh Patrick. The sequence of photos below was taken in 2000. At the bottom of the page is a more up to date image by Ken Williams.

    This monument is covered in cup and ring marks, and turns out to be the only known example in Connaught, as well as one of the finest examples in Ireland. Gerry discovered that on two days in the year, the setting sun, when viewed from this spot, touches the summit of the Mountain, then proceeds to 'roll' down the northern slope. The angle of the Mountain's side matches the declination (setting angle) of the sun at this time and place.

    http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/gifs/RollingSun.gif

    http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/reek2.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Surely if the Earths axis wobbles by as much as 2degrees then it must affect the marking positions of both the Sun and the Moon?

    Graham Hancock makes a big deal of this in his books.

    In fairness I think most of Graham Hancocks books deal with the setting / rising of stars. Leo over the Sphinx that kind of thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79



    Thanks Dublinviking - I was lucky enough to see this back in 2007 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-cBNdQY80.

    Obviously Kens video is much better!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    If I remember correctly is his theory not more oriented around the Precession of the Equinoxes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    If I remember correctly is his theory not more oriented around the Precession of the Equinoxes?

    I haven't read his books in years - so I'm not sure. Like I said I'm not an astronomer I'm afraid. Just interested in it and with a very basic knowledge.

    I guess it also depends on whether you think alignments are high precision or symbolic in accuracy.

    This might be of interest for precision alignments http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/chronicle/8604.shtml


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    I think the Precession thing, like I asked initially is more relevant to the positioning or orientation of things like the light-box at Newgrange.

    There are many other monuments around the world with what appear to be light boxes, but do not align with the sun or moons current position.
    This is where Precession may be used to date monuments.

    Not the best description I am making here, but basically if the position of either the sun or the moon has moved by the currently calculated amount, then quite a few of these other monuments would align, therefor the monuments may be much older than previously claimed.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I think the Precession thing, like I asked initially is more relevant to the positioning or orientation of things like the light-box at Newgrange.

    There are many other monuments around the world with what appear to be light boxes, but do not align with the sun or moons current position.
    This is where Precession may be used to date monuments.

    Not the best description I am making here, but basically if the position of either the sun or the moon has moved by the currently calculated amount, then quite a few of these other monuments would align, therefor the monuments may be much older than previously claimed.

    I'm not sure about that cfuserkildare - as far as I can make out precession doesn't affect things that much. For example if it did - then the light affect at Newgrange wouldn't work at all. Like I said - I'm no astronomer. Perhaps we should ask the astronomy section on here and see what they think.

    Actually I just searched and this was their thoughts on it.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71210399


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Quote from Wikipedia

    "Axial precession is the movement of the rotational axis of an astronomical body, whereby the axis slowly traces out a cone. In the case of Earth, this type of precession is also known as the precession of the equinoxes, lunisolar precession, or precession of the equator. Earth goes through one such complete precessional cycle in a period of approximately 26,000 years or 1° every 72 years, during which the positions of stars will slowly change in both equatorial coordinates and ecliptic longitude. Over this cycle, Earth's north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1° of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of about 23.5 degrees."

    So from what I can figure, there must be some consequence surely?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Quote " Not to objects within the solar system.
    ie. the sun. "

    If the Earth wobbles on its own axis, how does the relative position of the Sun not change?


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Quote " Not to objects within the solar system.
    ie. the sun. "

    If the Earth wobbles on its own axis, how does the relative position of the Sun not change?

    http://www.stonepages.com/forum/index.php?/topic/33-azimuth-and-the-precession-of-the-equinox/


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    Maybe this page can give you some potential answers or at least something to think about.
    The vast majority of observable stars are binary or multiple star systems. In these systems, two or more stars share a common focus of revolution and are gravitationally bound to each other in defined orbits. This is such a common observation such that the gravitational interaction of multiple stars appears to be the "normal" mode of stellar system formation...

    ...Is the idea of a solar companion to our Sun unprecedented? Not at all, in fact there have been numerous scientific publications examining the evidence for a "dark star", literally speaking, to which our Sun could be gravitationally bound in a definite orbit [3]. This alternate dark star is known as Nemesis, and its proposition comes primarily from observed perturbations of orbiting objects such as the planet-sized Kuiper belt object named Sedna [4]...

