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The last smoke in Amsterdam

24

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    Ah, classic. Don't dispute the point, rather suggest an alternative lifestyle may in fact be better. Spark another joint sure. It's groundhog day again tomorrow....


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The best is if you challenge any of them on it they pull out a statistical anomaly like Elon Musk or Richard Branson as proof that their brethern are high achieving go getters.

    Well of course they do - it's the quickest and most effective way of pointing out the stupidity of the "anyone I have known is.... and therefore everyone is" argument!!

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,765 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Ah, classic. Don't dispute the point, rather suggest an alternative lifestyle may in fact be better. Spark another joint sure. It's groundhog day again tomorrow....

    Dispute what point? Your own personal bias and condemnation of anyone who smokes weed? I'm doing that. And I've already had one, thanks. It's been groundhog day for years now, well before I started smoking. But please tell me oh great one, how can I improve my life? What do I need to strive for in order to not be wasting my life? There's a few specific points in my own personal life I'd like you to comment on, and seeing as you know exactly how I live I'm sure you know which parts I'm talking about.

    Also, classic, ignore the requests for facts or answers to questions and instead have another go. I'm here willing to debate, I asked genuine questions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    That's a nice hit to the economy right there. How do you propose replacing all the jobs lost in each of these cities then?


    This old pickle. While tourism is one of those sectors that definitely increases GDP growth, there is not a correlation between that growth and quality of life for most people with mass-tourism.

    The spoils go to airlines, hotel groups, AirBnb owners (pushing out locals). A lot of the money goes offshore anyway. You can't eat GDP growth, nor can you use it to put a roof over your head. Even the jobs are long hours and low wages now mostly done by foreigners anyway. I'd wager if you asked them, job-satisfaction is rather low. Tourism doesn't generally produce high-quality sustainable jobs.

    I work in a sector far removed from tourism, as do most of the populace, so you'll find it hard for me to give a crap. At one stage in Dublin I was living in between two AirBnbs and I before I moved I remember talking to my landlord and he was thinking of doing the same. Dublin is insufferable in the summer. An extra couple of million tourists per year won't improve my life, and I'll forgo the minimal uptick in GDP growth thankyouverymuch.

    Italy is one of the worst examples of it. I was there in the summer for a wedding and tourist towns are overran with low-quality Chinese tour groups, with Chinese guides and going to Chinese restaurants owned by Chinese people and staying in Chinese owned hotels. You'd scratch your head and wonder what's the point? Italians I talked to certainly weren't impressed. We can thank our lucky stars were not on that trail yet.

    Tourism can be a wonderful thing. But when it becomes a free for all, it changes cities for the worse in my opinion and in the opinion of a growing amount of people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,765 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Italy is one of the worst examples of it. I was there in the summer for a wedding and tourist towns are overran with low-quality Chinese tour groups, with Chinese guides and going to Chinese restaurants owned by Chinese people and staying in Chinese owned hotels. You'd scratch your head and wonder what's the point? Italians I talked to certainly weren't impressed. We can thank our lucky stars were not on that trail yet.

    One of the reasons I never really liked group holidays. No matter what country you go to as a group, there'll always be the ones who want to go the Irish bars. Never understood it tbh. Fly potentially thousands of miles only to be surrounded by stuff from back home. And usually tacky to boot.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Exactly this. Anyone I have known to chronically/consistently smoke weed is without fail waster and what's worse is they don't seem to realise it. Sure you can point at plenty of them and say they're holding down a job but that's it, they are going nowhere.

    I've seen a good few lads ditch it too and the difference in them after was unreal. Literally like a weight off their backs and their career and life blossomed once they got out of the rut of "a few joints" every evening.

    It might not have you stealing handbags like a crackhead but it's an insidious depressant that destroys motivation and ambition in my opinion and experience.

