The Sub 4 Support Thread

smashiner · 15-10-2019 9:49am

68 lost souls wrote: »

Thinking I'll make the call now to just try 4:10 and avoid blowing up altogether for my first time attempting a marathon. Did my last long run last night - 30km averageing 6:25. I tried to push the last 10km to MP but it neded up going 5:45, 5:40, 5:47, 5:48, 5:51, 7:04, 7:17, 7:35, 8:47, 7:49, 6:40. Heart rate climed too high trying to push 5:40s

First 20km was averaging 6:11 pace and was comfortable enough, route had twice the elevation of the marathon route.

Being your first marathon it is probably wise not to push it too hard as you could have a really tough day out and sour the whole marathon debut for you.
Another option could be to have a 'look' at sub 4 and then settle for 4:10 on the day. By that I mean run the first 10K in 58/59 minutes, aim to be around 2:01/2:02 at the halfway point and then decide between 21 and 30K as to what you want to go for.

I had a 'look' at Sub 4 last year and did this plan and I hit about 20/21 miles in and I realised that I was about a minute behind where I needed to be and I was going to have a really tough last 5/6 miles if I kept up the pace and then settled for my 'B' time of 4:10 and then just enjoyed the last 5/6 miles with no pressure and absorbed the atmosphere and finished a tad under 4:08 and had a great day out.

I am going to go with a similar approach this year and see how I go, not quite sure that I will break 4 hours myself as my legs have turned to stone at about 37K in on the past 3 marathons I have done :eek:

You need to start tapering soon (now) as I think that I did too much in my taper last year and felt a bit lethargic/over cooked on the start line and my legs didn't wake up until 10K in....gonna learn from that this year

.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

68 lost souls · 15-10-2019 10:39am

smashiner wrote: »

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Thanks for the input, gives me some food for thought. Taper starts now yeah, Sunday (3x2niles @ MP) and Wednesday (pre-marathon session outlined by the club coach) will be my 2 key sessions.

3 easy sessions is all there is apart from those 2, one is an hour and the other two are just 30 minutes

Bluesquare · 16-10-2019 8:00am

Has everyone settled on a pace plan . I’ve gotten as far as 11k ! 1k@6:00,10k@5:50.

I have been playing with the cool pace charts Kellygirl sent and trying to align paces to simplify it for group running but it’s proving a tough ask !

Has anyone devised a simplified version (In kms) ?

ewc78 · 16-10-2019 8:39am

I like the look of Lazare's pacing from his sub 4. Think I will do something very similar. Will also be taking a gel every 30mins and will have the Garmin programmed to beep to remind me.

Lazare wrote: »

My paceband was vital. It focused on even effort rather than even pace, I set it up for a slight negative split with a downhill limiter. I wasn't a slave to it as such, although my milestone splits were bang on or close to bang on I did feel the need to sway slightly from it here and there.

I got it from here. It's an excellent service, unlike generic pacebands it fully takes the course into account and you can tailor it as you wish. I set it up the way I did based on the advice I got about taking the first half really easily.

Paces were as follows..

9:48
9:19
9:36
8:59
9:55
9:51
9:08
8:40
8:44
8:36
9:03
8:49
9:11
9:31
8:54
8:43
8:53
8:41
8:46
8:44
9:01
9:20
8:49
8:50
8:57
9:16
8:50
3:58:00

Fueling plan was a gel before the gun and every 30 mins.

This obviously all assumes you've ran a ton of MP sessions at 4hr pace, have tapered well, have carb loaded well up until Friday and rested well on Sat.

akenno · 16-10-2019 9:16am

I have done up a very simple plan, maybe too simplistic.

First 11km @ 5.50/km pace
5k @ 5.35/km pace
26.2km @ 5.40/km pace
Total Time: 3:59:25

I think the crucial part for me is not heading out too fast for the first 11 km. Then I plan on picking up the pace for the next 5 to bring me back on track to be at the halfway point under 2 hours.

The second half is all about getting into a rhythm and keeping the legs churning and then see how I am with the last part and if I have anything to give, give it then.

Unthought Known · 16-10-2019 9:59am

akenno wrote: »

I have done up a very simple plan, maybe too simplistic.

