Help me decide on a watch

aristotle25 · 10-09-2019 8:20am #1

Looking to buy a watch for the first time in 20 years and narrowing it down to a few now.

In general I like black, auto, day\date, chrono, don't like metal bracelet.

Thinking of the Hamilton Khaki Field H71626735 or Tag HEUER Formula 1 Calibre 16 CAZ2011.FT8024 (black).

I would think the Tag Heurer would generally be a better buy, although its more expensive (about €1500 v €2200) ?

Is there a big difference in quality between these two?

RMDrive · 10-09-2019 11:04am

aristotle25 wrote: »

Looking to buy a watch for the first time in 20 years and narrowing it down to a few now.

In general I like black, auto, day\date, chrono, don't like metal bracelet.

Thinking of the Hamilton Khaki Field H71626735 or Tag HEUER Formula 1 Calibre 16 CAZ2011.FT8024 (black).

I would think the Tag Heurer would generally be a better buy, although its more expensive (about €1500 v €2200) ?

Is there a big difference in quality between these two?

Both lovely choices. If I were you ... I'd buy 3-4 Seiko's. You'd then have a nice little collection ... dress watch ... diver ... and you'd have way more fun with 4 watches rather than 1!!

Wibbs · 10-09-2019 11:21am

Personally I'd avoid the Tag HEUER, or rather I wouldn't buy one new. Go secondhand as they lose a lot in depreciation. Not an issue if it's gonna be a "watch for life" mind you.

banie01 · 10-09-2019 11:33am

I'd also recommend going 2nd hand on the Tag if that's where you end up going.

The initial depreciation is IMO a big hit to be taking especially vis a vis other brands in that segment.

If it were me, I'd buy a Sinn

Anjobe · 10-09-2019 1:27pm

There are a couple of nice black PVD finished chronos from Sinn, they are a level above either of the watches the OP picked in price though.

Wibbs · 10-09-2019 1:32pm

Actually yeah, Doh, Sinn, definitely should be on your list. Fantastic watches with a great history and much less of the BS of some of the other brands.

banie01 · 10-09-2019 4:21pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually yeah, Doh, Sinn, definitely should be on your list. Fantastic watches with a great history and much less of the BS of some of the other brands.

Even if the OP doesn't buy a Sinn, at the very least I'd recommend they fill out the contact form on sinn.de to get a copy of their beautiful, absolutely lovely catalogue

The Sinn pilot Chrono's are stunning imo.

aristotle25 · 10-09-2019 5:43pm

banie01 wrote: »

Even if the OP doesn't buy a Sinn, at the very least I'd recommend they fill out the contact form on sinn.de to get a copy of their beautiful, absolutely lovely catalogue

The Sinn pilot Chrono's are stunning imo.

Ha, I did that at the weekend

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 10-09-2019 5:59pm

Take that very good budget and put it in second hand...try advert.ie. You will get a nice Omega seamaster or speedmaster. Tag would not be my favourite watch brand TBH.

A+-Guru · 14-09-2019 1:25am

I think this is right up you're alley. this is truly a stunning piece, homage to the Original Omega 6B/159 used in WW2

Zagato · 14-09-2019 9:11am

Based on your likes above, and assuming you want it to last another 20yrs. Definitely don't overlook Damasko.

DA36 or DC56(chrono) perhaps

https://www.damasko-watches.com/en/models/three-hand-models/classic-three-hand-models/13/da36

https://www.damasko-watches.com/en/models/chronographs/classic-pilot-chronographs/58/dc56

Wibbs · 14-09-2019 10:55am

A+-Guru wrote: »

I think this is right up you're alley. this is truly a stunning piece, homage to the Original Omega 6B/159 used in WW2

The faux patina is ugh to my eyes. Oh and 6B/159 was a set of British military standards for hacking wristwatches(some with Weems bezels, some without), a specification that was filled by quite a few watch manufacturers. Omega was but one such marque who produced watches to an existing design and spec.

A+-Guru · 14-09-2019 12:47pm

I agree with you re: faux patina, but still a nice piece, the blued hands are lovely. No homage is going to be like Origional. It has proved to be popular you cannot get one, I rang all longines ADs and all out of stock, chrono24 have some though.

Another one to look at is the Smith's homage, alot cheaper at around 500 with hand winding and available in both P.M and A.M

oxocube · 16-09-2019 10:55am

Here's a nice Tag Heuer Carrera in your price range.

Cienciano · 16-09-2019 1:16pm

Just a quick glance through here, there's plenty to match what you're looking for.

https://www.jurawatches.co.uk/collections/sinn-watches

oxocube · 16-09-2019 1:45pm

Don't know why all the hate for Tag Heuer. People seem to think that they're a chavy watch or not well built, but I disagree.

