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HKC VS Siemens App Discussion Stickey Temp

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Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    If you use another path the Siemens SPC will be able to notify of network failures.
    It is on the cards for a later update.
    It's also fair to state GSD does give alerts of comms fails and smash and grap alerts. There is no charges there either.
    I'm not saying Siemens is perfect for every application either. No panel is either. But most manufacturers are offering free apps and free alerts etc. Including polling. HKC and PW are the only ones I know that don't offer free app and use.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    If you use another path the Siemens SPC will be able to notify of network failures.
    It is on the cards for a later update.
    It's also fair to state GSD does give alerts of comms fails and smash and grap alerts.

    It does, but these alerts are not given to the end user so you are not comparing like with like.

    However the HKC does a handshake every few minutes making it far more secure.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I think you are confusing polling and notifications. If you are comparing polling, the new Spc panels can be set to poll every few seconds if more secure is what you want . The alerts can then be sent down multiple ATS paths as well as to monitoring stations or any other comms method you want.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I think you are confusing polling and notifications. If you are comparing polling, the new Spc panels can be set to poll every few seconds if more secure is what you want . The alerts can then be sent down multiple ATS paths as well as to monitoring stations or any other comms method you want.

    Yes only if the comm path is available . if all your paths fail then will you be notified on the Siemens like you would with HKC?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Only if you are using external monitoring. That feature is available on the GSD systems along with their smash and grab alerts at no cost to the customer.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    Yes only if the comm path is available . if all your paths fail then will you be notified on the Siemens like you would with HKC?

    Exactly, my information is that you won't.
    This is where the HKC has the edge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    KoolKid wrote: »
    Only if you are using external monitoring.





    So the end user won't be notified unless they opt for external monitoring. Is this a free service ??


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    The HKC will only give you that notification if you pay their subscription.
    The Siemens will do the same if you use another third party form of monitoring.
    The only difference I see is who you pay.
    The benefits I see is Siemens and the other systems let you use the app and remote access without paying. Also that Risco and Siemens give you access from any web browser should you have no data connection on your phone or tablet.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I think you are confusing polling and notifications.

    My understanding is that the HKC polls a server that is external to the premises that is being protected by the alarm system. In the event that the panel goes down the end user will receive a notification via the APP. Is that correct, or am I missing something?

    I ma also led to believe that the Siemens panel has an internal server. In the event of the panel going down the end user is not notified. They will only know if they open the APP and can't connect. Is this correct?

    Let's flesh this out:
    I want an alarm system to notify me when it is down without me having to "ask it" by opening the APP.
    The HKC will do this at a cost, will the Siemens do this for free?
    If you are comparing polling, the new Spc panels can be set to poll every few seconds if more secure is what you want

    So are you saying that this will this generate a notification to the end user automatically just like the HKC does but at no cost?

    The alerts can then be sent down multiple ATS paths as well as to monitoring stations or any other comms method you want.

    Just to be clear on a public forum: ATS is Alarm Transmission System?

    This may well be true but no monitoring station will give you this alert for €4.99 a month or am I missing something?
    It's also fair to state GSD does give alerts of comms fails and smash and grap alerts.

    Perhaps, but I am comparing HKC to Siemens and making the point that the differences are so minor that we are splitting hairs. The GSD is a completely different panel.
    The only difference I see is who you pay.

    This is exactly my point, the HKC and Siemens panels are pretty much identical in terms of what they can offer the end user. The HKC has a slight edge in my opinion because it offers a few more handy features such as wire free sensors.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    2011 wrote: »

    I ma also led to believe that the Siemens panel has an internal server. In the event of the panel going down the end user is not notified. They

