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Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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Comments

  • #62
    humberklog
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 10,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭humberklog


    Have any of those that voted to seal it for 30 years explained why they voted the way they did and how come it was the government v. the opposition in the way the voted fell does anyone know?


  • #63
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,673 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    nthclare wrote: »
    Hopefully it'll be reversed.
    It's very sad to see this happening.

    No chance.


  • #64
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    mdwexford wrote: »
    This seems baffling.
    How the hell can they have voted for this.

    Because I'd say it's so horrific that the shame brought on the powers that be would be irreversible.

    No doubt there's a lot of spin doctors helping them this very moment to deflect the anger and frustration of people.


  • #65
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    We elect politicians to govern. There could very easily be a metered release of information on a case by case basis.
    There are no excuses for this disgusting arse covering on behalf of the state and church by the FF/FG/Green parties. Shameful self preservation.


  • #66
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    They took the least worse option imo.

    The 2004 legislation which the Commission was based on states that after the findings of the commission have been finalized and the commission dissolved that testimonials gathered are to be destroyed or sealed for 30 years and handed over to the public archives.

    The report in full will be delivered to the public before the 31st of October so the bill was railroaded through the Oireachtas to prevent the destruction of files legally required after this date.

    There are data solicitors and barristers on Twitter that argue that anyone named in the sealed testimonials are entitled to view them under GDPR.

    I am unsure if the sealings will prevent prosecutions in the event that the report will detail criminal activity (which it will).

    This is a legal quagmire, I'm not a lawyer and really strugge to keep up. Huge proportions of the Dàil are nowhere near educated enough to understand what they really voted for.

    I've only read the bill and amendments for the first time today but could it be summarised as "making a copy of all the commission databases before they're destroyed/archived for 30 years the week after next"?

    I've found it very hard to correlate what the media and and social media are saying with the actual text. Up to reading it myself I believed that the new act introduced the 30 year sealing, when in fact it was the 2004 act establishing the commission that did it.


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  • #67
    almostover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭almostover


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    How can we ever expect people to come forward and co-operate with Commissions of Investigation and Inquiries in the future if the Government reneges on a commitment it made to privacy, written into law?

    This decision is so difficult for so many people and seems cruel. However the Government have little other option all the same. The Commission would never have gotten off the ground if that commitment to privacy was not made and this whole discussion wouldn't have even arisen. Worth keeping that in mind.

    How does one persons right to privacy trump another right to justice? To know who ones parents are? I sure if there was policital will to do so then a solution more palatable to the victims of mother and baby homes could have been found.


  • #68
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,582 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Another shameful say for the 2 parties that have ruled this country so badly in recent decades. They continue to abuse the 'fallen women'.

    Shame on all the TDs that voted for this.

    There must still be important forces in our state protecting the church and it's wrongdoings.

    Some of those mothers are begging for the details of the forcibly adopted children for 40/50 years. They know they will be dead before the records are opened. It's their personal records!!

    Sickening.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #69
    eddie73
    Registered Users Posts: 647 ✭✭✭eddie73


    Excuse my ignorance, why did the gov rule in favour of sealing these records? Seems like a very very odd decision. What was their rationale?


  • #70
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    humberklog wrote: »
    Have any of those that voted to seal it for 30 years explained why they voted the way they did and how come it was the government v. the opposition in the way the voted fell does anyone know?
    I just read the act and unless I'm mistaken there's no mention of 30 years, there is in the 2004 act establishing the commission though.


  • #71
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »
    Another shameful say for the 2 parties that have ruled this country so badly in recent decades. They continue to abuse the 'fallen women'.

    Shame on all the TDs that voted for this.

    There must still be important forces in our state protecting the church and it's wrongdoings.

    Some of those mothers are begging for the details of the forcibly adopted children for 40/50 years.     They know they will be dead before the records are opened. It's their personal records!!

    Sickening.