    Few of my old college friends still partake regularly. Not my cup of tea, but they're doing no harm.
    One is senior position in council.
    Another is currently prepping his factory or idea (whatever it is!) To be bought out by multinational.
    Another is a barrister for a large financial organisation.
    Another has their own DIY shop
    Accountant
    Events organiser
    Engineers
    Software Engineer
    Big pharma !

    They wouldn't wake and bake but mostly on weekends. The use has probably declined as they're busy with kids and stuff. I don't know how the heck you could be stoned and mind kids!

    And there are still a few pissheads doing what they always did, but seemingly happy... And a few casualties that didn't make it.. but I think there were underlying issues there to begin with.

    So by all accounts it's a spectrum.

    Probably the same as a spectrum of people who never indulged.

    Let em at it as long as it does nobody else any harm.

    Amsterdam was a victim of its own popularity.

    Nobody ever mentions Eindhoven or Copenhagen... or Canada!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Treppen wrote: »
    Few of my old college friends still partake regularly. Not my cup of tea, but they're doing no harm.
    One is senior position in council.
    Another is currently prepping his factory or idea (whatever it is!) To be bought out by multinational.
    Another is a barrister for a large financial organisation.
    Another has their own DIY shop
    Accountant
    Events organiser
    Engineers

    They wouldn't wake and bake but mostly on weekends. The use has probably declined as they're busy with kids and stuff. I don't know how the heck you could be stoned and mind kids!

    And there are still a few pissheads doing what they always did, but seemingly happy.

    So by all accounts it's a spectrum.

    Probably the same as a spectrum of people who never indulged.

    Let me at it as long as it does nobody else any harm.

    Amsterdam was a victim of its own success.

    Nobody ever mentions Eindhoven or Copenhagen... or Canada!!


    Can think of a few posters who might be well-served to have a few huffs of the old lettuce to calm them down!

    Interestingly, the link between weed and indolence/laziness came from the American media and politicians, who were spooked by an influx of Mexican immigrants in the 30s (who were anything but lazy but liked a puff), and they held that immigrant groups would corrode the productive Anglo-Protestant shining city on the hill that was the US of A. Prior to that, Americans actually smoked weed freely and there was little to no stigma.

    And we still have people on the internet almost 100 years later repeating the same stuff about weed as if they've figured something out. Shows how powerful propaganda and storytelling are I suppose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    As if nobody ever became an alcoholic. FFS. Anything done to excess causes problems.

    Plenty of people smoke in moderation the same way plenty of people drink in moderation.

    A lot less visits to casualty and deaths from cannabis use.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    I'm a big fan of the Dutch in general, and can see why the residents of Amsterdam have decided that enough is enough. Always known as being straight talking folks. Even though I live in Frankfurt I haven't been to Amsterdam that often, but when I have I always come away thinking a beautiful city has been tarnished by its association with drugs and sex work.

    Move away from the centre, and you find a city that still has bars and restaurants that are hundreds of years old, beautiful art installations, contemporary architecture, an innovative business environment, and some of the loveliest people you'll ever meet.

    The inner core itself is a hellish place though - overpriced restaurants with pictures on the menu; groups of stags from England, Scotland and Ireland peering in the windows at trafficked women, shops selling cheap tat, drug dealers on every corner, losers hanging around outside cannabis cafes talking rubbish to each other.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm a big fan of the Dutch in general, and can see why the residents of Amsterdam have decided that enough is enough. Always known as being straight talking folks. Even though I live in Frankfurt I haven't been to Amsterdam that often, but when I have I always come away thinking a beautiful city has been tarnished by its association with drugs and sex work.

    Move away from the centre, and you find a city that still has bars and restaurants that are hundreds of years old, beautiful art installations, contemporary architecture, an innovative business environment, and some of the loveliest people you'll ever meet.

    The inner core itself is a hellish place though - overpriced restaurants with pictures on the menu; groups of stags from England, Scotland and Ireland peering in the windows at trafficked women, shops selling cheap tat, drug dealers on every corner, losers hanging around outside cannabis cafes talking rubbish to each other.