    ...Walter Cruttenden of the Binary Star research institute has propounded that a solar companion need not necessarily be of the "dark star" variety. Given the paucity of empirical observations and measurements of the movement of many of the bright stars within our own local galactic sector, it is with some justification that visible stars be examined to see if any may share a common focal point with our own Solar System [5]. At the heart of the poly-solar system theory is a simplification of the mechanics of constellation precession (precession observable) with a more logical model, one that does not rely on a putative wobble of the Earth but instead explains the precession observable with the movement of the Solar System itself...

    ...Is there a candidate for binary revolution among the visible stars? Logically we could begin with the closest star to our own, which is Alpha Centauri. At a distance of 4.37 light years, it is the third brightest star and, as is common, it is itself a binary system.

    Another star that shows evidence of being gravitationally bound within the system and is called Alpha Proxima. Alpha Proxima is 0.2 light years from Alpha Centauri AB, about 400 times the distance of Neptune's orbit from the Sun. This shows that a dual or poly star system does not have to necessarily be in close orbital interaction. However Alpha Centauri lies at a declination of -60°, which is well out of the plane of the Solar System, and as such, has a near circumpolar motion in the sky.

    A more suitable candidate would be a star closer to the plane of the Solar System, or celestial equator. Sirius meets this criteria, at a declination of -17°. It is also the brightest star in the night sky, three times brighter than Alpha Centauri and twice as bright as the next brightest star Canopus. Sirius is also the 5th closest system of stars to our own [6]. More significant is the fact that The Sirius Research Group has been recording the position of Sirius for approximately 20 years now and has not recorded any measurable alteration in its location relative to the precession [7]....

    sirius555.gif

    http://www.viewzone.com/sirius.html

    Have fun :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    bawn79 wrote: »

    According to the source the Solstice actually occurred 3 weeks off ie 10th of July not 21st of June as it is now, that would appear to me to be a classic example of the effects of Precession.
    No?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    According to the source the Solstice actually occurred 3 weeks off ie 10th of July not 21st of June as it is now, that would appear to me to be a classic example of the effects of Precession.
    No?

    No. :)

    This is because of the imprecision of the sun - moon calendar which is shorter then the solar year, which means that solstice will slip through time. This was the main reason why so many stones are aligned to the sun, because solstice did not fall on the same day and needed to be confirmed every year by observation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,573 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Actually,

    The calendar which was used would have been quite accurate,

    There are 13 moons in a year, which means that the ancients would have been able to plot the movement of both Sun and Moon with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

    Also what you just stated sounds very much like Precession.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    13X28=364 < 365,25...

    every year you loose one day and solstice is one day later....
    Arithmetic and astronomical calendars

    An astronomical calendar is based on ongoing observation; examples are the religious Islamic calendar and the old religious Jewish calendar in the time of the Second Temple. Such a calendar is also referred to as an observation-based calendar. The advantage of such a calendar is that it is perfectly and perpetually accurate. The disadvantage is that working out when a particular date would occur is difficult.
    An arithmetic calendar is one that is based on a strict set of rules; an example is the current Jewish calendar. Such a calendar is also referred to as a rule-based calendar. The advantage of such a calendar is the ease of calculating when a particular date occurs. The disadvantage is imperfect accuracy. Furthermore, even if the calendar is very accurate, its accuracy diminishes slowly over time, owing to changes in Earth's rotation. This limits the lifetime of an accurate arithmetic calendar to a few thousand years. After then, the rules would need to be modified from observations made since the invention of the calendar.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar


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  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.
    I hope to pay a visit to Boleycarrigeen on the day, weather permitting.
    I'm also quite interested in the possibility of a lunar rise there and its relationship to nearby monuments.
    Any thoughts?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.

    These lists are great, dead handy! Thanks for sharing :) I think Slieve Gullion should be in the sunset list though rather than sunrise, if I'm reading them correctly!


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    These lists are great, dead handy! Thanks for sharing :) I think Slieve Gullion should be in the sunset list though rather than sunrise, if I'm reading them correctly!