    There is nothing stopping this happening. The only time it doesnt happen is if the adopted child doesnt want to meet its birth parent which is fair enough in my book.


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  • #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    almostover wrote: »
    How does one persons right to privacy trump another right to justice? To know who ones parents are? I sure if there was policital will to do so then a solution more palatable to the victims of mother and baby homes could have been found.

    It doesn't but the information was gathered on the commitment it would be sealed.

    A more general point is Ireland is still nowhere ready to examine why these "homes" came into being. There's a really stark history in Ireland of people using institutions like this as a way to hide unwanted family members to prevent farms being sub-divided further.

    The idea they were imposed on an unwilling population by the Church or State is nowhere near the full story. (Indeed, the idea either the church or state could impose something so vicious without buy-in from a large section of society is bizarre imo).


  • #73
    StackSteevens
    Closed Accounts Posts: 873 ✭✭✭StackSteevens


    almostover wrote: »
    How does one persons right to privacy trump another right to justice? To know who ones parents are? I sure if there was policital will to do so then a solution more palatable to the victims of mother and baby homes could have been found.

    There's absolutely nothing stopping the people who gave evidence to the Commission and are happy for their testimony to be published from publishing it themselves. Obviously, many of the witnesses are elderly and wouldn't have the technical know how to go about arranging this.

    But if the opposition and the social justice brigade genuinely cared a tuppenny damn about the matter and the people involved then they'd already have set up a website for the publication of such testimonies.

    But that would mean actually doing something practical instead of merely playing the populist card and luxuriating in some hard core grandstanding.


  • #74
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,673 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    eddie73 wrote: »
    Excuse my ignorance, why did the gov rule in favour of sealing these records? Seems like a very very odd decision. What was their rationale?

    What was their rationale in ring-fencing the Catholic Church and religious orders from the consequences of their past asctions involving child abuse?

    What are their motives for giving publicly funded maternity hospitals to a religous order so it becomes their property and allowing them to run it given their obvious unfitness to do so?

    Why are Irish people blind the the fact that Irish governements are in the pocket of the Catholic church and that the state is essentially a thocracy?


  • #75
    Acosta
    Registered Users Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭Acosta


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Maybe the public are fed up of the exaggerated claims by the media?

    Rape wasn't the only way these people were abused. They were beaten, shamed, emotionally abused for years, used as guinea pigs in vaccine trials and so on. I wouldn't believe for a second there was a little as 68 raped over a period of several decades as stated in the Spike article. There's many obvious reason many victims would not have reported it and also, it's only since 2000 that these victims were encouraged to come forward. Many would have died or been very elderly at that point.


  • #76
    landofthetree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭landofthetree


    cnocbui wrote: »
    What was their rationale in ring-fencing the Catholic Church and religious orders from the consequences of their past asctions involving child abuse?

    What are their motives for giving publicly funded maternity hospitals to a religous order so it becomes their property and allowing them to run it given their obvious unfitness to do so?

    Why are Irish people blind the the fact that Irish governements are in the pocket of the Catholic church and that the state is essentially a thocracy?

    The state needs the Romish church to provide education. Without all the Romish schools what would the government do?

    Do you expect the Romish church just to gift all these lands and buildings to the state?


  • #77
    s1ippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    landofthetree wrote: »
    Step fathers have abused thousands of children but nobody mentions that. :rolleyes:
    Imagine there was a register which would enable thousands of people to bring their abusive stepfathers to justice and the government was sealing it until they were all dead and their victims were elderly.


  • #78
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,673 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    landofthetree wrote: »
    The state needs the romish church to provide education. Without all the romish schools what would the government do?

    Er, nationalise them as punisment for past crimes. They already pay the wages.


  • #79
    Gooey Looey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Gooey Looey


    landofthetree wrote: »
    The state needs the Romish church to provide education. Without all the Romish schools what would the government do?

    Do you expect the Romish church just to gift all these lands and buildings to the state?

