NI Marriage Equality - Needs to be an election issue for the DUP. Not just petitions.

12Phase · 07-04-2016 10:27am #1

I'm just watching this as an occasional visitor to Northern Ireland, but I'm a bit frustrated with the very apolitical approach being taken when it comes to marriage equality.

Unless this turns into a very big election issue for the DUP or unless their share of the vote reduces substantially, they'll just continue to block the legislation. All the online petitions in the world will fall on deaf ears. They're hard-line religious conservatives and I can't really see that ever changing.

People have to look at more than just the border issue and the Unionist vs Nationalist arguments when voting and more people need to engage.

Only 54.5% voted in assembly elections in 2011.

I can fully understand why many people may be turned off by the political system up there but, if the turnout is low the then the tail wags the dog and you'll end up with these Bible Belt and sectarian politics driving the agenda.

It would seem to me that the single biggest thing that would have an impact would be mobilising socially progressive unionist and people who might not be aligned either way and encouraging them to register and vote for anyone other than DUP, preferably parties with a progressive social policy outlook!

Ten of Swords · 07-04-2016 12:50pm

Their use of a petition of concern to overturn the majority vote in favour of same sex marriage was very low.

A petition of concern is a mechanism specifically designed to shield communities from political abuse in Northern Ireland and it was grossly misused last November.

12Phase · 07-04-2016 1:01pm

Yeah it was a fairly serious misuse of the mechanism and I think that probably needs to be investigated as it will turn what is a valuable system into a joke.

Ten of Swords · 09-04-2016 2:18pm

Good article about petitions of concern

Well the election is due in a month and the DUP have made their position clear, they have said they will continue to block same sex marriage in their 2016 manifesto and while they have the majority of MLAs (38) they can make good on that threat.

About 2 weeks ago this video made by a 15 year old with same sex parents asking his MLA to explain why he voted to block marriage equality went up on youtube. It is articulate, well reasoned and puts forward a powerful message about accountability and discrimination. Fair play to him.

Niemoj · 09-04-2016 6:40pm

Hopefully come May the DUP is absolutely obliterated. The North last had elections in 2011 I believe and so much has changed since then that I hope that people's opinions and indeed who they vote for has changed too!

12Phase · 09-04-2016 7:17pm

Very unlikely unfortunately. People vote along the sectarian divide and the turnout is typically very low.

Ten of Swords · 10-04-2016 3:58pm

That's such a shame because this poll was conducted just after the ROI marriage referendum and it showed high support for marriage equality in NI.

The poll found that people living in Greater Belfast are more likely to back gay marriage than those living in other areas of Northern Ireland - at 75% versus 63% respectively.

It must be difficult for LGBT members of the unionist community knowing the government and elected representatives are not supportive, but you vote for them anyway because that's the way it is.

12Phase · 10-04-2016 3:59pm

It's a broken system though. Most votes up there are still cast on issues of national identity, not policy. I suspect the DUP's LGBT stuff is 'riding in' on that rather than being a major voting issue.

Ten of Swords · 28-04-2016 10:52pm

Sinn Fein are looking to put it front and center of their manifesto. Not sure how much good that will do now, it's the final week before the vote.

Belfast Telegraph article

Latest opinion poll predicts that DUP and Sinn Fein will slightly increase holdings at the expense of SDLP and Independents.

Rick_ · 29-04-2016 9:46am

Interesting on that little screenshot of the DUP's manifesto they say they want to bring another law in line with the rest of the UK, but don't want to bring marriage equality in line with the rest of the UK. So, they want to be like the rest of the UK, but only the parts that suit them. :rolleyes:

12Phase · 02-05-2016 4:46pm

A la carte unionism ...

It seems to me they're actually trying to be part of a UK that ceased to exist in about 1950 when it comes to some of their policies.

On social issues like this, they seem to be far more in line with aspects of the US Republican Party than the UK political mainstream.

Leonard Hofstadter · 02-05-2016 11:40pm

12Phase wrote: »

A la carte unionism ...

It seems to me they're actually trying to be part of a UK that ceased to exist in about 1950 when it comes to some of their policies.

On social issues like this, they seem to be far more in line with aspects of the US Republican Party than the UK political mainstream.

