Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

CastorTroy · 30-11-2020 2:07pm

I've said before but that's why I dislike the late kick outs everyone does these days. You can tell the ref is pulling back and how often have we had the commentary team genuinely asking if it was a 3 count?
Also as obvious is when the person doing the pin clearly is the one to break it.

gerrybbadd · 30-11-2020 2:50pm

CastorTroy wrote: »

I've said before but that's why I dislike the late kick outs everyone does these days. You can tell the ref is pulling back and how often have we had the commentary team genuinely asking if it was a 3 count?
Also as obvious is when the person doing the pin clearly is the one to break it.

Looking back on some older matches, Earl Hebner was brutal when it came to making the final count after a finisher, especially when it came time for a title change. He'd count 1 & 2 fine, and take about 4 seconds to count the three.

Itssoeasy · 30-11-2020 3:02pm

CastorTroy wrote: »

I've said before but that's why I dislike the late kick outs everyone does these days. You can tell the ref is pulling back and how often have we had the commentary team genuinely asking if it was a 3 count?
Also as obvious is when the person doing the pin clearly is the one to break it.

I don’t mind late kick outs when done at the right time in the match. The old 2 and 7/8ths as JR would say when the crowd is into the match can work great. I liked nick Patrick as a ref but at the time he used to put his hand under the wrestlers shoulder(which I know can be explained as checking the shoulders are down) but he used to use it as a way to remind someone to kick out. It was a tell. There’s the ref that basically yells “kick out” which again ruins the moment.

I don’t mind the slow count like Hebner did when done right. Like after a ref bump and the one arm cover where the wrestler is using all their strength to just barely cover their opponent.

CastorTroy · 30-11-2020 3:33pm

Exactly, the late kick out is grand if done at the right time. Like someone kicking out of a finisher. But a late kick out for most pins in a match is overkill.

Agent Coulson · 01-12-2020 5:08pm

It's time for both Hardy Boyz to retire before one or both kill themselves with an unnecessary high spot.

The White Wolf · 01-12-2020 6:38pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

It's time for both Hardy Boyz to retire before one or both kill themselves with an unnecessary high spot.

It's pretty amazing that when working out that spot no one saw a possible problem with it.

02-12-2020 1:11am

At least it got a 3 count.

B.A._Baracus · 04-12-2020 11:03pm

Not sure if most would agree with it...
But looking back at his run in WCW in the late 90s, Perry Saturn was amazing. Like, one of the best wrestlers in the world type of amazing.

J. Marston · 04-12-2020 11:20pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Not sure if most would agree with it...
But looking back at his run in WCW in the late 90s, Perry Saturn was amazing. Like, one of the best wrestlers in the world type of amazing.

Is anyone using the Rings of Saturn these days? It's a great submission finisher.

beakerjoe · 04-12-2020 11:37pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Is anyone using the Rings of Saturn these days? It's a great submission finisher.

Pac

TimesArrow · 05-12-2020 12:01am

J. Marston wrote: »

Is anyone using the Rings of Saturn these days? It's a great submission finisher.

It’s a very cool move.. on a wider topic, wwe need to re think (amongst many things) the concept of finishers. Nearly every finisher isn’t entirely effective and at least in AEW, when omega hits the one winged angel, no one kicks out. Big E springs to mind, he really needs a new move as the big ending is one of the worst finishers from anyone on the roster

B.A._Baracus · 05-12-2020 12:13am

TimesArrow wrote: »

It’s a very cool move.. on a wider topic, wwe need to re think (amongst many things) the concept of finishers. Nearly every finisher isn’t entirely effective and at least in AEW, when omega hits the one winged angel, no one kicks out. Big E springs to mind, he really needs a new move as the big ending is one of the worst finishers from anyone on the roster

Interesting question.
Back in the day, it was a commonly held belief of a wrestler that once someone kicks out of your finish it's fecked.

It makes sense. How can a finisher be strong if people kick out of it. Don't get me wrong, someone will, but that's the special case. The big match or to to a lesser case to work an angle to start using a new finisher etc. But it should be kept strong you're right.

Many ways to work not hitting a finisher too. Someone may attempt it but it gets countered. The cliche wrestler hits the finisher but the ref is out etc.

Agent Coulson · 05-12-2020 12:41am

Drew took the Phenomenal Forearm, Starship Pain & The Skull Crushing Finale all within the space of a minute at the end of RAW this week and was fine 30 seconds after the last one with a big smile on his face giving one of his monotone speeches to AJ.

Then it seems like 90% of pins in the WWE are school boy roll ups so why would you bother with a finishing move.

TimesArrow · 05-12-2020 1:23am

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Drew took the Phenomenal Forearm, Starship Pain & The Skull Crushing Finale all within the space of a minute at the end of RAW this week and was fine 30 seconds after the last one with a big smile on his face giving one of his monotone speeches to AJ.

Then it seems like 90% of pins in the WWE are school boy roll ups so why would you bother with a finishing move.

