The Sub 4 Support Thread

Joining in, ran DCM last year in 4:23, goal is under 4 this year.
Running with a club so i've a coach's plan, i think i can do it if i stay injury free.
My main goal is to enjoy it as much as i did last year, enjoyed every minute, amazing atmosphere.
If i can enjoy it and hit under 4 i'll be thrilled!

eyrie wrote: »

Question for those of you following (or planning to follow) the grads intermediate plan - how are you fitting in build up races? There aren't any in the plan but it seems like they're important to do, maybe?
I'm still dithering about plans overall but curious about how this would work.

I'm doing this at the moment. Only race I have picked as a definite is the Tullamore half at the end of August. I will be avoiding the race series as if it were a locust ridden plague. I don't plan to taper for any races and to run them how I feel on the day. But like you I could be swayed by advice.

eyrie wrote: »

:eek: :eek: So you wouldn't recommend them then??



Interesting. I think I would want to run one or two as reasonably full race efforts (mini taper maybe?) to get a sense of how training is going. It all feels so unknown/unknowable really!

They don't do sandwiches!!! And I'm working every day they are on. And even if I took the day off parking is a pain.

Thursday is easy miles on the plan, Friday is rest. For me the races will replace the weekend work.

eyrie wrote: »

Question for those of you following (or planning to follow) the grads intermediate plan - how are you fitting in build up races? There aren't any in the plan but it seems like they're important to do, maybe?
I'm still dithering about plans overall but curious about how this would work.

Did you decide on a plan? I'm dithering about a plan too... Can't make up my mind. Following a half marathon plan that I found someplace but I'm finding the session days a little easy so I'm trying to find something that suits me.....

I'm also planning to do the tullamore half. Did it in 2014 and I thought it was a brilliant race. Thinking of basing my training around my half marathon pace for the time being then assessing where I'm at later in summer. But not sure if that's the right approach

Murph_D wrote: »

If you are doing Dublin marathon your specific training would be starting usually mid-July (assuming a 17-18 week schedule). I’d forget about a HM plan unless you’ve decided that a half is your goal race. I’d say it’s better to just concentrate on base mileage, a weekly speed session, the odd tempo (maybe at parkrun) and a longer weekend run until start of the marathon block. Stick to the knitting, and keep the main thing the main thing!

Thanks... Appreciate the advice. Guess I'm not really targeting the half but would like a decent performance before the marathon. Would be aiming for a time of 1:40.

Would this sound like an OK base for the next few weeks?
In line with the plan I was following, currently doing 2 runs of 50-55 mins. One of these might include a tempo effort for some of the session.
1 interval /speed session (this week was 5 x 5mins)
A long run (now up to 100mins - will increase this up to 2 hrs)
A another run which currently 50 mins (planning on upping this each wk too by 10mins)

Murph_D wrote: »

Sounds mostly OK. Wouldn’t bother increasing the long run until you’re into the marathon block - better to introduce a sixth day of around 30-40 mins easy/recovery. Try to get up to at least 35 miles, preferably a little more.

You can run a decent half during the marathon training. 1:40 sounds a tad ambitious for a 4-hr marathoner however, although everyone is different.

Agreed. Anything 1:45ish would be bang on. By all means aim for better but don't be disappointed if it's a wee bit more.

ewc78 wrote: »

Are you saying someone who is going for a sub 4hr Marathon should be able run a 1:45 half?

No not exactly. It's not a necessity by any means.

At the same time, to be able to face into the marathon with a fair degree of confidence, yes. I remember when I joined the novice thread last year I had a 1:48 half previously and the advice was that I should look to get it down a bit.
If I recall correctly a few of us who did DCM in 3:47 to 3:57 had half times between 1:40 and 1:47 in the race series half.
Of course people are different so I'm sure there are many who can go sub 4 off a slower half.

These threads compare people's half marathon times and marathon times

On the half marathon time milestones for a 4hr marathon.

I paced the Dublin Marathon twice for the 4hr group (3:59:50 and 3:59:30) and trained a large group of ladies for the second one. The question often popped up. In fairness context is everything.

If the sub 4 attempt is your first marathon or you have brought the goal down from slower pervious marathons, then training miles at your marathon pace in the latter half of your long run is the key thing. You are putting the miles in general in training and have the capacity to belt out a half marathon in 1:40-1:50. That's all good. The problem is it does not come close to where your glycogen depletion will be after 3 hours. If your body is hurting after 90 mins of the half you only have to "suffer" for another 10-15 minutes and mentally this is not much when you are training for a marathon. With the effort biting at 3 hours in a 4 hours marathon that last hour is a very long time!

That's why it is crucial to practice marathon paces miles after you have been on your feet for 2hrs+
Your long runs for a 4hr marathon likely take you up to 19-20 miles or circa 3hrs. Being able to run your marathon pace for the second half of a 3 hour long run and finish feeling good would be a better indicator than a 1:45 half marathon in my opinion.

So, while that half marathon is a good indicator that your training is going well and a benchmark that you are on track. It has little bearing on what your marathon result is likely to be.

as shotgun says, context is everything.

The classic mistake novice runners make is that they only have one pace - they don't do faster intervals, and they don't do slow miles. Every run is just "go out and run". They don't really adapt to long runs, they just survive them. That makes them reasonably fit for a half marathon, but not ready for a marathon.

If you train properly, know how to pace yourself, get the miles in, you don't have to be much slower in the marathon than the half.

Thanks for advice. This is interesting discussion and gives some food for thought. Am maybe being a little ambitious with half time - my 10k pb is 44.2x so was basing a time of 1.40 off the mcmillan calculator. Think I would need to do at specific/focused training for it to achieve this...



Just wondering about those 'progression long runs' (where you run at planned marathon pace for the last few mins - maybe they have a technical name?). Would you do this on every long run - for instance - I'm doing a 13 mile run this week - should I up the tempo for the last 4-5, and on every long run from here on in - or is it a strategy you use conservatively (e.g. every second or third run)?

Just catching up on this thread and it's put the fear in me too. Haven't raced a HM in over a year so not sure what I'm capable of.
Just signed up for the DCM half after reading this:o

Just one thing jumping out at me when I read a lot of these posts....train to your present fitness level. It's a mantra we have on the novices thread and it equally applies here. Train to your present capability not to some aspirational goal time. Use a recent race time to calculate training paces, train to this pace, race again, hopefully need a faster training pace.

pac_man wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's wise to run with someone that is doing the even splits on a course like the Dublin Marathon as the course is quite undulating. I like to dictate my own pace rather than on someone else watch and I like a bit of breathing space. I could only image you'd be nearly
tripping over people in the first half a 4 hour marathon pace group.

On the other hand, you might be one of these runners that thrives in running with a big group. There's a sense of camaraderie that you're running with like minded people with the same objective of wanting to run
a marathon in under 4 hours. You don't have to worry about splits or looking at the watch as the pacer is doing it. You'll also have pacers giving all the positive vibes which are helpful in the later stages of the marathon.

You'll get conflicting views on this but ultimately it's down to personal preference.

With my 4 hour pacer hat on you can have both. The 4hr pace group for DCM is huge. Its great fun but very busy and some did trip over. The balloons we had were huge and hard to miss. I don't understand the need to glue yourself to a pacer. Hanging back 50m may seem so far but its only 10secoinds away and you may have much more room. Just keep the pacer in sight. Much easier than running ahead and keep looking back to ensure you are not losing them. As the group thins out after 15miles you could reel in a few metres every mile, pass the pacers in the last mile leaving them behind knowing you've got it!