I love my link :cool:

Cienciano · 16-09-2019 10:08pm

I posted this before when someone asked a similar question. Taken from a replica forum (so, you know, grain of salt) on "why we hate Tag, Hublot and Panerai

TAG HEUER
used to be a well-respected brand called Heuer. the monaco, carrera and autavia are all classics. in the 1980s, they were bought by TAG (techniques d'avantgarde, a company with zero watchmaking experience). TAG began whoring heuer out, making cheap quartz watches (the F1 for example, TAG being a sponsor to the mclaren F1 team and even paying to have their porsche engines branded as TAG units). the designs become more and more garish, and the brand moved downmarket. by the 90s/ early 2000s they're basically hublot/panerai, but at lower price points. swiss watches for aspirational douches, basically. there was always a classically-styled carrera available, so at least they had that going for them. eventually they were bought by LVMH, and the decision was made to move them back to respectability. the garish designs stopped, and even some very technically impressive limited numbers watches were created (carrera pendulum, mikrograph, monaco V4).

however, the cheaper models still used ETA calibers (and their sellita copies). the F1 quartz actually uses a cheap-ass ronda movement, less than 10 bucks on ebay... but the watch costs 800. this is a joke, so what does TAG do? they announce their own in-house movement, back in 2009 if memory serves (or 2008?). much was made of this, and they named it the caliber 1887, after the year heuer was founded. everyone lived happily ever after, and TAG returned to respectability.

that is, until someone found out that this "in-house" caliber 1887 is actually an existing design that TAG simply bought from ... seiko.

now, there is nothing wrong with seiko, they make some awesome watches (especially the grand seikos). but there IS something wrong with trying to pass off a japanese movement that you just bought from seiko as a pure swiss, in-house design. TAG back-pedaled, the CEO gave some interviews in which he says that in-house made is the same as in-house engineered, nobody really believed him, and TAG lost what credibility it had left.

that being said, at the 2000 dollar price point, a carrera does seem to be a good buy. but if i were in a position to buy one now, i'd rather save a bit more and get a slightly used grand seiko.

anyway, that explains the gist of it. nobody NEEDS a watch anymore. it's all just smoke and mirrors, image and heritage. technology and marketing. but some brands are better at this than others. even omega isn't as respected as rolex, and neither are breguet or blancpain. why? another time...

Rep forums are usually pretty funny tbh

Lorddrakul · 17-09-2019 1:16pm

@Cienciano: That is a fair assessment of Tag Heuer, to be honest, and I'd not really argue with it.

However, I would add that TAG Heuer was pretty much responsible for the modern transponder-based time keeping system now ubiquitous in motorsport.

Not only that, but an early pioneer and legend in the field, Michelle Dubosc, who was first ever professional timekeeper in Grand Prix Racing, worked closely with them to develop the capability.

Michelle-Dubosc-first-ever-professional-timekeeper-in-Grand-Prix-Racing.jpg

Michelle-Dubosc-first-ever-professional-timekeeper-in-Grand-Prix-Racing.jpg

Consequently, for many motorsport fans, and F1 fans in particular, timing means TAG Heuer.

Yes, TAG Heuer uses quartz movements in many of its watches and the Formula 1 Professional line in particular, but if there is a mechanical chrono that can accurately measure 1/100s of a second, I've yet to see it.

Not only that, the Swiss movements used (eg ETA 251.262) are also widely used in other Swiss makers, such as Breitling.

No more than many other manufacturers, TAG Heuer diversified into many segments to develop a larger customer base, and made many concessions as a result. But I don't they it is any more guilty than any other manufacturer that decided to go with a larger base, as opposed to the Rolex route of strangled supply to inflate demand.

To my mind, Rolex are now the Harley Davidson of the watch world, living on past glories with an aging customer base that will die sooner than brook real innovation in the offerings.

Wibbs · 17-09-2019 1:47pm

Having had a few vintage Heuer in my time, they had some fantastic designs alright, but were never one of the "grand houses" of watchmaking. Which is fine too, they certainly had their niche, but IMHO when TAG came along the overall quality of their output went up for the most part. They became better made watches. And someone had to take them over as they'd brushed with insolvency down the years and not just with the "quartz crisis". They always seemed a bit "amateur" in some ways. Their vintage records range from appalling to nonexistent but one example.

Rep forum post wrote:

anyway, that explains the gist of it. nobody NEEDS a watch anymore. it's all just smoke and mirrors, image and heritage. technology and marketing. but some brands are better at this than others. even omega isn't as respected as rolex, and neither are breguet or blancpain. why? another time...