It's very odd indeed. Most people in NI actually do favour marriage equality irrespective of the sectarian divide. Northern Ireland is certainly a more socially conservative country than anywhere else in the UK or Ireland, but it's not the provincial backwater the DUP would like to think it is.

They say they want to be like the rest of the UK, but they don't really. Sure the whole furore about the flags was another example, what was proposed with the flags would actually have brought NI in line with the rest of the UK but no the DUP didn't want that. A la carte Unionism would be a better way to describe it. They don't have much time for the English up there either, it's more of a bond with the Scots they have more than anything in my experience, and even then, Scotland has moved on too what with over 40% of their population still wanting independence from the rest of the UK.

Ten of Swords · 01-11-2016 9:09pm

In an interview with BBC last week Arlene Foster said that the DUP will use a 'petition of concern' to stop any attempts to change the law regarding the definition of marriage in Northern Ireland (no surprises there) but she also said that Internet trolls were influencing her decision on this,

If activists want to have a conversation about where they are coming from, do they seriously think they are going to influence me by sending me abuse?

No, they are not going to influence me by sending me abuse - in fact, they are going to send me in the opposite direction and people need to reflect on that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37791366

She has also said that many gay people in Northern Ireland don't want marriage redefined and are happy to live in a civil partnership (probably true) but as a result the whole debate has become a 'storm in a teacup'.

Video extract of the interview in this link,

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-37798592

I find her comments very surprising, particularly coming from a political leader. As first minister she is tasked with looking after all citizens of Northern Ireland, not just the ones she approves of. The complete unwillingness to debate the issue and the valid threat to use petitions of concern to counter the majority of MLAs that support same sex marriage must be a particularly hard slap in the face of any gay person in NI who does want to marry their partner. Looks like this issue will be held in limbo for at least another 5 years.

Annasopra · 01-11-2016 9:24pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I find her comments very surprising, particularly coming from a political leader. As first minister she is tasked with looking after all citizens of Northern Ireland, not just the ones she approves of. The complete unwillingness to debate the issue and the valid threat to use petitions of concern to counter the majority of MLAs that support same sex marriage must be a particularly hard slap in the face of any gay person in NI who does want to marry their partner. Looks like this issue will be held in limbo for at least another 5 years.

I don't find it surprising given the history of her party and indeed Northern Ireland.

http://notchesblog.com/2014/09/16/ian-paisley-1926-2014-and-the-save-ulster-from-sodomy-campaign/

JupiterKid · 02-11-2016 3:13am

The DUP are a bunch of bigots. They'll never change. Sad to be an LGBT person in NI who wants to marry their same-sex partner.

The DUP detest the gay community.

Annasopra · 04-03-2017 4:45am

Petition of concern and DUP veto effectively gone. 1 step closer for marriage equality in NI.

lottpaul · 04-03-2017 2:27pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Petition of concern and DUP veto effectively gone. 1 step closer for marriage equality in NI.

Hopefully so but on BBC today it was reported that Jim Allister of the TUV has said he would sign a petition of concern to block marriage equality. That would mean that just 1 UUP (or other MLA) would be needed to reach the 30 votes needed to trigger the veto.

SILVAMAN · 04-03-2017 6:29pm

That's like asking an Arab country to recognise the state of Israel.

Annasopra · 04-03-2017 7:00pm

lottpaul wrote: »

Hopefully so but on BBC today it was reported that Jim Allister of the TUV has said he would sign a petition of concern to block marriage equality. That would mean that just 1 UUP (or other MLA) would be needed to reach the 30 votes needed to trigger the veto.

Yeah and only 1 UUP candidate said he would support it. With Mike Nesbitt gone it looks to me like the liberal minded UUP could potentially be sidelined. However overall it does weaken the Unionist conservative stranglehold on the issue. As I said - a step closer - maybe not the final step needed yet.

Leonard Hofstadter · 05-03-2017 9:58pm

Well given how much closer SF and the DUP now are in terms of the number of seats, I'd imagine SF will insist upon certain things off the DUP that they couldn't get before otherwise they will allow direct rule. I would hope, given how much of an issue they've made of it recently, that equal marriage will be one of those things - they've also mentioned the Irish Language Act as well as something that they want.

