Lead ban

Grizzly 45 · 28-11-2019 11:13pm

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
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dto001 · 28-11-2019 11:52pm

Money usually talks so maybe this will be the end of it!!!!!

oldgit1897 · 29-11-2019 12:52am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
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That Von Der Laden twit had the German army running around with brush handles painted black with the soldiers shouting "BANG" when they fired a shot, in one of the biggest and most advanced arms producing countries in the world. The same as Captain Mainwaring did back in 1939.

So she would probably support the lead ban and then wonder why the european militaries cannot defend their countries. :rolleyes:

ZiabR · 29-11-2019 9:20am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Apparently the ammo companies are speaking up now,and one of their problems is this with the military of the EU being exempted. As no ammo company in the EU survives wholly from Govt contracts.It wont be worth their while re tooling to alternatives to lead to supply the civillian market.And if lead is banned from sale in the EU.They will be forced to purchase it for military contracts from Russia or China!!!
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Interesting, and I imagine that the Military use huge amounts of ammunition training etc on a yearly basis. Am I right in saying that some testing was done on some of the military firing ranges and the lead "poisoning" was negligible/barely traceable, given the shear quantity of ammunition being fired in the one area?

Grizzly 45 · 29-11-2019 11:10am

oldgit1897 wrote: »

That Von Der Laden twit had the German army running around with brush handles painted black with the soldiers shouting "BANG" when they fired a shot, in one of the biggest and most advanced arms producing countries in the world. The same as Captain Mainwaring did back in 1939.

So she would probably support the lead ban and then wonder why the european militaries cannot defend their countries. :rolleyes:

"Flinten Ushi!"(shotgun Ursala)as the Bundeswehr calls her.Has moved on to bigger and better things in Brussels A walking disaster as German defence minister that one.Its said that the German army was in better fighting condition in April 1945,than in 2019.

oldgit1897 · 29-11-2019 3:37pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Flinten Ushi!"(shotgun Ursala)as the Bundeswehr calls her.Has moved on to bigger and better things in Brussels A walking disaster as German defence minister that one.Its said that the German army was in better fighting condition in April 1945,than in 2019.

The French are not happy with her already as she is surrounding herself in Brussels with German cronies.

tudderone · 10-12-2019 8:21pm

Reading online, that Waitrose and other supermarkets in the UK are banning the sale of game bird that were shot with lead. They are phasing out the sales inthe next two years. As shoots rely partially on the sales of shot birds for their income, they would have to insist that shooters use non-toxic shot, another nail in the lead shot coffin.

marlin vs · 11-12-2019 9:12am

Link. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/29/experts-call-for-ban-on-lead-shot-as-waitrose-overhauls-sale-of-game

ZiabR · 11-12-2019 10:17am

That is another nail in the coffin alright. Has anyone here used Steel shot in any great amount for game? I have been reading and watching videos about it in the UK as they are ahead of where we are. It does seem that steel shot is fine, with little to no difference (up to a certain range). Where the question marks start to come in is on high birds, after a certain range the velocity does drop off significantly faster with the steel shot.

The general consensus is that greener cartridges (bio degradable wads etc) and steel loads are perfectly viable for 85% of birds, but confidence is lost on high birds and birds beyond a certain range.

That being said, I cannot see how steel shot can be used for rifles. A solid load would pass straight through an animal meaning far more wounded targets. Lead is a much more humane load.

There are so many grey areas around the lead shot ban, perhaps it will settle on some kind of middle ground, if it settles at all.

tudderone · 11-12-2019 2:42pm

marlin vs wrote: »

Link. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/29/experts-call-for-ban-on-lead-shot-as-waitrose-overhauls-sale-of-game

"Research shows 70% of wildfowl were shot with lead in the uk".

ZiabR · 11-12-2019 2:46pm

tudderone wrote: »

"Research shows 70% of wildfowl were shot with lead in the uk".

That is a pointless statement. As Lead is not banned in the UK yet, it is no surprise that the majority of hunters are still using Lead loads.

tudderone · 11-12-2019 2:47pm

ZiabR wrote: »

That is another nail in the coffin alright. Has anyone here used Steel shot in any great amount for game? I have been reading and watching videos about it in the UK as they are ahead of where we are. It does seem that steel shot is fine, with little to no difference (up to a certain range). Where the question marks start to come in is on high birds, after a certain range the velocity does drop off significantly faster with the steel shot.

The general consensus is that greener cartridges (bio degradable wads etc) and steel loads are perfectly viable for 85% of birds, but confidence is lost on high birds and birds beyond a certain range.

From Diggory Hadoke's excellent blog (you may remember him as the guy who had a row with Pier Morgan on the telly a while back).

https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/waitrose-ban-lead-shot-birds

"If other food outlets join Waitrose in rejecting lead-shot game, then shoots will have no choice but to insist that their Guns arrive with non-toxic loads, which means steel if affordability is going to be a factor.

I have spoken to shooters in Belgium and they detest steel; it rips the flesh and causes more bleeding than lead shot as well as being less immediately lethal, leading to more lost birds and more suffering. They have no choice but to use it. That does not mean they like it.’

The grim reality of the situation we are facing is that lead ammunition may well no longer be available to British sportsmen in as little as two years."

Grizzly 45 · 12-12-2019 4:05am

ZiabR wrote: »

That being said, I cannot see how steel shot can be used for rifles. A solid load would pass straight through an animal meaning far more wounded targets. Lead is a much more humane load.

There are so many grey areas around the lead shot ban, perhaps it will settle on some kind of middle ground, if it settles at all.

Under the EU directive all steel bullets are classified as Armour piercing munitions (which it technically is) and therefore Cat A prohibited munitions.

meathstevie · 12-12-2019 6:51am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Under the EU directive all steel bullets are classified as Armour piercing munitions (which it technically is) and therefore Cat A prohibited munitions.

