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Search of customers bag

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  • 11-06-2019 11:08pm
    #1
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users Posts: 3,918 ✭✭✭


    Something I witnessed today. Woman walked out a store here and a member of staff came out and grabbed her bag from behind and searched it. There was only items of clothing from what i could see (it’s a homewares store that doesn’t sell any form of clothing) and he walked back in to the store immediately after searching it. When he grabbed the bag she tried pulling away preventing him from searching and he restrained her whilst searching the bag. Uniformed staff member and not a security guard.

    Doesn’t this constitute a form of assault and false imprisonment? Other than AGS, he’d have no powers of search. Let’s say Gardaí were called by the lady, what charges if any would this member of staff potentially face?


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    #2
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    Grab All Association wrote: »
    Something I witnessed today. Woman walked out a store here and a member of staff came out and grabbed her bag from behind and searched it. There was only items of clothing from what i could see (it’s a homewares store that doesn’t sell any form of clothing) and he walked back in to the store immediately after searching it. When he grabbed the bag she tried pulling away preventing him from searching and he restrained her whilst searching the bag. Uniformed staff member and not a security guard.

    Doesn’t this constitute a form of assault and false imprisonment? Other than AGS, he’d have no powers of search. Let’s say Gardaí were called by the lady, what charges if any would this member of staff potentially face?

    Yes that would be against the law and could probably bring a case.

    Ive been asked by security before if they could check my bag. But they always asked for permission. If i said no then they could ask me to stay and call the police.

    They cant force a search but they can detain you if they have some evidence that you may have stolen something. eg Security footage.


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    #3
    vargoo
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭vargoo


    That woman could clean up!

    Badly trained staff.


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    #4
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    BrokenArrows wrote: »
    Ive been asked by security before if they could check my bag. But they always asked for permission. If i said no then they could ask me to stay and call the police.

    They cant force a search but they can detain you if they have some evidence that you may have stolen something. eg Security footage.

    Hmm what's the legislation that provides for detention even if there is evidence of theft?

    I would have thought that even in the cases of detention it's at the acquiescence of the detainee otherwise it would seem to be false imprisonment? i.e. the security guard can ask you to stay but can't force you to do so.

    Same situation with bus/luas etc. fare dodging/theft - I thought the security cannot legally detain you even if you clearly do not have a ticket - they can call the gardaí if you're uncooperative but I didn't think they could physically bind you in place.


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    #5
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,100 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Once you walk out of the shop they can catch you and detain you inside without excessive force until the guards arrive. You need to have left the shop and you need to be 100% they've taken something or you'll end up in court.


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    #6
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭source


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    Hmm what's the legislation that provides for detention even if there is evidence of theft?

    I would have thought that even in the cases of detention it's at the acquiescence of the detainee otherwise it would seem to be false imprisonment? i.e. the security guard can ask you to stay but can't force you to do so.

    Same situation with bus/luas etc. fare dodging/theft - I thought the security cannot legally detain you even if you clearly do not have a ticket - they can call the gardaí if you're uncooperative but I didn't think they could physically bind you in place.

    Theft is an arrestable offence, so Section 4 Criminal Law Act 1997 applies:
    4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.

    (2) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), where an arrestable offence has been committed, any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

    (3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána, with reasonable cause, suspects that an arrestable offence has been committed, he or she may arrest without warrant anyone whom the member, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.

    (4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána.

    (5) A person who is arrested pursuant to this section by a person other than a member of the Garda Síochána shall be transferred into the custody of the Garda Síochána as soon as practicable.

    (6) This section shall not affect the operation of any enactment restricting the institution of proceedings for an offence or prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law apart from this section.

    An “arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;

    Theft carries a sentence of up to 10 years on indictment, obviously dependent on the severity of the act carried out.


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    #7
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    source wrote: »
    An “arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;

    Theft carries a sentence of up to 10 years on indictment, obviously dependent on the severity of the act carried out.

    +1, and to note "may" is important. It covers the maximum potential sentence allowed by statute (and also covers the common law), not the likely or usual sentence.


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    #8
    Thirdfox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,110 ✭✭✭Thirdfox


    Thanks - good to know that "citizen's arrest" works in this case.