First 11km @ 5.50/km pace
5k @ 5.35/km pace
26.2km @ 5.40/km pace
Total Time: 3:59:25

I think the crucial part for me is not heading out too fast for the first 11 km. Then I plan on picking up the pace for the next 5 to bring me back on track to be at the halfway point under 2 hours.

The second half is all about getting into a rhythm and keeping the legs churning and then see how I am with the last part and if I have anything to give, give it then.

Doesn't that plan give you a 4:00:21 finish time? You may have left the .2 off at the end.
Don't forget your watch will have you around 26.4 miles (42.5 km) at the end so pace for that.

ewc78 · 16-10-2019 10:04am

akenno wrote: »

I have done up a very simple plan, maybe too simplistic.

First 11km @ 5.50/km pace
5k @ 5.35/km pace
26.2km @ 5.40/km pace
Total Time: 3:59:25

I think the crucial part for me is not heading out too fast for the first 11 km. Then I plan on picking up the pace for the next 5 to bring me back on track to be at the halfway point under 2 hours.

The second half is all about getting into a rhythm and keeping the legs churning and then see how I am with the last part and if I have anything to give, give it then.

Have you made any allowances for the extra distance you are likely to run?

Kellygirl · 16-10-2019 11:00am

I’m planning on doing the first half in 2:01 and hopefully pick up the pace then and do the 2nd half in 1:58:45. I’ll be going out quite conservatively and have a course specific pace band.

akenno · 16-10-2019 11:43am

Unthought Known wrote: »

Doesn't that plan give you a 4:00:21 finish time? You may have left the .2 off at the end.
Don't forget your watch will have you around 26.4 miles (42.5 km) at the end so pace for that.

Thanks had forgotten that indeed.

I'll try to pick up the pace somewhere in that last section to account for it

passinginterest · 16-10-2019 12:05pm

Kellygirl wrote: »

I’m planning on doing the first half in 2:01 and hopefully pick up the pace then and do the 2nd half in 1:58:45. I’ll be going out quite conservatively and have a course specific pace band.

Pretty much the same myself. 2.01ish and 1.58ish

No quicker than 9.20 first 7 miles with mile 3 around 9.30.
8&9 around 9 even, 10-15 9.05 to 9.12 range. 16 and 17 a little over 9. 18-20 just under 9. 21-22 9-9.05 range, 23-24 8.50ish and to the end around 9 depending on how things feel.

Bluesquare · 16-10-2019 5:41pm

Does nobody deal in kms in these parts ðŸ˜

I need a Km plan suitable for a group . It’s just way to hard to do !!! Tomorrow I’ll try again tomorrow .

After 7 mile does anybody know off hand what Kms stick out as been particularly needy of a slower pace . The pacing spreadsheet I’m looking has paces per every 2k.

ewc78 · 16-10-2019 8:06pm

So last workout out done. 10 miles with 8 at MP.
Felt really good, averaged 8:50 per mile for MP section.
The notes for the meno plan said it should feel easy and it did. Nice bit of a confidence boost to be honest.

skyblue46 · 16-10-2019 8:16pm

Bluesquare wrote: »

Does nobody deal in kms in these parts ðŸ˜

I need a Km plan suitable for a group . It’s just way to hard to do !!! Tomorrow I’ll try again tomorrow .

After 7 mile does anybody know off hand what Kms stick out as been particularly needy of a slower pace . The pacing spreadsheet I’m looking has paces per every 2k.

Just try this and use Kms as your units....I'd say conservative start also.

https://findmymarathon.com/pacebandresult.php?race=Dublin%20Marathon

Griff75 · 17-10-2019 10:48pm

Haven’t posted in a while but hoping to get the sub 4 this time around too. Training has gone ok I haven’t raced but have done a few MP long runs with my last being 21 miles with the last 16 @ MP. I’m not going to overthink the pacing I’m just going to take it easy until Castleknock and ease into 8.45-9 min miles for the rest of it.

Murph_D · 18-10-2019 11:13pm

Griff75 wrote: »

Haven’t posted in a while but hoping to get the sub 4 this time around too. Training has gone ok I haven’t raced but have done a few MP long runs with my last being 21 miles with the last 16 @ MP. I’m not going to overthink the pacing I’m just going to take it easy until Castleknock and ease into 8.45-9 min miles for the rest of it.