Being a bit pedantic but what is the definition of armour ?

Grizzly 45 · 12-12-2019 11:40am

Knowing the EU dictatorship wherever it wants it to be.

Mississippi. · 15-12-2019 12:40am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Europen Chemical Agency wants to hear from its EU subjects on why they should NOT ban lead in ammo.
You chance to vent your spleen ,politely of course,,with these people.

https://comments.echa.europa.eu/comments_cms/CallForEvidence.aspx?RObjectId=0b0236e184015b61&fbclid=IwAR3EU_eAwJrAWB06bWReo07Uv70KiUgGubAK

Just a reminder to all, the deadline for submissions is this Monday night.

GooseB · 15-12-2019 8:00pm

Just filled in the form/questionnaire. I don't have a lot of information on the subject but I put down as best as I could the impacts it would have on my sport where relevant. At least I've tried something.

Grizzly 45 · 19-12-2019 10:55pm

From the Czech shooting group LEX a very comprehensive report and study on Lead Vs Non lead bullets in real life shooting. Please read and pass onto your clubs or revelant shooting orgs.

https://www.gunlex.cz/en/3595-comparative-test-of-lead-and-nonlead-ammunition?fbclid=IwAR3Wif3_hmfADc3JViJKRdeH4VhoQtQp5GdRG27tPlbdZY0pSHjs4Ugks9c

Grizzly 45 · 09-01-2020 2:31pm

Read,respond and pass onto your reps folks.Time is starting to run out and we need to keep the pressure up.Especially on the ECHA nonsense about steel shot being safe in certain firearms.:mad:

https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead-in-shot-bullets-and-fishing-weights?fbclid=IwAR3DX698-ScWva9HiNkvlLu3Y0WooXeVsv2ZfbTo4ddOg9tdFMKwYBRsC2Q

Grizzly 45 · 08-02-2020 9:01pm

Looks like this was shot down again.But like Jason in Fri the 13th films,it keeps coming back!

https://firearms-united.com/fi/euammoban-phase-i-shot-down-again/?fbclid=IwAR1LbeXG46s816rWfYg4wPDubkAniEnD5PlzLkKAFndXBPcGLz0lIMDx7XE

yubabill · 08-02-2020 10:44pm

AFAIK Lehigh ammunition have a range of devastating copper bullets available in the US.

They were CNC-machining them, but seem to have found a more cost-effective manufacturing process making them more affordable and they are trying to develop even 22LR ammo.

Getting the feeling that the EU have a mendacious attitude towards shooting (if that wasn't already obvious from their actions forcing through the last Directive) but this lead ban could fall foul of the law of unintended consequences, where we actually get better ammunition.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/12/11/sneak-peek-lehigh-defense-develops-22lr-ammo-with-solid-xd-bullets/

tudderone · 08-02-2020 11:20pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Looks like this was shot down again.But like Jason in Fri the 13th films,it keeps coming back!

https://firearms-united.com/fi/euammoban-phase-i-shot-down-again/?fbclid=IwAR1LbeXG46s816rWfYg4wPDubkAniEnD5PlzLkKAFndXBPcGLz0lIMDx7XE

Someone from the eu said when a referendum did not pass in France, "It doesn't matter, we have 50 ways of getting what we want without anyone voting for it". Thats what you are up against.

Grizzly 45 · 09-02-2020 1:06pm

So with attitudes like that,why would anyone want to be part of this EU Soviet??

tudderone · 09-02-2020 4:15pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So with attitudes like that,why would anyone want to be part of this EU Soviet??

Shure why wouldn't ya, free money and cushy jobs, even if as an ex-td you can barely read or write :rolleyes:.

garrettod · 10-02-2020 1:33am

Looking forward to breaking my tooth on a bit of steel shot :-(

tudderone · 10-02-2020 1:53pm

garrettod wrote: »

Looking forward to breaking my tooth on a bit of steel shot :-(

In fairness Garrett, i know people who have done so on lead shot.

garrettod · 11-02-2020 12:21am

tudderone wrote: »

In fairness Garrett, i know people who have done so on lead shot.

If it had to be one of the other, think the lead would be a bit softer.

tudderone · 24-02-2020 3:06pm

Nine shooting orgs in the UK, including BASC, call for a ban on lead shot again 2024.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/24/uk-hunting-groups-call-for-end-to-use-of-lead-ammunition-by-2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882fL2YuyyA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqmR7oCHBpk

ZiabR · 24-02-2020 3:29pm

Was about to post those videos, particularly the one from Field Sports UK. So the Lead ban it is now being supported by every association in the UK. The steel shot train has left the station and is well on its way to the rest of Europe.

Grizzly 45 · 24-02-2020 9:45pm

Still can be headed off at EU pass mind.
This is now going into the EU autocracy, as it was the EU parliament that rejected the LB proposal report.Which has now annoyed their holinesses of the EU comission.Who are now deciding to over rule both the EU parliment and finding of the report,and go it alone to bring in legislation!!!IOW fuk the democratic procedures and fuk your opinions in the EU parliment,they want this so it will happen!!!

So it would now behove us to point this fact out to our MEPs that they are just talking heads and have no power if those in the comission can override their procedures and consensus.

Someone might want to give NARGC and FACE a nudge on this point,while they enjoy their doze???
As well as the minor fact that the Irish MEPs they are palling about are NOT PRO GUN at all in Brussels?To wit O Sullivan (Green) Mc Guinness(FG)and the SF one whose name skips me at the moment ,but whose hubby likes singing "come out ye black&tans,"when he wins elections.Just because they are Irish does ot make them on our sides.

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Lead ban

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