    Bugger it is sunset alright. As long as no treks up there for sunrise I should be ok. I'll change it going forward. Thanks Cian


  • Registered Users Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    slowburner wrote: »
    I hope to pay a visit to Boleycarrigeen on the day, weather permitting.
    I'm also quite interested in the possibility of a lunar rise there and its relationship to nearby monuments.
    Any thoughts?

    Well to be honest, it looks to be that the only way to figure out lunar alignments is to do a survey onsite and see if the declination is in and around the magic numbers for the major and minor lunar standstills. I'm not going to pretend that I'd be able to carry out a survey like that or that I fully understand how it works.
    What you might be able to do is download the sun-surveyor app for a smartphone. With it you can check where moon rises and sets for a specific time and date. From what I understand the next lunar minor standstill is in 2015 but that there are a number of dates around it that it may be observable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,922 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Just a thought there are some Stargazing programs out there like starry night and stellarium that allow you to put in a date and see what the night sky looks like. If you have the direction eg N S E W could work out roughly whats about etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    the question no one seem to be asking is how did people determine that today is the longest day? Or shortest? And not yesterday...Everyone seem to take that as being given and all we have to do is get few stones and mark the place where sun is rising or setting on that day.

    Any ideas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    tracking the change of the moon is easy. This is why all the first calendars were moon based.

    8000 years old lunar calendar (first pocket calendar) found in Serbia.

    rep-Medvednjak-figura_620x0.jpg

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2511828/Could-worlds-oldest-pocket-calendar-Engraved-tusk-told-farmers-harvest-crops-8-000-years-ago.html

    Scottish lunar calendar, 10,000 years old:

    ku-xlarge.png

    http://gizmodo.com/archaeologists-discover-worlds-oldest-calendar-in-scot-922374641


    Not all calendars use the solar year as a unit. A lunar calendar is one in which days are numbered within each lunar phase cycle. Because the length of the lunar month is not an even fraction of the length of the tropical year, a purely lunar calendar quickly drifts against the seasons, which don't vary much near the equator. It does, however, stay constant with respect to other phenomena, notably tides. An example is the Islamic calendar. Alexander Marshack, in a controversial reading,[3] believed that marks on a bone baton (c. 25,000 BC) represented a lunar calendar. Other marked bones may also represent lunar calendars. Similarly, Michael Rappenglueck believes that marks on a 15,000-year old cave painting represent a lunar calendar.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    The solstice is easy enough to determine to within a day or two, you just watch the sunrise or sunset position along the horizon and record the exact spot where it seems to stop moving in one direction, pause for a few days and then start moving in the opposite direction. It's just the extreme positions of the sun along the horizon. Determining the exact day is pretty hard by observing with the naked eye but if you count days carefully it can be determined. The real question is whether they were interested in such extreme precision, since there's a period of five or six days when the sun seems not to change position then getting a 'solstice' alignment that works is the easiest thing in the world to anyone interested in the movements of the sun.

    EDIT: I'd be a bit skeptical of that Scottish 'lunar calendar'!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    true.
    Stand somewhere that you have a clear view of the eastern horizon
    Every day when the sun comes up, mark the point in the direction of where you see it.
    The furthest point north will be the longest day of the year (in the northern hemisphere). It'll be back to the same point the next year on the longest day.

    So once you determine the two extremes, or just one, the winter one for instance, you use lunar change to measure the time between. But because the lunar cycle is shorter than the calendar year, you will need to adjust it every year by determining the solstice. But if you already know the length of the lunar cycle (28 - 30 days, depending on precision), you can start marking the lunar months on the line representing two sun opposites. So you end up with composite solar lunar calendar. It starts at winter solstice, then you have one stone per 28 (or 30 depends how precise you are) days month. This gives you 12 or 13 months and "extra" days, known as "dead days" in Serbia or "mratinci". In Serbia these are 7 extra days that you have left after 12 lunar months of 29 days each. These are taboo days. Then From winter solstice, the lunar cycle starts again. Serbian sun god dies on the 25th of December and resurrects on the 1st of January. But originally there were 10 dead days.
    The average calendrical month, which is 1⁄12 of a year, is about 30.44 days, while the Moon's phase (synodic) cycle repeats on average every 29.53 days.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase

    Winter solstice 21 of December. 355th day of the year. 355/12 = 29.58333333333333

    the rest are 10 "dead days". The days between the end of the year and beginning of the new year.


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