    When you were hanging around there in proximity to cafes, did it occur to you that maybe someone just like you mistook you for a loser talking rubbish with your travel partner?


    Think about it man...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,765 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    A lot less visits to casualty and zero deaths from cannabis use.

    FYP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    I'm a big fan of the Dutch in general, and can see why the residents of Amsterdam have decided that enough is enough. Always known as being straight talking folks. Even though I live in Frankfurt I haven't been to Amsterdam that often, but when I have I always come away thinking a beautiful city has been tarnished by its association with drugs and sex work.

    Move away from the centre, and you find a city that still has bars and restaurants that are hundreds of years old, beautiful art installations, contemporary architecture, an innovative business environment, and some of the loveliest people you'll ever meet.

    The inner core itself is a hellish place though - overpriced restaurants with pictures on the menu; groups of stags from England, Scotland and Ireland peering in the windows at trafficked women, shops selling cheap tat, drug dealers on every corner, losers hanging around outside cannabis cafes talking rubbish to each other.

    Aongus, you're slacking. Go back to flushing your brothers weed down the toilet. I need a good laugh at the moment, and get the blog back up and running!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    And your proof of this is? Link please. Or wait, is your evidence anecdotal?



    So probably not weed then?



    Tell me, what constitutes "living a life"? What milestones does one have to achieve to be successful and not "waste" it? Every single person who isn't constantly striving for improvement for some reason, or just those that smoke weed? I love that argument, that if someone isn't constantly trying to achieve something that they're wasting their life. Must be quite breezy up on those high horses.



    So what does? In detail if you could please, I want to take notes.

    Basically yes, when you stop trying to improve and settle for what you think life has given you. You stop living and move into a sedentary phase of just hanging around waiting to die. I'm sure constantly being sedated helps numb the realisation you are doing this to yourself. It is harmless sure, to me and to the rest of society but to yourself. Deep down you probably know that and it's what causes the reach for another smoke. "It just helps me relax".


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭Aongus Von Bismarck


    Parachutes wrote: »
    Aongus, you're slacking. Go back to flushing your brothers weed down the toilet. I need a good laugh at the moment, and get the blog back up and running!

    I burned his weed.

    I'm very proud to say he's now 7 months off cannabis, alcohol, and gambling. The lockdown is the best thing that has ever happened to him.


  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I burned his weed.

    Did you go all bill clinton,and not inhale?


  • Registered Users Posts: 975 ✭✭✭Parachutes


    I burned his weed.

    I'm very proud to say he's now 7 months off cannabis, alcohol, and gambling. The lockdown is the best thing that has ever happened to him.

    Ah yes, I remember now. Glad to hear you got him sorted out in the end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,765 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    Basically yes, when you stop trying to improve and settle for what you think life has given you. You stop living and move into a sedentary phase of just hanging around waiting to die. I'm sure constantly being sedated helps numb the realisation you are doing this to yourself. It is harmless sure, to me and to the rest of society but to yourself. Deep down you probably know that and it's what causes the reach for another smoke. "It just helps me relax".

    Wow. Such a narrow view. So someone who settles and is happy with what they have is a waster, a failure even? As you said, harmless to you and the rest of society, but your view is quite damaging and you don't smoke weed. I reach for another smoke because of people with views like yours, one stuck in a old and Americanised view of what success is.

    What does it matter what someone does or doesn't do in life as long as they are happy? I had the mortgage, I had the long term missus, I could have had kids if I wanted them, I had a public service job with a "golden" (hah!) pension. I was miserable but fooled myself into believing that this is what happiness and success should be, a mortgage, a wife, kids, a good job. And that seems to work for some people. Lots of other people are fooling themselves into thinking they're happy in that situation (they're not). And then you have the likes of me, who has realised the actual value of living a life the way I want. You see it as a waste, I see it as using my time the way I want. Only difference is I'm not labelling an entire group of people for their choice of life based on my own personal opinion.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    Treppen wrote: »
    Few of my old college friends still partake regularly. Not my cup of tea, but they're doing no harm.
    One is senior position in council.
    Another is currently prepping his factory or idea (whatever it is!) To be bought out by multinational.
    Another is a barrister for a large financial organisation.
    Another has their own DIY shop
    Accountant
    Events organiser
    Engineers
    Software Engineer
    Big pharma !