Peregrinus · 07-03-2017 4:38am

SILVAMAN wrote: »

That's like asking an Arab country to recognise the state of Israel.

Ah, but three Arab countries do recognise Israel, including Egypt, which is the most populous Arab country of them all. Never give up hope!

BlinkingLights · 09-03-2017 4:40pm

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks that would likely cause DUP's vote to fall further if the whole thing was just about a homophobic stance.

Annasopra · 09-03-2017 4:48pm

BlinkingLights wrote: »

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks that would likely cause DUP's vote to fall further if the whole thing was just about a homophobic stance.

I think there are other stumbling blocks too plus a lot of the DUP voters support their stance!

BlinkingLights · 09-03-2017 4:49pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think there are other stumbling blocks too plus a lot of the DUP voters support their stance!

A majority of the NI population don't though. It could get very weird.

Ten of Swords · 09-03-2017 8:22pm

BlinkingLights wrote: »

SF could simply make it impossible to form a government if this is blocked again and it would fall over to another election in few weeks

I don't think any party can do that indefinitely, wouldn't that just end in direct rule?

BlinkingLights · 09-03-2017 9:17pm

Ten of Swords wrote: »

I don't think any party can do that indefinitely, wouldn't that just end in direct rule?

It happened before. From 2002 until 2007. Northern Ireland barely has had a decade of continuous devolved government. This one could really be a big test of whether it's capable of self governance without resorting to irreconcilable political differences.

It would be incredibly stupid as they'd entirely lose their voice as Brexit ploughs ahead.

JupiterKid · 19-03-2017 4:34pm

The sad and depressing thing is that the polarised nature of politics in NI along religious/tribal lines means that inter-tribal fighting and one upmanship will always trump much more pressing and important economic and social concerns for the province. As long as SF and the DUP remain the largest political parties up there this won't change.

Sad but sadly true. Instead of focusing on the the fallout of Brexit and what it could mean for NI, the DUP and SF are more concerned with tit for tat sniping at each other. This is to the detriment of NI and reflects a deeply immature political environment.

Ten of Swords · 21-04-2017 8:05pm

Former NI health minister Jim Wells (DUP), who previously opposed lifting the ban on MSM blood donations, has threatened to split the DUP if there is any agreement with Sinn Fein on the issue of same sex marriage in Northern Ireland. I'm kind of surprised that there are murmurings about it in the first place but I think, given their showing in the last election, they have to make some hard choices if they want to retain their position.

Unsurprisingly this dinosaur is throwing a tantrum.

Belfast Telegraph

CiDeRmAn · 10-05-2017 8:22pm

Hi, quick question that popped into my head and this forum and thread seems to fit the bill

Who on earth do Northern Irish unionists, who happen to be LGBTQ, vote for?
There isn't, from what I can see, a "liberal" party that embraces the union in Ulster at all, yet there must be a demographic that's disenfranchised as a result.
On the republican side both major parties appear to be LGBTQ friendly in their outlook, but the unionist side seems bereft of LGBTQ representation.
The Alliance party?
Is this the only answer I wonder?

If this is derailing the thread, feel free to delete.
Thanks!

Annasopra · 10-05-2017 10:22pm

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Hi, quick question that popped into my head and this forum and thread seems to fit the bill

Who on earth do Northern Irish unionists, who happen to be LGBTQ, vote for?
There isn't, from what I can see, a "liberal" party that embraces the union in Ulster at all, yet there must be a demographic that's disenfranchised as a result.
On the republican side both major parties appear to be LGBTQ friendly in their outlook, but the unionist side seems bereft of LGBTQ representation.
The Alliance party?
Is this the only answer I wonder?

If this is derailing the thread, feel free to delete.
Thanks!

Alliance/SDLP/Green Party/PUP/Progressive independent unionists or they just stay UUP/DUP possibly even TUV. There are a lot lgbt voters who would still vote DUP or UUP. UUP has had a few prominent gay members too such as current Cllr Jeffrey Dudgeon (Norn Irons David Norris) and David Trimbles adviser Steven King.
.

CiDeRmAn · 10-05-2017 11:30pm

Thanks for that

NI Marriage Equality - Needs to be an election issue for the DUP. Not just petitions.

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