Norwegian Air International discussion

Irish Steve · 07-04-2018 5:14pm

ironclaw wrote: »

Awesome insight folks. Thanks!

As a follow-up, if you hire a charter at this level, I presume its a blank canvas in terms of a paint job and you just provide the crew? Must make for a weird passenger experience with zero branding on show.

With ACMI, the only thing with the airline branding on it will be the catering,as the crew will most likely come with the aircraft, so unlikely to be in the uniform of the carrier they are operating for. In the same vein, it's unlikely that the In Flight entertainment systems will have any of the original carrier branding, so it will be a very generic experience. There may be one or two cabin crew on the flight from Norwegian, but that will depend on how the lease in has been structured.

One of the reasons for this is that Norwegian will probably not have cabin crew with A340 type training, so it will be necessary to bring the cabin crew with the aircraft, and any Norwegian cabin crew will have to be in excess of the legal number required to operate the flight.

Locker10a · 07-04-2018 5:25pm

ironclaw wrote: »

Awesome insight folks. Thanks!

As a follow-up, if you hire a charter at this level, I presume its a blank canvas in terms of a paint job and you just provide the crew? Must make for a weird passenger experience with zero branding on show.

Once you step into the aircraft nothing is branded Norwegian and nothing looks or feels like Norwegian. An ACMI lease is most often used as a “rescue “ flight for exceptional circumstances where they’re wouldn’t be time to organise things, it’s essentially a last minute unplanned lease which is also why it’s soo costly .
Occasionally airlines hire in other charter companies to boost capacity on a particular route for peak summer season for example, both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have done this in the past, but this would be agreed and planned months in advance.

everlast75 · 11-04-2018 9:37am

recently travelled to Stewart with Norwegian.
All perfectly fine apart from

1) in the weeks running up to the flights, the times were updated and changed numerous times
2) the flight out was delayed by nearly 3 hours as the pilot's licence had expired and he was not allowed fly! They had to fly in a pilot from Scotland who then flew us to NYC.
3) The flight home was also delayed
4) Meals looked TINY!

Apart from that, all okay and would recommend

roundymac · 11-04-2018 11:17am

Locker10a wrote: »

Once you step into the aircraft nothing is branded Norwegian and nothing looks or feels like Norwegian. An ACMI lease is most often used as a “rescue “ flight for exceptional circumstances where they’re wouldn’t be time to organise things, it’s essentially a last minute unplanned lease which is also why it’s soo costly .
Occasionally airlines hire in other charter companies to boost capacity on a particular route for peak summer season for example, both Aer Lingus and Ryanair have done this in the past, but this would be agreed and planned months in advance.

There are several types of lease,
1. Wet lease= Full ACMI
2. Damp Lease,
3. Dry Lease.
The last two I am not going to explain because I'm not sure what each one represents, I'll leave that to the experts on here, suffice to say that one is aircraft only, and another one is aircraft and a certain ammount of supports ; ie; crew insurence etc. As I said I'll leave others to fill in the blanks.

Tabnabs · 12-04-2018 10:44am

IAG SA is considering a bid for Norwegian Air Shuttle ASA, in a potential deal that would help the owner of British Airways boost its market share amid increasing competition from low-cost carriers, Bloomberg News reports.

Norwegian Air’s stock price jumped as much as 26 percent on news of a potential deal.

Developing...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-12/british-airways-owner-considers-bid-for-norwegian-air

Things could get very interesting.

12-04-2018 12:01pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-12/british-airways-owner-considers-bid-for-norwegian-air

Things could get very interesting.

4.6% share purchase by IAG confirmed by NAX

EDIT; Just an FYI. I moved the IAG buying stake in NAX posts to their own thread. This could be an ongoing discussion and will clutter up the discussion about NAX routes themselves

JCX BXC · 13-04-2018 9:58am

Shannon - Stewart going daily for the winter. Clear attempt to attack Aer Lingus here in my eyes!

goingnowhere · 13-04-2018 11:11am

JCX BXC wrote: »

Bizzare move really, there's no market for 13 weekly flights to the New York region in the heart of the winter, last year there was only 2! The losses they could accumulate here are eye watering.

Aer Lingus will have the advantage of freight as well as connecting flights onwards within the US to drive numbers.

Jamie2k9 · 13-04-2018 11:43am

DUB-SWF also planned for 2 daily and PVD daily over winter.

JCX BXC · 13-04-2018 4:10pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Aer Lingus will have the advantage of freight as well as connecting flights onwards within the US to drive numbers.

Yes, however they haven't operated New York at that time of year in a long long time. Is there enough room in the market to go from 2 flights a week to the New York region this JAN-MAR to 13 flights a week to the New York region next JAN-MAR

goingnowhere · 13-04-2018 4:13pm

Its going to hurt DY a lot more than EI on revenue as EI has some diversity whereas DY is point to point low fare passenger

Locker10a · 13-04-2018 5:02pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

goingnowhere wrote: »

Aer Lingus will have the advantage of freight as well as connecting flights onwards within the US to drive numbers.