    They wouldn't wake and bake but mostly on weekends. The use has probably declined as they're busy with kids and stuff. I don't know how the heck you could be stoned and mind kids!

    And there are still a few pissheads doing what they always did, but seemingly happy... And a few casualties that didn't make it.. but I think there were underlying issues there to begin with.

    So by all accounts it's a spectrum.

    Probably the same as a spectrum of people who never indulged.

    Let em at it as long as it does nobody else any harm.

    Amsterdam was a victim of its own popularity.

    Nobody ever mentions Eindhoven or Copenhagen... or Canada!!

    Actually used to sell it a bit when I was younger and the customers covered the full range of society as you say.

    Whether twas a young lad or a high flyer sneaking round to buy on the sly they had a lot in common : When it came to the evening, weekend etc they were every bit as dependent on that weed as an alcoholic is on their next drink or god forbid a dirty junkie is on their gear. But here is the funny part, all of them, bar none would be appalled by the comparison as I'm sure plenty here will be too but all the hallmarks were there. It's Friday evening : Need a few joints to relax, tough day at work: sure I'll spark up a joint. It's my sisters/cousins/mother's etc birthday : better get a bit of hash.

    Substitute any of the above for the alcohol equivalent and tell me how you wouldn't be a candidate for AA?

    I've known alcoholics, coke addicts, gamblers, even have a heroin addict in the family as well as the numerous "social smokers" and the main difference I see between all of them is one particular group maintains a smug sense of self delusion while ruining their lives albeit slower and in a more subtle way than the others.

    When you need something, no matter what it is, to feel right or relax, there's something not right with you, a bit of a want as they say, and convincing yourself otherwise while you reach for that crutch doesn't fix anything.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    Wow. Such a narrow view. So someone who settles and is happy with what they have is a waster, a failure even? As you said, harmless to you and the rest of society, but your view is quite damaging and you don't smoke weed. I reach for another smoke because of people with views like yours, one stuck in a old and Americanised view of what success is.

    What does it matter what someone does or doesn't do in life as long as they are happy? I had the mortgage, I had the long term missus, I could have had kids if I wanted them, I had a public service job with a "golden" (hah!) pension. I was miserable but fooled myself into believing that this is what happiness and success should be, a mortgage, a wife, kids, a good job. And that seems to work for some people. Lots of other people are fooling themselves into thinking they're happy in that situation (they're not). And then you have the likes of me, who has realised the actual value of living a life the way I want. You see it as a waste, I see it as using my time the way I want. Only difference is I'm not labelling an entire group of people for their choice of life based on my own personal opinion.

    But you're not happy and living your life the way you want are you? You reach for that crutch to numb it out. Make you forget. Make it go away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    But you're not happy and living your life the way you want are you? You reach for that crutch to numb it out. Make you forget. Make it go away.


    If you want to get rid of substance abuse, you'll need to eradicate human misery and depression first. One flows from the other.

    Most people aren't miserable though. I'm well capable of having the occasional joint among friends or when watching a movie and not succumbing to reefer madness.

    Same as anyone who likes a pint with good company in a warm pub (oh how I miss you, fireside creamy pint, I'll never speak ill of you again), part of the rich tapestry of life smellyoldboot. Different folks, different strokes.

    Some people overeat because they have sadness in their life, should we ban food and delivery pizza too?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    But you're not happy and living your life the way you want are you? You reach for that crutch to numb it out. Make you forget. Make it go away.

    Would you say the same about a glass of wine?

    Such dramatics. A crutch to numb it out.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    Would you say the same about a glass of wine?

    Such dramatics. A crutch to numb it out.