    Not entirely. Like HKC it is a cloud service that connects via SPC Connect.
    The panel is constantly polling this server based on the settings of each individual ATS. Multiple ATS can be set up where the panel can report to . This can be a monitoring station or any other server. In theory you could probably set something up yourself to an IP address.
    The benefit with Siemens here is Siemens also allows you to connect directly to your panels own web server as well. So even if the cloud service goes down you can connect directly to your panel as well.
    2011 wrote: »
    Let's flesh this out:
    I want an alarm system to notify me when it is down without me having to "ask it" by opening the APP.
    The HKC will do this at a cost, will the Siemens do this for free?
    It will do it for free via another path or it could be set up an a paid service in any number of ways via either another ATS or via any number of GSM options. We have researched international SIM charges and it could well be set up in a number of ways for cheaper than €4.99 per month.
    2011 wrote: »

    So are you saying that this will this generate a notification to the end user automatically just like the HKC does but at no cost?
    As above
    2011 wrote: »


    Just to be clear on a public forum: ATS is Alarm Transmission System?

    This may well be true but no monitoring station will give you this alert for €4.99 a month or am I missing something?

    There are plenty of ways to do this without paying a monitoring station.
    Remember HKC are not a monitoring Station .
    2011 wrote: »

    Perhaps, but I am comparing HKC to Siemens and making the point that the differences are so minor that we are splitting hairs. The GSD is a completely different panel.
    It is. But it was stated earlier to include all app systems in this thread so I think its only fair when one panel is getting promoted to included others that do the same for less.
    2011 wrote: »

    This is exactly my point, the HKC and Siemens panels are pretty much identical in terms of what they can offer the end user. The HKC has a slight edge in my opinion because it offers a few more handy features such as wire free sensors.

    If its extra features you want I could write a list a mile long with Siemens over others. But as this thread is about the app features that might be for another thread. You can use wire free sensors with Siemens also.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    It will do it for free via another path or it could be set up an a paid service in any number of ways via either another ATS or via any number of GSM options. We have researched international SIM charges and it could well be set up in a number of ways for cheaper than €4.99 per month.

    So just like the HKC the Siemens system can have a secondary means of communication that does not have a single point of failure.
    However the similarities do not end there, just like HKC the Siemens system charge for this too :)

    The obvious question is: What does this cost?
    Remember HKC are not a monitoring Station

    Even I worked that one out :)
    My point is that the App notifies the end user of alarm events automatically.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    I have researched this and it could be a little as €2 per month. We are also looking into many other options and ways of doing this. The new set up of the Siemens software makes lots of options possible.
    Again many of these options or costs may well be short term as I am promised Siemens are looking at their own poll fail options down the road as well.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I have researched this and it could be a little as €2 per month. We are also looking into many other options and ways of doing this. The new set up of the Siemens software makes lots of options possible.
    Again many of these options or costs may well be short term as I am promised Siemens are looking at their own poll fail options down the road as well.

    Ok, so let me get this straight:

    I want an alarm system to notify me when it is down that has totally independent means of communications (no common point of failure) without me having to open the APP the HKC system will cost €4.99 a month and the Siemens will cost me €2.00

    Is this correct?

    So I can save almost €36 per year.
    Lets get real, this is a fraction of the average annual monitoring and service contract.

    Are we splitting hairs or am I missing something? :confused:

    I think we are back to your earlier point:
    The only difference I see is who you pay.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    A saving is a saving if you want it. You can also goto GSD and get it all for no charges.

    On the other side of the coin is the vast majority of customers....
    Here's my question.
    So I just want a system that will notify me of any alarm event and give me an app to control the system remotely. I don't want to pay for every app I need and I don't want to pay annual service fees.
    What's the benefits of HKC here?
    Why do HKC not allow this basic service for free like Siemens GSD UTC and Risco?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    A saving is a saving if you want it.

    A €36 saving only applies if everything else is equal.
    This could be negated just by shopping around and using a different alarm installer.
    My point being that the customer may not actually get charged €36 per annum less just because they select a Siemens system rather than a HKC.
    You can also goto GSD and get it all for no charges.

    So the GSD will notify me when it is down, has two totally independent means of communications (no common point of failure) and will notify me of alarm events without me having to open the APP? ...and all of this for free? Why bother with Siemens? :P
    On the other side of the coin is the vast majority of customers....