Yes, however they haven't operated New York at that time of year in a long long time. Is there enough room in the market to go from 2 flights a week to the New York region this JAN-MAR to 13 flights a week to the New York region next JAN-MAR

There’s no doubt about it, both will make a loss on this route for those months, but who’s loss will be worse/more destructive ?
I guess the benefit for EI is they can maintain a few high end business travellers who appreciate the frequency and connectivity, they may also benefit from cargo on this flight but I don’t know the details of their cargo business ex-SNN.
Norwegian on the other hand will attract a few tourists if their fares are low enough. But that time of year it seems the market is small for this route, but who knows, I can’t see them turning much profit unless the manage to fill their planes everyday with decent fares that don’t just make a complete loss.

Cloudio9 · 13-04-2018 8:48pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Bizzare move really, there's no market for 13 weekly flights to the New York region in the heart of the winter, last year there was only 2! The losses they could accumulate here are eye watering.

There’s always a market for New York. It’s a great place to visit 52 weeks of the year.

Norwegian are making a market, not cannibalising a finite existing market.

For example for the first time my family summer holiday in July this year is to the US because I can get there on Norwegian cheaper than Aer Lingus or Ryanair can get me to France or Spain. That’s a new market.

Whether they can make it work or not long term is a different matter.

JCX BXC · 13-04-2018 9:02pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

There’s always a market for New York. It’s a great place to visit 52 weeks of the year.

Norwegian are making a market, not cannibalising a finite existing market.

For example for the first time my family summer holiday in July this year is to the US because I can get there on Norwegian cheaper than Aer Lingus or Ryanair can get me to France or Spain. That’s a new market.

Whether they can make it work or not long term is a different matter.

So they're making a market, but not a long-term one?

You can make a market where there's not been one before, granted, however flights to New York have existed from Shannon from it's beginning! There's simply no room for that level of flights in Jan-Mar, and I'd suspect Norwegian will see some eyewateringly low loads.

Cloudio9 · 13-04-2018 9:13pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

So they're making a market, but not a long-term one?

You can make a market where there's not been one before, granted, however flights to New York have existed from Shannon from it's beginning! There's simply no room for that level of flights in Jan-Mar, and I'd suspect Norwegian will see some eyewateringly low loads.

I said it’s a question if it’s long term because we don’t know.

Making a market is what Ryanair does. It creates new traffic that did t previously exist largely due to pricing.

Locker10a · 13-04-2018 9:18pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

JCX BXC wrote: »

So they're making a market, but not a long-term one?

You can make a market where there's not been one before, granted, however flights to New York have existed from Shannon from it's beginning! There's simply no room for that level of flights in Jan-Mar, and I'd suspect Norwegian will see some eyewateringly low loads.

I said it’s a question if it’s long term because we don’t know.

Making a market is what Ryanair does. It creates new traffic that did t previously exist largely due to pricing.

Correct, but look at how many “markets” Ryanair have created over the years that no longer exist, because they weren’t sustainable and more money was to be made elsewhere. Ironically, most of the niche Ryanair markets they opened 10/15 years ago have been retreated to the traditional markets with Ryanair moving into main proper airports.

JCX BXC · 13-04-2018 9:20pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

I said it’s a question if it’s long term because we don’t know.

Making a market is what Ryanair does. It creates new traffic that did t previously exist largely due to pricing.

Making markets where markets haven't existed before, or where they were highly price. The Shannon - New York market is neither, with Norwegian only marginally cheaper at Shannon if at all. Their Shannon - Stewart twice a week flight had a rough LF of 75% in December, when travel is higher due to Christmas and only competing with Aer Lingus. Where will they be in the much quieter Feburary at a much higher frequency? There's only so many people that can travel the route, and without any cargo or connecting passengers it's going to cost them to run this route.

Great for the consumer however, I'll be interested in seeing what deals they'll have to try get passengers to fly!

Cloudio9 · 13-04-2018 9:45pm

Locker10a wrote: »

Correct, but look at how many “markets” Ryanair have created over the years that no longer exist, because they weren’t sustainable and more money was to be made elsewhere. Ironically, most of the niche Ryanair markets they opened 10/15 years ago have been retreated to the traditional markets with Ryanair moving into main proper airports.

Eh ok, so things are always changing in aviation.

I suspect most of the Ryanair changes are “proper” airports moving to Ryanair rather than Ryanair moving to “proper” airports.

JCX BXC · 13-04-2018 9:48pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Eh ok, so things are always changing in aviation.

I suspect most of the Ryanair changes are “proper” airports moving to Ryanair rather than Ryanair moving to “proper” airports.

Is that why all their flights from Frankfurt are at off peak times?

I'd completely disgree with that statement to be honest.

L1011 · 13-04-2018 10:10pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Eh ok, so things are always changing in aviation.

I suspect most of the Ryanair changes are “proper” airports moving to Ryanair rather than Ryanair moving to “proper” airports.

You suspect wrong.

The airports that FR have entered after saying they would never go there are because FR wanted to serve them. They made damn sure they were never going to get sweetheart deals due to the screaming about how dear they were - and most are state-owned and can't give the deals that the old FR wanted anyway.