That's fairly accurate alright. Why Blancpain and Breguet aren't as respected as Rolex(though I'm not so sure about that. It very much depends on the market segment)? Rolex and Omega are brands operating continuously since their inception. Blancpain dwindled right down to almost nothing and were a bought in name to a large degree and Breguet have an even more tenuous connection with the original company and have about as much to do with the original Louis as I do. Plus they're much smaller concerns with more expensive watches so their market is far smaller than a Rolex or Omega who are more mass produced so have a wider audience.

Lorddrakul wrote:

To my mind, Rolex are now the Harley Davidson of the watch world, living on past glories with an aging customer base that will die sooner than brook real innovation in the offerings.

I find much more of a parallel with Porsche myself. Expensive, but within reach of their generally conservative middle class audience, aspirational and consistent and traditional with few shocks for their customer base and they both stay very close to the formula that is popular and sells. They avoid innovation, certainly on the design front, preferring to leave that to their history as a marketing point. When Porsche or Rolex have innovated over the last 40 years and brought out different models to their core 911 and steel sports watches they didn't sell nearly so much. Id not be so sure they're an ageing customer base either. Certainly the "scarce" stock thing and accompanying hype over the last couple of years has turned a lot of younger newbie buyers onto the brand, particularly in the US. A relatively new market for them(they were almost entirely a UK and her commonwealth brand before 1960), a market that doesn't have nearly as much of the inverse snobbery that can be seen elsewhere about the brand.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 18-09-2019 9:24am

Innovation in the mechanical wristwatch is such a funny concept. The quartz watch, smart watch and now the online synchronization of time has long left the mechanical watch for dead in the technology stakes. Its like new innovations in the steam engine,whats the point.

All mechanical watches have is...brand, quality, craftmanship, history and desirability. These are the metrics by which they are judged. By far the most important are the first and last on my list. Rolex and Patek are masters at branding and desirability. Anything else is like a beauty contest at a star trek convention, no external validity only internal.

Wibbs · 18-09-2019 10:59am

Oh very true regarding the movement itself. TBH it was one reason I stayed in the vintage end. They're an anachronism, but one I can live with.

I was talking more about overall design. Rolex design has been pickled for decades, which has worked very well for them. They know their customer base. TAG went the other way in many respects, rattling out new designs that became very of their time, particularly in the 90's. Which worked for them in getting their name out to the general public. While it's ebbed latterly to some degree, for most "civilians" the only "luxury" watch names they'd know off the top of their head would be Rolex and TAG*. Which plugs into your brand/desirability metrics. Which I would agree with too.

*watch brands in general would be those two plus Casio, Seiko, maybe Omega for some, IWC for others(though that would be more in play a decade ago). Most of the others would be "who?", in the anglosphere anyway. A brand like Longines would be more known in Asian and Italian markets for example. Patek would be barely in the mix for most people, but again they know their market.

Cienciano · 18-09-2019 11:48am

Wibbs wrote: »

That's fairly accurate alright. Why Blancpain and Breguet aren't as respected as Rolex(though I'm not so sure about that. It very much depends on the market segment)? Rolex and Omega are brands operating continuously since their inception. Blancpain dwindled right down to almost nothing and were a bought in name to a large degree and Breguet have an even more tenuous connection with the original company and have about as much to do with the original Louis as I do. Plus they're much smaller concerns with more expensive watches so their market is far smaller than a Rolex or Omega who are more mass produced so have a wider audience. .

I think you answered your question there. Blancpain and Breguet not being a continuously watchmaker and then basically having their name bought marks them down. Now, coming from a rep forum that might be funny, but it still counts! Personally the popularity of Rolex makes them a whole less desirable for me.

Wibbs wrote: »

I find much more of a parallel with Porsche myself. Expensive, but within reach of their generally conservative middle class audience, aspirational and consistent and traditional with few shocks for their customer base and they both stay very close to the formula that is popular and sells. They avoid innovation, certainly on the design front, preferring to leave that to their history as a marketing point. When Porsche or Rolex have innovated over the last 40 years and brought out different models to their core 911 and steel sports watches they didn't sell nearly so much. Id not be so sure they're an ageing customer base either. Certainly the "scarce" stock thing and accompanying hype over the last couple of years has turned a lot of younger newbie buyers onto the brand, particularly in the US. A relatively new market for them(they were almost entirely a UK and her commonwealth brand before 1960), a market that doesn't have nearly as much of the inverse snobbery that can be seen elsewhere about the brand.