This is it, those three lads looked like weak geeks off the back of that.. at least if they had decent effective finishers, they might appear as some sort of threat to Drew. They’ve turned McIntyre into this nearly invinceable
cena type character and I would say, Drew’s booking in the sense there are no realistic threats to him is one reason Raw is so dire right now

Sirsok · 05-12-2020 7:33pm

Have Shemus kick his head off, those two lads will batter each other.

Why do they find it so hard to make enaging content though.

All those different characters and talents could make such engaging content but week after week they are continutelly let down by weak creative.

They have such a vast array of versatile talent, almost like the marvel universe, most of the time they are in dressed in all black and given horrendous "real world" names like Buddy Murphy. Then their real talent is buried behind stupid gimmicks and storylines.

They stop start gimmicks and storylines.

This year they started with the

Hacker gimmick - abandoned it
Otis and Tucker fued - abandoned
Retiribution - May aswell be abandoned
Underground - Abandoned

They continutely forget midcarders With creative having nothing for them. Isnt that their job?

Tag teams get a bit of steam, lets break them up.

Maybe i am just gettimg older but i struggle to get any form of enthusiam for it.

Just looking at the AEW battle royal the other night and the nuances of the booking made sense and was engaging. Well thought out throughout the week and not just thrown together an hour before it goes on air.

Loughc · 05-12-2020 8:53pm

Sirsok wrote: »

Tag teams get a bit of steam, lets break them up.

Just looking at the AEW battle royal the other night and the nuances of the booking made sense and was engaging. Well thought out throughout the week and not just thrown together an hour before it goes on air.

Completely agree WCW’s booking went similar in the end it gives off a complete smell of desperation.

In this day and age think of the likes of the MCU people want to be rewarded for long term viewing.

I want to be rewarded for paying attention to smaller feuds. Coherent booking would be nice. I’m sick of having my intelligence insulted thinking once it happened more than 2 weeks ago I won’t remember it.

B.A._Baracus · 05-12-2020 9:53pm

Loughc wrote: »

I want to be rewarded for paying attention to smaller feuds. Coherent booking would be nice. I’m sick of having my intelligence insulted thinking once it happened more than 2 weeks ago I won’t remember it.

Sadly pro wrestling has always suffered from that.
You can have two guys enter a feud, kick the piss out of each other, get heated and hatred, bitter enemies.... Then 6 months later they're a tag team

all that stuff didn't happen before.

Bit silly.

Loughc · 05-12-2020 10:23pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Sadly pro wrestling has always suffered from that.
You can have two guys enter a feud, kick the piss out of each other, get heated and hatred, bitter enemies.... Then 6 months later they're a tag team all that stuff didn't happen before.

Bit silly.

See that can be fine it happens in movies and soap operas too villains become heroes foes friends, etc even if they just reference their feud every now and then. It would make things more compelling and create an uneasy undercurrent.

Such simple tweaks could just so much development.

Sirsok · 05-12-2020 10:24pm

One of my favorite spots in passed few years was Sasha stomping on Bayleys hand when she was reaching for the ropes. Little things like that so inventive and pays into their story.

Bayleys injured hand, it can save her then Sasha as the heel stomps the feck out of it.

Without investing in the story, that moment wouldnt of really meant much, but when you are it literally pops you. A small little move that makes sense and wouldnt hurt that much would pop me more then a wrestler diving over the top for the 5th time that night to grab peoples attention who are flicking thru the channels

Itssoeasy · 05-12-2020 10:29pm

Sirsok wrote: »

One of my favorite spots in passed few years was Sasha stomping on Bayleys hand when she was reaching for the ropes. Little things like that so inventive and pays into their story.

Bayleys injured hand, it can save her then Sasha as the heel stomos the feck out of it.

Without investing in the story, that moment wouldnt of really meant much, but when you are it literally pops you. A small little move that makes sense and wouldnt hurt that much would pop me more then a wrestler diving over the top for the 5th time that night to grab peoples attention who are flicking thru the channels

They did it before in NXT but yes that along with little details and sticking to the rules which governed wrestling for years would help wrestling in general without disrupting the modern style that much. I do like what ROH have done since they’ve been back with the real sports based presentation. The rope breaks and the wins meaning something.

ciaran2054 · 05-12-2020 10:32pm

Sirsok wrote: »

One of my favorite spots in passed few years was Sasha stomping on Bayleys hand when she was reaching for the ropes. Little things like that so inventive and pays into their story.

Bayleys injured hand, it can save her then Sasha as the heel stomos the feck out of it.

Without investing in the story, that moment wouldnt of really meant much, but when you are it literally pops you. A small little move that makes sense and wouldnt hurt that much would pop me more then a wrestler diving over the top for the 5th time that night to grab peoples attention who are flicking thru the channels

Totally agree. Plus the DIY break up and year long storyline feud had a tonne of nuance and intricate story beats that played out marvellously.

This proves:

A). Wwe are capable of it and

. Nothing will change in regards to proper story telling on the main roster until Vince is dead.