The market moved to not want awful ex-military fields 100km away from the destination and FR moved as a result. You can see that the lower-yield routes are generally still at the outer airport in most cases

As goes peak times, the LCC requirement for extreme aircraft utilisation means that often the frames are in the air at the times you would consider peak for departures - its the only way to get the number of flights & seats per day required out of the frame. This is one of the reasons that Stobart - with props - can compete solidly with the much lower CASM 737s of FR on UK commuter routes; as they operate at the times people want rather than the times that suit an LCC high usage schedule.

Locker10a · 13-04-2018 10:16pm

Cloudio9 wrote: »

Locker10a wrote: »

Correct, but look at how many “markets” Ryanair have created over the years that no longer exist, because they weren’t sustainable and more money was to be made elsewhere. Ironically, most of the niche Ryanair markets they opened 10/15 years ago have been retreated to the traditional markets with Ryanair moving into main proper airports.

Eh ok, so things are always changing in aviation.

I suspect most of the Ryanair changes are “proper” airports moving to Ryanair rather than Ryanair moving to “proper” airports.

Well it’s unlikely airports like AMS, FRA, MUC, BCN etc were struggling and desperately needing Ryanair!!!
What true is that Ryanair have moved into these markets over the past few years as it’s an established and lucrative market.
Even when Ryanair were “creating markets” the scale of cost for them was totally different to long haul transatlantic ops. Ryanair could operate multiple times per day on the same aircraft carrying hundreds of passengers and selling extras to all of them.
Norwegian get one flight each way on their transatlantic routes, the same opportunity to make money and make up for loss leader fares just doesn’t exist on the same scale at all, not even close !

HTCOne · 14-04-2018 11:10am

L1011 wrote: »

This is one of the reasons that Stobart - with props - can compete solidly with the much lower CASM 737s of FR on UK commuter routes; as they operate at the times people want rather than the times that suit an LCC high usage schedule.

The ATR72 has the lowest CASM of any commercial airliner apparently.

Irish Steve · 14-04-2018 1:18pm

As it's not an abbreviation that crops up too often, to save people going searching elsewhere CASM = Cost per Available Seat Mile.

Going forward, if posters are going to use an obscure abbreviation like this PLEASE PUT THE FULL EXPANSION in to the post

JCX BXC · 14-04-2018 1:31pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

As it's not an abbreviation that crops up too often, to save people going searching elsewhere CASM = Cost per Available Seat Mile.

Going forward, if posters are going to use an obscure abbreviation like this PLEASE PUT THE FULL EXPANSION in to the post

I didn't know it, but didn't take much to search it and find out to be honest.

The thing that I find strange here is that Aer Lingus regional flights are higher fares in general. With such an attractive CASM, why are they so expensive?

Jamie2k9 · 14-04-2018 1:42pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

I didn't know it, but didn't take much to search it and find out to be honest.

The thing that I find strange here is that Aer Lingus regional flights are higher fares in general. With such an attractive CASM, why are they so expensive?

Couple of reasons, ST can't afford to absorb taxes and charges which bigger players can and do from time to time. ST will want to cover all taxes/charges, EI fee and make a small profit.

Irish Steve · 14-04-2018 2:18pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

I didn't know it, but didn't take much to search it and find out to be honest.

On a laptop with a decent browser, a quick google search and all is good, but on something like a smartphone, with a less helpful browser, and finding something obscure like that needs some time and effort.

The objective is to try and make the Boards.ie experience a nice one, rather than it being frustrating for reasons that we can manage, even though there are times when we can't control them.

And yes, I'm also trying to make the topics on this forum relevant, and trying to avoid off topic posts that don't actually add significantly to the conversation.

Not everybody has the in depth exposure to aviation that makes it easier to understand the buzz words and abbreviations that are used within the industry

NH2013 · 14-04-2018 2:27pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

I didn't know it, but didn't take much to search it and find out to be honest.

The thing that I find strange here is that Aer Lingus regional flights are higher fares in general. With such an attractive CASM, why are they so expensive?

Probably as they’re a commercial company out to make a profit and will charge as much as they can get away with that people are prepared to pay, they are not a charity or state run public service airline. All comes down to their yeild management department.

Lower CASM simply mean that they can still turn a profit on routes that may not demand as much of a premium from passengers.

JCX BXC · 14-04-2018 2:29pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

On a laptop with a decent browser, a quick google search and all is good, but on something like a smartphone, with a less helpful browser, and finding something obscure like that needs some time and effort.

Just to point out, I am using a smartphone.

Tenger · 14-04-2018 3:19pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Just to point out, I am using a smartphone.

That’s great but you missed the point above about trying to make stuff clearer to other users.

JCX BXC · 14-04-2018 3:28pm

Tenger wrote: »

That’s great but you missed the point above about trying to make stuff clearer to other users.

No, I just refrained from replying in order to take the comment of "trying to avoid off topic posts that don't actually add significantly to the conversation."

Norwegian Air International discussion

Comments