    There is.......and many of them buy systems that have no perimeter protection, fake bell boxes and they pay over the odds for monitoring and maintenance :)

    Most laypeople have no concept of this. They find an alarm installer that they trust, they may or may not shop around. In the end they will most likely go with the recommendation that the alarm installer makes.
    Here's my question.
    So I just want a system that will notify me of any alarm event and give me an app to control the system remotely. I don't want to pay for every app I need and I don't want to pay annual service fees.
    What's the benefits of HKC here?

    For a nominal free an end user can have a notification of an alarm event without having to continually open the app to confirm that it has not lost comms.
    Why do HKC not allow this basic service for free like Siemens GSD UTC and Risco?

    I can't speak for them, but I imagine they believe that some people would rather pay a small amount per annum in return for extra security. Clearly they are correct in some cases, but not in all.

    I think you are missing the point, if the largest significant difference that you can point to is a cost of €36 a year then both systems very, very similar in terms of functionality, price and user interface.

    If the price of the app is that important how are HKC still in business?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    2011 wrote: »
    A €36 saving only applies if everything else is equal.
    This could be negated just by shopping around and using a different alarm installer.
    My point being that the customer may not actually get charged €36 per annum less just because they select a Siemens system rather than a HKC.
    But your alarm isn't for a year. All going well you may get 15 years or more out of it. As we all well know annual fees only go one way & that's up.
    Speaking of which, did any of our HKC installers here get any information on HKCs new price plans at the recent road shows?
    2011 wrote: »

    So the GSD will notify me when it is down, has two totally independent means of communications (no common point of failure) and will notify me of alarm events without me having to open the APP? ...and all of this for free?
    Why bother with Siemens? :P

    It will notify when the system is down once a poll is missing. It will notify you via push notifications without having to open the app. It will notify you instantly if an entry time is started (or any alarm event) & followed by a comms fail to the server.(Smash & grab alert).

    Why bother with Siemens??
    I don't only use Siemens, I use most panels, as I said earlier there is no one panel that suits every application.

    2011 wrote: »

    There is.......and many of them buy systems that have no perimeter protection, fake bell boxes and they pay over the odds for monitoring and maintenance :)
    And usually what their answer would be is I didn't know. My installer never told me that. I hear the same line every day from people who have got quotes from someone trying to sell them a HKC system.
    2011 wrote: »
    Most laypeople have no concept of this. They find an alarm installer that they trust, they may or may not shop around. In the end they will most likely go with the recommendation that the alarm installer makes.

    And there lies the problem... This industry is full of installers who want to install what they want, not what suits the customers needs or wants.


    2011 wrote: »
    For a nominal free an end user can have a notification of an alarm event without having to continually open the app to confirm that it has not lost comms.
    With Siemens you will get instant notification via email or emails.With Risco you push notifications & emails. With GSD you get push notifications and network fail alerts.
    While we keep going back to this as being a nominal fee for Siemens & HKC do you not acknowledge that the free options that are offered are a plus for those panels & a negative for HKC?
    2011 wrote: »

    I can't speak for them, but I imagine they believe that some people would rather pay a small amount per annum in return for extra security. Clearly they are correct in some cases, but not in all.

    I think you are missing the point, if the largest significant difference that you can point to is a cost of €36 a year then both systems very, very similar in terms of functionality, price and user interface.

    If the price of the app is that important how are HKC still in business?

    There are plenty of company's charging over the odds & not informing customers of better options or better security options. One of the biggest installation companies in the country comes to mind. Does that make them a good security company? I think most installers here would answer that one with a no.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    But your alarm isn't for a year. All going well you may get 15 years or more out of it. As we all well know annual fees only go one way & that's up.

    ...and in 15 years if you put all of those coins in a jar... Come on!! :D:D:D

    Clearly:
    1) Many customers don't care or HKC would be out of business.
    2) This "saving" is not necessarily being passed onto customers. Service contacts alone may vary by far more than €36 a year. I know your advice is to shop around and I agree, but clearly many people don't.
    It will notify when the system is down once a poll is missing. It will notify you via push notifications without having to open the app. It will notify you instantly if an entry time is started (or any alarm event) & followed by a comms fail to the server.(Smash & grab alert).