B.A._Baracus · 05-12-2020 10:32pm

Loughc wrote: »

See that can be fine it happens in movies and soap operas too villains become heroes foes friends, etc even if they just reference their feud every now and then. It would make things more compelling and create an uneasy undercurrent.

Such simple tweaks could just so much development.

True.
A reference can award fans who remember.
I guess it depends on the characters and storylines involved. Like for the most part, what you said, villains can become heroes... But there are some things that do not make sense.

Like Randy Orton kicking the head off Vince with a punt and they sold it like he nearly killed him as Vince is old. Like there's no way any McMahon could ever side with Orton after that. But WWE would forget that if the story called for it.

Ah depends I guess. Another that always sticks out in my mind is Austin aligning himself with Vince. After they hated each other, tried to screw each other so much blah blah.

Sirsok · 05-12-2020 10:42pm

Well even the Orton punting people in the head, just became so watered down and diluted. It would rule people out for weeks then it became just anothwr move.

Same with Owens and his Apron Power Bomb. First time he did it i was like holy ****! Then it became just another move.

Maybe like the superkick and ddt. But they could have protected it, like they did the pedigree. Make it be a big boss move.

But no they dilute it down and down until meh. 3 hell in a cells in 1 night. 2 money in the bank matches in 1 night. Why should i buy into "they will never be the same again" when it means absolutely f all.

Cena and Orton fighting for an undisputed title, made a big deal out of, not long later it meant feck all again when titles where seperated again.

About 50 titles, most an after thought and mean nothing.

Im delighted Walter wont go to Raw or Smackdown, he is a monster and oresented as such away from Vinces hand. As soon as Vince got his mitts on him, he is fed to McIntyre.

I used to love wrestling but WWE has made me so cynical, when watching. I struggle to keep my concentration because I know sweet fa matters.

Itssoeasy · 05-12-2020 10:44pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

True.
A reference can award fans who remember.
I guess it depends on the characters and storylines involved. Like for the most part, what you said, villains can become heroes... But there are some things that do not make sense.

Like Randy Orton kicking the head off Vince with a punt and they sold it like he nearly killed him as Vince is old. Like there's no way any McMahon could ever side with Orton after that. But WWE would forget that if the story called for it.

Ah depends I guess. Another that always sticks out in my mind is Austin aligning himself with Vince. After they hated each other, tried to screw each other so much blah blah.

Funny enough this week I started rewatching the raw and smackdown episodes post wrestle mania 17 and in 2001 when I was 16 it baffled me and watching it again nearly 20 years later it’s still weird. Triple h I can get and I’m on the raw after they join together(April 9th,2001) and i know Austin has said in hindsight he would have done it differently. Btw, the way the wrestlers behave is light years different then now. The main event of the smackdown after mania is triple h vs Chris Jericho for the IC title and it felt like a main event and you felt both guys hated each other.

Loughc · 05-12-2020 10:52pm

I’m currently making my way though WWF 1997 Raws and PPVs. The storylines and presentation was light years ahead of where it is now.

Less is much more. Nothing was rarely heavily advertised in advance and the Raws felt more fun because of that.

Itssoeasy · 05-12-2020 11:05pm

Loughc wrote: »

I’m currently making my way though WWF 1997 Raws and PPVs. The storylines and presentation was light years ahead of where it is now.

Less is much more. Nothing was rarely heavily advertised in advance and the Raws felt more fun because of that.

I did rewatch 1997 on the network a few years ago and early 1997 the set on raw is very old school and then March 10th arrived and we see the beginning of the change to what we’d probably call the classic raw look. They added the Titan tron and the red ropes and then the red ropes with a middle black rope one week. Who knew a raw taped in Germany which looked like **** would be the point of change. There was a raw half from South Africa around that time if I’m remembering right.

Loughc · 05-12-2020 11:22pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Who knew a raw taped in Germany which looked like **** would be the point of change. There was a raw half from South Africa around that time if I’m remembering right.

You are correct

Itssoeasy · 05-12-2020 11:26pm

Loughc wrote: »

You are correct

My memory is good then. I think it’s fair to say that the in ring product as a whole is better now(constant dives and flips notwithstanding) than 1997 but 1997 has a vibe to it which is helped by the less is more approach. I’d love to know how a company like wwe which is known for its top quality TV production allowed that Germany raw to happen. That was the show where the European title winner was crowned wasn’t it ?

Loughc · 05-12-2020 11:50pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

My memory is good then. I think it’s fair to say that the in ring product as a whole is better now(constant dives and flips notwithstanding) than 1997 but 1997 has a vibe to it which is helped by the less is more approach. I’d love to know how a company like wwe which is known for its top quality TV production allowed that Germany raw to happen. That was the show where the European title winner was crowned wasn’t it ?

Again you are correct.

There was also a raw from Toronto. Which was essentially a taped house show and the camera was up in the rafters.

AFAIK both were a money saving exercise at the time as WWF were not in great shape financially back then.

06-12-2020 12:11am

1997 is my favourite year in WWF/WWE history

Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Comments