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Boy A and Boy B guilty

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gerry G wrote: »
    Spot on Dean. There is no mitigating circumstances in Murder.

    I don't agree with this. Someone brutally beating and raping you for years and you plan to murder them. That's pretty mitigating IMO.

    In this case I agree there are no mitigating circumstances and it's a shame we don't have capital punishment here for cases like this.


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    #63
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Sam Quentin wrote: »
    Apparently not,.the poor girls 'DNA' was in a lot of places including on boy A.. but not on boy B

    I see...

    Anyway, it really does appear that boy A was the sadistic killer/leader. But B was definitely complicit. He may not have known what exactly A was going to do, it he had to know something nasty was going to go down..

    All round mad....

    13 years old....and from what I am interpreting, both behaving and responding and reacting to it all like grown adults..


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    #64
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    deandean wrote: »
    I reckon that not guilty pleas were entered for both in the hope that they might get off on some form of technicality.

    I don’t doubt this, but my question is what kind of parent would go along with this, knowing the depravity that they visited upon that poor girl? The parents must have approved of the not guilty plea..

    I cannot know for certain how I’d react, but if my son I’d be almost certain that they would be made tell the absolute truth, and face their punishment, as well as then disowning them..


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    #65
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.


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    #66
    zoe 3619
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭zoe 3619


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    Had a quick read of that,but sort of skimmed through it.
    Would be interested to hear your thoughts?


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    #67
    fiachraX
    Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭fiachraX


    I wonder whether Boy B is even smarter and more devious than he appears at face value, and got Boy A to commit the actual violence (perhaps without Boy A even realizing it wasn't his own idea) so he could witness it without getting his hands dirty. Anything I've read suggests he's a manipulator, quite consciously doing things to create an impression or have an effect on someone. E.g. asking for Lego in Oberstown to promote an image of being a young innocent boy.
    Even if this is not the case and the murder idea was led by Boy A, I certainly feel Boy B is very far from innocent.


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    #68
    irishgirl19
    Registered Users Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭irishgirl19


    fiachraX wrote:
    I wonder whether Boy B is even smarter and more devious than he appears at face value, and got Boy A to commit the actual violence (perhaps without Boy A even realizing it wasn't his own idea) so he could witness it without getting his hands dirty. Anything I've read suggests he's a manipulator, quite consciously doing things to create an impression or have an effect on someone. E.g. asking for Lego in Oberstown to promote an image of being a young innocent boy. Even if this is not the case and the murder idea was led by Boy A, I certainly feel Boy B is very far from innocent.


    I've heard that boy B was the mastermind behind it all. How true that is, I don't know.
    Can't believe their parents didn't encourage them to plead guilty. Its despicable


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    #69
    Teepinaw
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭Teepinaw


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    What do you mean?


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    #70
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The IT article is ridiculously detailed and in-depth

    Both killers.

    What I found odd: not a single witness called by the defense..


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    #71
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Another thing: this Boy B traumatized nonsense..

    If he really was so traumatized he wouldn’t have been so cool and calm and composed whilst lying and lying; most likely a 13 year old child that is traumatized would break down and tell the truth here..


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    #72
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    Well, don’t keep us hanging, pal...?


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    #73
    Happy4all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭Happy4all


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    can anyone provide a link, seems to require subscription


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    #74
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Happy4all wrote: »
    can anyone provide a link, seems to require subscription

    Ana Kriégel murder trial: The complete story
    via The Irish Times
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kri%C3%A9gel-murder-trial-the-complete-story-1.3929570


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    #75
    el Fenomeno
    Registered Users Posts: 3,106 ✭✭✭el Fenomeno


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    Read the whole thing last night, not sure what you're referring to.


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    #76
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    zoe 3619 wrote: »
    Had a quick read of that,but sort of skimmed through it.
    Would be interested to hear your thoughts?

    There's quite a bit of discussion about lack of previous trouble with the Gardai and records, very specific discussion. Its quite odd to focus on one of the two in that way; possibly a lack of info though.


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    #77
    zoe 3619
    Registered Users Posts: 624 ✭✭✭zoe 3619


    L1011 wrote: »
    There's quite a bit of discussion about lack of previous trouble with the Gardai and records, very specific discussion. Its quite odd to focus on one of the two in that way; possibly a lack of info though.

    Thanks.will have another read of it.


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    #78
    NoteAgent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭NoteAgent


    blastman wrote: »
    A friend works within the prison system, and apparently the two of them were being seen as quite the celebrities while the case was going on. I have to say that sickened me when I heard that.....

    Really? Who's looking up to them? Other sickos?


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    #79
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,513 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    fryup wrote: »
    ger664 wrote: »
    He knocked on her door and walked her 3K to the scence of her horrific death. Mage no attempt to stop it and when questioned told lie after lie.

    Guilty by association correct charge and correct verdict by a very brave jury

    yes i know......but....technically he didn't actually physically kill her....so i'm sure they are grounds for an appeal

    maybe some legal eagles out there can clarify this
    So by that logic if you hire a hitman it's not murder as you didn't physically kill anyone...