    Yup, both systems will do this for practically the same price....
    Why bother with Siemens??
    I don't only use Siemens, I use most panels, as I said earlier there is no one panel that suits every application.

    Siemens makes some great kit, I agree with you there.
    I spent a lot of money on their equipment last year (not alarm gear).
    My point is that a small price differential is not the primary driver for many people.
    There are other considerations that are far more important to many people.
    Would you not agree?
    I doubt that cost is your only consideration when selecting components?
    And usually what their answer would be is I didn't know. My installer never told me that.

    I disagree, in my opinion you are describing the exception not the rule.
    Many, many people will never understand ¼ of the contents of this thread no matter how patiently it is explained.
    They want ther nicer user interface and / or they believe "what the nice man says".
    And there lies the problem... This industry is full of installers who want to install what they want, not what suits the customers needs or wants.

    If it is a toss up between the HKC and the Siemens so what? They are both excellent systems.
    We both know that there are plenty of satisfied customers that have purchased HKC systems and there are plenty of satisfied customers that have purchased Siemens systems.
    The specifications, programming / set up and installation of these systems is far more important that which make they went for.

    Let's be honest both of us would be far more concerned about homes that are protected by systems that have no perimeter protection, no working bell box, and a very accessible phone line.
    With Siemens you will get instant notification via email or emails.With Risco you push notifications & emails. With GSD you get push notifications and network fail alerts.
    While we keep going back to this as being a nominal fee for Siemens & HKC do you not acknowledge that the free options that are offered are a plus for those panels & a negative for HKC?

    Anything that adds an additional cost is a negative.
    However we need to get a sense of perspective, the smaller the additional cost the less different it makes.
    Let's get real, this is peanuts.

    Besides, if €36 a year means that much to someone they are most likely not going to buy a HKC or Siemens panel anyway, it will be out of their price range.

    Apart from the domestic installations, you think that the average small / medium / large business would care about €36 a year saving? They will write it off on tax and claim back the VAT anyway.

    Many people are prepared to pay a small additional amount if they feel that they are getting something for it.
    If this was not the case nobody would buy an iPhone. You may argue that the Siemens is superior quality to the HKC, and perhaps you are correct.
    However you have to accept that there will always be a significant number of people that will have an opposing view.

    I know someone that has a Siemens and a HKC system in two separate premises. He prefers the app for the HKC and does not mind paying the extra charge. Each to their own.

    Obviously you feel that there are situations where the Siemens is preferable to the GSD, so you pay the extra cost. Why? I imagine it is because there are other considerations.
    Does that make them a good security company?

    A business is a business is a business. It makes them a commercially successful company and brand that many people have a lot of faith in.
    I think most installers here would answer that one with a no.

    I think that most accountants would say yes even if their installations were proven to be less secure.
    Unfortunately that is the sad truth and we both know it.
    It also proves my point, branding influences the customer more than quality/ specifications / value for money or security. Your €36 per year "saving" will not sway many people.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Its not all about the saving.But for me it is about having to pay & not having a free option. Its about what you are going to be tied to for this service. You are committing to this product & committing to the cost whatever happens. If the price increases in the next year or 2 you will have no option to shop around. So do you pay the price whatever or give up your app etc.
    I notice none is answering or commenting about the impending new price plans yet.
    Come on comparing all the factors & looking at the bigger picture HKC & PW are the only ones for this feature. All the other major players are not.
    Yes HKC is a successful company. Siemens Risco & UTC would be much more successful companies entirely . GSD may have a bit to go but they are already very well established in their own right in the access control field.
    Yes I agree other factors & features come into play, but like I said , that's probably for another thread as it would not be related to the apps.
    Perhaps start another thread & we can bash it all out.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    This thread is fine lads. There a no need to extend past apps anyway.

    BTW who'd monitor the alarm for two euro a month, that's a great cost.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    I notice none is answering or commenting about the impending new price plans yet.