    If you see it as essential to relax then yes. In fact we generally recognise that very attitude to alcohol as the massive red flare it is. It's very very common for regular weed smokers to think exactly like that though and they rarely recognise it as (psychological) dependance because of course its not addictive, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Actually used to sell it a bit when I was younger and the customers covered the full range of society as you say.

    Whether twas a young lad or a high flyer sneaking round to buy on the sly they had a lot in common : When it came to the evening, weekend etc they were every bit as dependent on that weed as an alcoholic is on their next drink or god forbid a dirty junkie is on their gear. But here is the funny part, all of them, bar none would be appalled by the comparison as I'm sure plenty here will be too but all the hallmarks were there. It's Friday evening : Need a few joints to relax, tough day at work: sure I'll spark up a joint. It's my sisters/cousins/mother's etc birthday : better get a bit of hash.

    Substitute any of the above for the alcohol equivalent and tell me how you wouldn't be a candidate for AA?

    I've known alcoholics, coke addicts, gamblers, even have a heroin addict in the family as well as the numerous "social smokers" and the main difference I see between all of them is one particular group maintains a smug sense of self delusion while ruining their lives albeit slower and in a more subtle way than the others.

    When you need something, no matter what it is, to feel right or relax, there's something not right with you, a bit of a want as they say, and convincing yourself otherwise while you reach for that crutch doesn't fix anything.


    Drug pusher!

    *I jest, I jest*


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭GT89


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55765554

    What says you?

    On one hand, locals should probably have a right to have a say in how their city is run. On the other hand, if you don't want to deal with rowdy tourists, you probably shouldn't have bought/ rented a property slap bang in the middle of Amsterdam in the first place. Like gobshiets who rent in Temple Bar and complain about noise, or **** who buy next to Croke Park and think they have a right to say how many concerts should happen there (none would be their preference), or entitled coonts who seem to think Marley/ Phoenix Park is solely for the use of those who live beside it, local busybodies who buy somewhere like this deserve nothing but contempt.

    I also by default generally take a dim personal view of Covid being the time to reflect on how things should be forever going forward. It certainly does little to abate anybody conspiracy minded about aspects of it. I don't know if the Dutch Green party are as insufferable and useless as ours, but I'll hazard a guess that they are (funnily enough the Irish Greens are also advocates of trying to ruin Dublin under the guise of "the new normal")

    Funny thing is, this sort of thing, that the Dutch were on the brink of calling time on weed and hookers, has been on the cards for 20 odd years. It was in the pipeline when I first went there circa 2005. I returned early last year for the first time and it has dramatically changed since my first visit. You pretty much couldn't walk more than a few minutes without black/ Arab street dealers offering coke/ yokes, I saw absolutely none of this going on this time around. The Red Light district I saw in early 2020 wasn't a fraction as big as it seemed to be 15 years prior. Amsterdam is less seedy than it was years ago, so it's a strange time to float this seeing as it already has cleaned up its act.

    So, will they see this through, or is it kite flying that will never be seen through, designed to make the cafes take more responsibility for the types they attract?

    Wouldn't surprise if this was being done in order to generate more revenue from the types of tourists. Think about it who's going to spend more money in Amsterdam a group of working class 18-21 year old going on a weekend break to smoke weed and get pissed or a middle class professional couple in their late 20s/early 30s going on a city break together.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭smellyoldboot


    Yurt! wrote: »
    If you want to get rid of substance abuse, you'll need to eradicate human misery and depression first. One flows from the other.

    Most people aren't miserable though. I'm well capable of having the occasional joint among friends or when watching a movie and not succumbing to reefer madness.

    Same as anyone who likes a pint with good company in a warm pub (oh how I miss you, fireside creamy pint, I'll never speak ill of you again), part of the rich tapestry of life smellyoldboot. Different folks, different strokes.

    Some people overeat because they have sadness in their life, should we ban food and delivery pizza too?