Do let us know how you got on. 21 with 16 @ MP is definitely something that either makes or breaks you! Best of luck.

smashiner · 21-10-2019 9:51am

Well guys,
I can't believe that we are doing the DCM at the end of the week! I did 12K yesterday and felt ok, but I am still not 100% convinced that I will break 4 hours on the day, but I have a simple plan that will hopefully allow me to be in with a shout of doing it.

I tried a negative split plan last year and it worked well for me up until about 20/21 miles, but I felt having to 'lift the pace' from the Walkinstown (Cherry Tree) roundabout (15/16 miles) messed with my head and I struggled a bit with it personally.

2019 Plan:
First 10K in 57/58 minutes, conservative start.
At 11k, after Myo's pub (yep you know the hill/ramp

), I plan to lift the pace to 5:35 per KM and then stay at that pace for the remainder of the race.

This should put me at 1:58/1:59 for the Halfway point and then hopefully I can maintain this pace up until 30/32K and then see what I have left for the last 10K/6 miles. I will of course back off the pace for the bad hills at Chapelizod and Milltown. I might fade a little after 32K but will hopefully have a few seconds per KM in the bag to allow me to stay comfortable.

I feel that I will have a better chance of 'holding on' rather than 'chasing' the various key milestone points.

4:05 here I come.....

ewc78 · 22-10-2019 9:43am

My plan rightly or wrongly is no faster than 9:20/mile for first 7 miles which should be roughly a 58min first 10km. Pick it up then on all the downhills to Lawrence hill but no faster than 8:50mile, slow right down to get over the hill. Then there are a few up and downs and drags as far as the 15 mile marker so run the course and adjust pace accordingly.
Would hope to pick it up from Mile 15 until the finish to 8:50/mile as that seems to be my MP based on all my training runs, and if there is anything left from Nutley lane to home just go for it, if I feel I'm just hanging on then that's what I'll do and not worry about going any faster at that stage.
Easier said than done of course. Will take a SIS gel every 30 mins with a caffeine one at 90mins and 180mins.
No 1 'A' goal is obviously to break the World record so 1:59.39 would be great

but failing that then my only goal is sub 4.
If I fail I fail but I have no other goal than sub 4.
I've already finished 3 Marathons so just finishing isn't a goal this time. If I was to be pushed to making a B goal then for my own sanity I need to see some return from my training so as close to 4 as possible which would be a huge PB for me anyway.

Bluesquare · 22-10-2019 9:55am

ewc78 wrote: »

My plan rightly or wrongly is no faster than 9:20/mile for first 7 miles which should be roughly a 58min first 10km. Pick it up then on all the downhills to Lawrence hill but no faster than 8:50mile, slow right down to get over the hill. Then there are a few up and downs and drags as far as the 15 mile marker so run the course and adjust pace accordingly.
Would hope to pick it up from Mile 15 until the finish to 8:50/mile as that seems to be my MP based on all my training runs, and if there is anything left from Nutley lane to home just go for it, if I feel I'm just hanging on then that's what I'll do and not worry about going any faster at that stage.
Easier said than done of course. Will take a SIS gel every 30 mins with a caffeine one at 90mins and 180mins.
No 1 'A' goal is obviously to break the World record so 1:59.39 would be great but failing that then my only goal is sub 4.
If I fail I fail but I have no other goal than sub 4.
I've already finished 3 Marathons so just finishing isn't a goal this time. If I was to be pushed to making a B goal then for my own sanity I need to see some return from my training so as close to 4 as possible which would be a huge PB for me anyway.

Sounds a bit like my plan only I’m planning a slightly slower first 10k (58:30) . My theory is that if I’m sub 4 ready my legs will thank me for the easy first half and reward me with an exciting finish . If I’m not , my legs will still thank me for the start and Ill get a pb . I hear you on the sub 4 - other goals just don’t seem as sexy . I think that’s why I have to try for it , because 4:05 just doesn’t motivate me in the same way . But I also know on the day if I pb I’ll be delighted - and 4:05 would be a darn good pb !!

bucketybuck · 22-10-2019 10:20am

ewc78 wrote: »

No 1 'A' goal is obviously to break the World record so 1:59.39 would be great but failing that then my only goal is sub 4.