    And because I'm a bit lazy (and hoping that you have the reference to hand) - the legal definition of arrest does include detention right? Never looked it up (or had cause to :D )


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    #9
    source
    Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭source


    Thirdfox wrote: »
    Thanks - good to know that "citizen's arrest" works in this case.

    And because I'm a bit lazy (and hoping that you have the reference to hand) - the legal definition of arrest does include detention right? Never looked it up (or had cause to :D )

    Covered under Subsection 5 in the quoted Section. You have to hand the arrested person over to Gardai as soon as is practicable, so if you catch someone shoplifting, you have to hold them until the Gardai arrive at which point they take them into custody and begin their investigation.

    While it would be common to say they were detained, a detention has a very specific meaning within criminal law. The person arresting shoplifter would not be detaining them, simply holding them until the Gardai arrive to take custody of the arrested person.


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    #10
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    source wrote: »
    Theft is an arrestable offence, so Section 4 Criminal Law Act 1997 applies:



    An “arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;

    Theft carries a sentence of up to 10 years on indictment, obviously dependent on the severity of the act carried out.

    Oddly assault is also an arrestable offense and a improper attempt to apply the the section 4 criminal law act 1997 can well look like assault.

    Could well be just a funny story but I was once told of an incident where by ags was called to a shop. A customer claimed he was grabbed and assaulted by two staff members who he subdued and he told the Gardai he had arrested them under section 4 criminal law act 1997 and as such was handing them over to the Garda. The two staff members claimed that the customer had stolen from the shop and they were attempting to arrest him when he resisted.


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    #11
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,148 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Oddly assault is also an arrestable offense and a improper attempt to apply the the section 4 criminal law act 1997 can well look like assault.

    Could well be just a funny story but I was once told of an incident where by ags was called to a shop. A customer claimed he was grabbed and assaulted by two staff members who he subdued and he told the Gardai he had arrested them under section 4 criminal law act 1997 and as such was handing them over to the Garda. The two staff members claimed that the customer had stolen from the shop and they were attempting to arrest him when he resisted.

    assault (sect 2) is not an arrestable offence. Assault causing harm (sect 3) is though


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    #12
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    assault (sect 2) is not an arrestable offence. Assault causing harm (sect 3) is though

    what do they define as harm.




    if someone catches your arm and pulls you back is that harm (probably not but could potentially cause harm) , what happens when i treat it as assault an defend myself . in my view the person assaulting me is threatening my life and im not going to give them a chance to do that.


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    #13
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,148 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    the_pen_turner wrote: »
    what do they define as harm.




    if someone catches your arm and pulls you back is that harm (probably not but could potentially cause harm) , what happens when i treat it as assault an defend myself . in my view the person assaulting me is threatening my life and im not going to give them a chance to do that.

    your response needs to be proportiionate. no reasonable person would think that a security guard asking to search their bag is a threat to their life.


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    #14
    the_pen_turner
    Registered Users Posts: 7,505 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    your response needs to be proportiionate. no reasonable person would think that a security guard asking to search their bag is a threat to their life.

    i know you cant beat 7 layers of sh1te of them. also this isnt about a security guard asking anything, its about grabbing the acused and stopping them

    but if you are walking out and someone grabs you from behind you wont know who or what they are. sometimes its not stupidly obvious that someone is security unless its actually written on their uniform

    someone grabs you your first reaction is to pull away and get free from their grip, your not examining their aperance for signs they are security. my first reaction would be that some scumbag is attacking me. most people wold assume that a scumbag attacking you could be carrying a knife or needle etc. i would treat someone attacking me unprovoked and unexpected like from behind to be a potential threat to my life until its obvious its not.


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    #15
    DoozerT6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭DoozerT6


    My first response on reading the OP was that this woman was a 'frequent flyer' so to speak, probably shoplifts from this place regularly, they know her well, watch her like a hawk, and this exact scenario has happened before.

    That's just my initial reaction. I could be very wrong. In that case, the security guard should have approached her from the front and asked to see her bag.


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    #16
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    DoozerT6 wrote: »
    My first response on reading the OP was that this woman was a 'frequent flyer' so to speak, probably shoplifts from this place regularly, they know her well, watch her like a hawk, and this exact scenario has happened before.

    That's just my initial reaction. I could be very wrong. In that case, the security guard should have approached her from the front and asked to see her bag.

    Agree that there is more to this than meets the eye


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