    We don't have to ban anything, in fact I'd be in favour of legalisation of everything with conditions, ie heroine and cocaine only available to chronic addicts and administered by prescription at sustenance levels while tapering off doses. Illegal selling is then still a crime but a matter for revenue who to be fair often seem far more efficient and voracious in chasing defaulters than an garda are capable of with our legislation.

    But let's not cod ourselves that it's some harmless drug. Regular users, I refrain from using the addict term mostly, can be very bit as dependent on it as an alcoholic is on the drink. Legalising the substance doesn't really make its abuse any more acceptable. If anything it just brings it into the limelight and the issue can be better tackled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,277 ✭✭✭poisonated


    Barcelona is the new Amsterdam.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    We don't have to ban anything, in fact I'd be in favour of legalisation of everything with conditions, ie heroine and cocaine only available to chronic addicts and administered by prescription at sustenance levels while tapering off doses. Illegal selling is then still a crime but a matter for revenue who to be fair often seem far more efficient and voracious in chasing defaulters than an garda are capable of with our legislation.

    But let's not cod ourselves that it's some harmless drug. Regular users, I refrain from using the addict term mostly, can be very bit as dependent on it as an alcoholic is on the drink. Legalising the substance doesn't really make its abuse any more acceptable. If anything it just brings it into the limelight and the issue can be better tackled.


    Nobody's speaking in favour of abuse of anything. Food, alcohol, sex, weed; - all are facts of life and be both enjoyed or abused depending on your mental state.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    I didnt like the vibe very much in Amsterdam due to the sheer amount of stoner tourists. A shame because it's a very nice Country and Amsterdam could be nice if moved a bit more upmarket.

    The best thing that could happen is for weed to be made legal Europe wide. This would effectively eliminate stoner tourists congregating in any 1 area.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,765 ✭✭✭✭Potential-Monke


    When you need something, no matter what it is, to feel right or relax, there's something not right with you, a bit of a want as they say, and convincing yourself otherwise while you reach for that crutch doesn't fix anything.

    At what point did anyone here say they need it? I smoke by choice. Not because I need it, I can do without it. Boring old world though. Weed enhances my experiences. I'm not stoned 24/7, only when I know I'm in for the night and won't need to drive. Liking and doing something is not the same as dependence. It's a fairly basic statement tbh, one which appears to pass you by. And nothing wrong with wanting to enhance an experience. Some people do it with drink, others with weed, others with dance, others with song. Different strokes.
    But you're not happy and living your life the way you want are you? You reach for that crutch to numb it out. Make you forget. Make it go away.

    How do you know I'm not? I need to win the lotto to live the life the way I truly want. So I'm living the life that right now I'm very happy with, and is hundreds of times better than the life I thought I was living for the years before it. Not everyone wants to be a CEO, not everyone wants to make a name for themselves (whatever that's worth). Some people are quite content with what they have, and just because some of us smoke weed we're automatically wasters? Sounds like you're deflecting tbh. Have a smoke and think about it.
    If you see it as essential to relax then yes. In fact we generally recognise that very attitude to alcohol as the massive red flare it is. It's very very common for regular weed smokers to think exactly like that though and they rarely recognise it as (psychological) dependance because of course its not addictive, right?

    Having being borderline alcoholic, I can personally state that alcohol is far more addictive. I can and have stopped smoking for months at a time if I want. If I want to make a big purchase, or something comes up that I need to pay for, the weed will be the first to go because it's a choice. If I get to the stage where I'm buying weed before food or other essentials, then maybe I have a problem. But I'm not wanting to anything necessary, and I live quite a comfortable life. I'll look after myself, you look after yourself. And keep the labels too. Sound.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 576 ✭✭✭Tomaldo


    The best is if you challenge any of them on it they pull out a statistical anomaly like Elon Musk or Richard Branson as proof that their brethern are high achieving go getters.

    Or we could use other statistical anomalies such as Steve Jobs, The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Adam Clayton and Ronnie O'Sullivan.


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