Good news then, the WR is only 2.01.39, so you have nearly 2 minutes less to do there!

ADCD4 · 24-10-2019 7:42pm

Hi,

Would really appreciate some thoughts as am between two strategies for Sunday. This will be my 4th DCM with two at 3.57. Hoping to push for 3.55 this year and was planning to run with 4 hour pacers until around 20miles and then push on if I feel I can. The other option is to go at the very back of 3.50 pacers (I’m in wave 2) and pace myself at 5.34 average. I did the half in the race series in 1,46.50.
Any thoughts you might have would be great! Thanks

Singer · 24-10-2019 8:15pm

ADCD4 wrote: »

Hi,

Would really appreciate some thoughts as am between two strategies for Sunday. This will be my 4th DCM with two at 3.57. Hoping to push for 3.55 this year and was planning to run with 4 hour pacers until around 20miles and then push on if I feel I can. The other option is to go at the very back of 3.50 pacers (I’m in wave 2) and pace myself at 5.34 average. I did the half in the race series in 1,46.50.
Any thoughts you might have would be great! Thanks

Your first plan is better, go with the 4 hour group and then push on, maybe after half-way or so.

Dealerz2.0 · 24-10-2019 8:22pm

Singer wrote: »

Your first plan is better, go with the 4 hour group and then push on, maybe after half-way or so.

With DCM first 7 miles being the major climb, is there a chance of over doing it in those 7 miles by going with the pacers "even pace strategy" if and when the time comes to push on happens?

skyblue46 · 24-10-2019 8:31pm

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

With DCM first 7 miles being the major climb, is there a chance of over doing it in those 7 miles by going with the pacers "even pace strategy" if and when the time comes to push on happens?

No. He's aiming for 3:55 so going with the 4hr pacers would slow him to below PMP for the early miles. It seems an excellent strategy.

ADCD4 · 24-10-2019 8:56pm

Thanks a million! I’ll take your advice and go with the 4hr pacers!

Murph_D · 25-10-2019 5:02pm

Dealerz2.0 wrote: »

With DCM first 7 miles being the major climb, is there a chance of over doing it in those 7 miles by going with the pacers "even pace strategy" if and when the time comes to push on happens?

There seems to be a lot of ‘avoid the pace group’ going around. Remember you can still back off a bit when necessary and still run a lot of the race with the group, if that’s what you like to do. It’s not like they hare up the hills, and a lot of the ‘hills’ are just drags where you can back off a little without losing touch and catch up (slowly) later. The positives of being in the group can outweigh the negatives. You still have to run your own race in the end!

rovers_runner · 25-10-2019 5:22pm

From my effort to do sub 4 in the past...

First couple of miles, below the pace.
Next 5 over the pace.
Next 4 under the pace.
Three even.
Next 5 under the pace
Next 3 over the pace
Hang on

It's near impossible to allow for water stations, slowing of pace naturally, and undulating profile so I'd recommend people to do the following.

Know your uphill vs downhill cruising pace and stick with it.
If you have a strong half time run strong to halfway at 3p secs per mile slower, 8:30s for a 1:45 half runner.
That way you can take the easier 2nd at 9:20s and allow for tiredness etc.

I've rarely seen borderline 4hr people run even or negative splits, more power to those who have.
One thing about banking time within your ability is that it gives you something to hang on to and focuses the mind rather than chasing time.

skyblue46 · 25-10-2019 6:00pm

If a borderline 4 hour runner goes through half way in 1:51:30 they're either a) better than they think and will run 3:50 or b) heading for the most painful 13.1 miles of their lives.

The Black Oil · 25-10-2019 8:16pm

Alright folks. Best of luck now.
Hope the sub 4 parish grows on Sunday!

ewc78 · 27-10-2019 6:40am

Anyone fancy going for a long run this morning?

Kellygirl · 27-10-2019 7:21am

ewc78 wrote: »

Anyone fancy going for a long run this morning?

Yeah, think I will! Good luck all. Hope everybody has a great run.

The Sub 4 Support Thread

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