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    #80
    SirGerryAdams
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 499 ✭✭SirGerryAdams


    L1011 wrote: »
    Read between the lines in the very lengthy Irish Times summary and see if you notice something being hinted at... either that or I've actually gone mad.

    hat you think?


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    #81
    Damien360
    Registered Users Posts: 6,249 ✭✭✭Damien360


    L1011 wrote: »
    There's quite a bit of discussion about lack of previous trouble with the Gardai and records, very specific discussion. Its quite odd to focus on one of the two in that way; possibly a lack of info though.

    Are you referring to the point that one boy never had trouble with the law. The other one this wasn't mentioned but the gardai looked up his address on pulse ? Insinuating the other was trouble already.


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    #82
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,485 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Are you referring to the point that one boy never had trouble with the law. The other one this wasn't mentioned but the gardai looked up his address on pulse ? Insinuating the other was trouble already.

    He doesn’t have to be in trouble to have his name on pulse.
    He could have been a victim himself, had an accident, been a witness etc etc.


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    #83
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Damien360 wrote: »
    Are you referring to the point that one boy never had trouble with the law. The other one this wasn't mentioned but the gardai looked up his address on pulse ? Insinuating the other was trouble already.


    Yes. As said above you can be on PULSE for countless purposes though, but referencing one not having been in trouble twice at different ends of the article is still odd


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    #84
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    So by that logic if you hire a hitman it's not murder as you didn't physically kill anyone...

    Different altogether..

    Boy B could argue that he didn’t participate in the physical killing, and was not aware that a killing was due to take place...

    The whole Boy A asking boy B if he wanted to kill someone could be argued as boy B not really taking that comment serious; we know the defence already made this point.

    Definite area there for an appeal..

    And his young age would really help.

    The fact that Boy A pled not guilty, actually strengthens Boy Bs argument that he did not know a killing was going to take place..

    If Boy A decided to plead guilty and say that it was a joint killing enterprise, then Boy Bs appeal would be weakened.

    Personally I don't believe that boy B did not know a killing, or at least serious harm was not going to happen. He knew something nasty was going to take place...that's just my view. Hard for me to prove this....


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    #85
    SozBbz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,889 ✭✭✭SozBbz


    walshb wrote: »
    Different altogether..

    Boy B could argue that he didn’t participate in the physical killing, and was not aware that a killing was due to take place...

    Definite area there for an appeal..

    And his young age would really help.

    The fact that Boy A pled not guilty, actually strengthens Boy Bs argument that he did not know a killing was going to take place..

    If Boy A decided to plead guilty and say that it was a joint killing enterprise, then Boy Bs appeal would be weakened.

    Nope, not necessarily. You can't appeal just because you don't like the result.

    He did put forward the argument that he didn't know that Boy A was going to kill her but clearly the jury didn't believe him.

    Its not grounds for an appeal to simply repeat the same argument. They need to demonstrate that the judge gave wrong instructions or that the the key evidence was missed or something else that could have made a difference.

    Again, its totally legitimate to find someone guilty of murder even if its accepted that they didnt physically harm the victim.


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    #86
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    SozBbz wrote: »
    Nope, not necessarily. You can't appeal just because you don't like the result.

    He did put forward the argument that he didn't know that Boy A was going to kill her but clearly the jury didn't believe him.

    Its not grounds for an appeal to simply repeat the same argument. They need to demonstrate that the judge gave wrong instructions or that the the key evidence was missed or something else that could have made a difference.

    Again, its totally legitimate to find someone guilty of murder even if its accepted that they didnt physically harm the victim.

    I get you,

    But the law is an ass at times, so I would not be surprised in the least if they chanced going for one...

    We all know how courts and judges overrule each other....it's a minefield.

    And 100 percent you can be done for murder without committing the actual act.


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    #87
    Elmo
    Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    SozBbz wrote: »

    Its not grounds for an appeal to simply repeat the same argument. They need to demonstrate that the judge gave wrong instructions or that the the key evidence was missed or something else that could have made a difference.

    Based on the media reporting of this case the judge seemed to try to move the jury away from a so-called group mentality and telling the to examine the fact without emotion (I paraphrase). I don’t think either legal team could suggest the judges instructions were wrong in anyway.

    After hearing what the judge had instructed I thought they might get away with it.

    I think he’ll give soft sentences


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    #88
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,584 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Elmo wrote: »
    Based on the media reporting of this case the judge seemed to try to move the jury away from a so-called group mentality and telling the to examine the fact without emotion (I paraphrase). I don’t think either legal team could suggest the judges instructions were wrong in anyway.

    After hearing what the judge had instructed I thought they might get away with it.

    I think he’ll give soft sentences

    He should be jailed if he even dreams of giving a “soft” sentence here..

    He should use the maximum possible penalty available to him..

    If he won’t do that, jail him...


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