    Because I have no idea about the new price plans for any systems, be it HKC, Siemens, GSD, whatever.
    However it would seem that none of them have priced themselves out of the market.


    Do you agree with this statement from my last post, yes or no:
    If it is a toss up between the HKC and the Siemens so what? They are both excellent systems.
    We both know that there are plenty of satisfied customers that have purchased HKC systems and there are plenty of satisfied customers that have purchased Siemens systems.
    The specifications, programming / set up and installation of these systems is far more important that which make they went for.


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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    If HKC were to have a free option like other systems then I would agree it would be nearer a toss up. I do agree that programming and features plays a big part. On this, I think if you do your research, you will see this is where Siemens is way ahead of any panel on the market.
    Stoner, €2 a month wouldn't be monitoring as such just as HKC is not monitoring. It would be an alternative way of getting network failures on Siemens systems untill this feature becomes available. If would be an option using international sim cards or an alternative server connection.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    Ah, I was thinking and wondering if there was added value in it.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    From my experience over the past couple of years the people who want apps are those who do not want to pay for advanced monitoring options. They just want the convenience of the app and the notifications along with remote access to the system.
    A bit like the text and voice alerts of the past.
    No one selling HKC text diallers years ago were concerned about phone lines going down or what ifs on every scenario possible.
    In reality even with central station monitoring the vast majority of accounts would be using single paths. We are installing IP systems every week and by far the vast majority of those are notifications and remote access via the app and browser. The first words from most customers are they do not want to pay subscriptions for this service. Those who are happy to pay would rather have central station monitoring for their money.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,952 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    I'd agree apps in my mind replace monitoring for domestic clients. Anyone I talk to would agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    KoolKid wrote: »
    A saving is a saving if you want it. You can also goto GSD and get it all for no charges.

    On the other side of the coin is the vast majority of customers....
    Here's my question.
    So I just want a system that will notify me of any alarm event and give me an app to control the system remotely. I don't want to pay for every app I need and I don't want to pay annual service fees.
    What's the benefits of HKC here?
    Why do HKC not allow this basic service for free like Siemens GSD UTC and Risco?



    You only pay for HKCs app once. Why you can't understand this I'll never know. It supports family sharing.

    You're correct HKCs service is not basic which is why you get a better service for what you pay.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    KoolKid wrote: »
    If HKC were to have a free option like other systems then I would agree it would be nearer a toss up. I do agree that programming and features plays a big part.

    Fair enough, that means that we essentially agree.
    I just view the fact that the app costs money as not being as big a deal as you do.

    I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of it, I genuinely don't see a significant advantage of one panel over the other. I accept that Siemens are market leaders with many products.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Evolution1 wrote: »
    You only pay for HKCs app once. Why you can't understand this I'll never know. It supports family sharing.
    I wasn't really bringing that up, But now that you mention it can you define family sharing? What is the criteria to determine who is a family member & who would not qualify & have to pay for another download.?
    Evolution1 wrote: »
    You're correct HKCs service is not basic which is why you get a better service for what you pay.
    Its great to see you back over the fence once again. It only seems like a few weeks ago you were on the phone to me stating how bad their service was & how the service was down yet again.:confused:
    GSD would have an equally good service with network fail notifications & smash & grab alerts etc. Yet people don't have to pay for that better service.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭Evolution1


    Family is family. They get the app for free.


    The GSD system won't text over the IP so if the gsm is jammed you'll get no text. How is that the better service?


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Family is family??
    That's hardly anything definitive.
    Brothers, Sisters, husbands, wives, sons, daughters, uncles, aunts, neices, nephews and all the in laws. They can all have a free app if they want. I doubt that. So how do you explain that to the app store and the Play store??
    The GSD system sends notifications from the servers not the panel so it makes no difference how many comm paths go down.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 640 ✭✭✭Tony Beetroot


    A family would be two parents and their children, uncles, aunts, neices, nephews and all the in laws would be defined as immediate family.


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