I agree that Porsche is probably a better comparison. Harley are badly made, unreliable and massively over priced and are considered a bit of a joke among other bikers. The only ones really respected in the bikers world are some of the vintage ones. At the risk of offending Tag owners, maybe Tag are the Harley of the watch world!

aristotle25 · 18-09-2019 2:05pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Well op what did you decide on ?

Now veering towards Sinn, just got their catalogue in the post yesterday so having a look. Like this at the moment - https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/240_St.htm - with the "cowhide; integrated in the case; black, contrasting seam".

Really like this, but can't justify the money - https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/140_St_S.htm

Still like the Hamilton though. I have been watching plenty of YouTube videos so I can figure out what I like.

Birneybau · 18-09-2019 2:26pm

aristotle25 wrote: »

Now veering towards Sinn, just got their catalogue in the post yesterday so having a look. Like this at the moment - https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/240_St.htm - with the "cowhide; integrated in the case; black, contrasting seam".

That's really lovely. Got my catalogue yesterday, a nice thing to have. Fair play to them.

Cienciano · 18-09-2019 2:48pm

aristotle25 wrote: »

Now veering towards Sinn, just got their catalogue in the post yesterday so having a look. Like this at the moment - https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/240_St.htm - with the "cowhide; integrated in the case; black, contrasting seam".

Really like this, but can't justify the money - https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/140_St_S.htm

Still like the Hamilton though. I have been watching plenty of YouTube videos so I can figure out what I like.

I hope bitching about Tags didn't turn you off your dream watch. I actually know nothing about watches, do not take anything I said seriously!
That sinn looks great though, they have a really nice line of watches.

oxocube · 18-09-2019 3:08pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Each to their own I guess but I’m not buying or wearing a watch for other people’s approval that’s for sure (currently wearing a Fitbit lol)

Its my orange Seiko SKX011 that gets the most remarks. Cost €230 delivered

banie01 · 18-09-2019 5:59pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

Buy the watch you like don’t worry what others think, I was wearing my seawolf the other day and a fella wearing a Raymond Weil said he likes breitling but there’s such a stigma attached to them he wouldn’t dare buy one
Each to their own I guess but I’m not buying or wearing a watch for other people’s approval that’s for sure (currently wearing a Fitbit lol)

Breitling stigma?
What stigma? I mean I get buying a Breitling emergency when your idea of an expedition is a trip to the golf course...
But apart from that, I've not encountered any knockers that I can think of?
Nor give a feck about :P

That said, to the OP.
Omega G is right, watches are very much a matter of personal taste and wear what you like.

banie01 · 18-09-2019 6:30pm

OmegaGene wrote: »

It was news to me I must say but I just agreed with him and carried on, I had an emergency just for the look of the watch and feck all to do with exploring lol

Not gonna lie, I think I was about 16 when the Emergency was released and MAD into airplanes!
The whole presentation and raison d'etre of the watch really grabbed me.
I will never have any actual or practical use for it these days but its just so cool to know that I could summon help if ever needed...

Rather than, I dunno...
A satellite phone or a mobile :pac:
I'd still prefer the watch!

Cienciano · 18-09-2019 7:41pm

There's a stigma about everything. People hate royal oaks and nautilus. I think the only thing that seems to be universally respected is Zenith and Grand Seiko

Wibbs · 18-09-2019 9:16pm

Zenith have come in for some flak from some quarters with their designs and price hikes over the years CC. The Rolling Stones Edition raised a few eyebrows and hoots of laughter. The faux patina on their pilots watches another one. Grand Seiko tend to be held in high esteem as a general thing alright. They sometimes get accused of high prices, even though at their pricepoint(and higher) the level of finishing blows the Swiss out of the water. But as FG pointed out for many it's about brand and desirability and little else.

I suppose popularity attracts criticism. The "lower ranked" brands tend to be mostly left alone.

aristotle25 · 03-10-2019 5:50pm

Thanks for all the pointers and opinions. I have received the first of two watches I have bought.

Its far from earth shattering and right at the budget end but I went for nice Seiko automatic - https://ibb.co/NFjLST9

It has day\date, an easy to read dial and generally looks dark the way I like. The nato strap it came with is pretty poor (feels rough) as I expected so I am ordering some new ones and a nice leather one too.

Its 42mm which suits, I had bought a 38mm seiko (slightly different face) but returned it as it was too small.

Someone said I could think of buying a few different watches rather than spend 1000 or whatever on one watch and that made a lot of sense to me. And as I am just starting I need to learn a bit more on what I should buy towards that type of money.

Sinn still on my wish list though.

Help me decide on a watch

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