    Yes, they owe it


  • #80
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Don't jump to conclusions:

    "I am bringing forward a bill today whose purpose is to protect a database created by the Commission on mother and baby homes," he said.

    Mr O'Gorman said he also wanted to dispel a suggestion that the effect of his legislation was to seal the archive for 30 years.

    He contended: "That claim has been repeated countless times in this House. It is incorrect. This bill seeks to protect a database and ensure it is not sealed in that archive."


  • #81
    The Hound Gone Wild
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭The Hound Gone Wild


    TheChizler wrote: »
    I've only read the bill and amendments for the first time today but could it be summarised as "making a copy of all the commission databases before they're destroyed/archived for 30 years the week after next"?

    I've found it very hard to correlate what the media and and social media are saying with the actual text. Up to reading it myself I believed that the new act introduced the 30 year sealing, when in fact it was the 2004 act establishing the commission that did it.

    From my reading it makes a copy and gives it to Tusla. The other copy stays with the minister sealed under the 2004 act.

    I don't understand in what capacity Tusla can use it or who has access to it.


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  • #82
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Imagine there was a register which would enable thousands of people to bring their abusive stepfathers to justice and the government was sealing it until they were all dead and their victims were elderly.

    That's not the purpose of today's bill though. Afaik, today's bill is to allow the government copy the database to keep it out of the 30 year lock down.


  • #83
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    From my reading it makes a copy and gives it to Tusla. The other copy stays with the minister sealed under the 2004 act.

    I don't understand in what capacity Tusla can use it or who has access to it.

    Think that's the bigger issue with the people who are complaining, they don't feel Tusla is fit for purpose (and are probably right).


  • #84
    The Hound Gone Wild
    Registered Users Posts: 255 ✭✭The Hound Gone Wild


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Think that's the bigger issue with the people who are complaining, they don't feel Tusla is fit for purpose (and are probably right).

    They are right, Tusla are a sh*tshow. I wouldn't trust them to run a bath.

    The alternative was to not make a copy and keep them sealed for 30 years. So least bad option.


  • #85
    almostover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,967 ✭✭✭almostover


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    They are right, Tusla are a sh*tshow. I wouldn't trust them to run a bath.

    The alternative was to not make a copy and keep them sealed for 30 years. So least bad option.

    If the report ends up in the hands of Tusla somehow Maurice McCabe might be implicated in the running of a mother and baby home. Tusla after all have an unblemished track record with protecting sensitive information and handling allegations of abuse with the utmost professionalism


  • #86
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,582 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    landofthetree wrote: »
    There is nothing stopping this happening. The only time it doesnt happen is if the adopted child doesnt want to meet its birth parent which is fair enough in my book.

    Nonsense. There was a woman on the radio yesterday saying she had begged for her records at Bessborough where her son was taken from her after 6 weeks. They would not give her the details.
    Another man wanted to know where his sister was buried. They refused to reveal the details.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #87
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 12,995 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Terrible day for so many people.

    The Greens, as usual, offer no change whenever they get into government.


  • #88
    Cluedo Monopoly
    Registered Users Posts: 8,582 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/bessborough-mother-baby-home-survivor-22863964
    Ann told her heartbreaking story in this newspaper last year – how she has been searching for her daughter Evelyn for almost 50 years.
    She had her in Bessborough as a terrified teenager in 1971 and passed out after the birth. When she awoke the nuns told her the baby was dead.
    But they refused to show her the grave and dates and other details on the birth and death certificates didn’t match up.

    The nuns wrote back stating their position as given to the Commission of Inquiry into Mother and Baby Homes, claiming they have no information.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • #89
    a very cool kid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭a very cool kid


    Are we all agreed that the first five pages on this thread screaming about the records being sealed for another 30 years are based on bad information?

    Records will not be sealed


  • #90
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    They took the least worse option imo.

    The 2004 legislation which the Commission was based on states that after the findings of the commission have been finalized and the commission dissolved that testimonials gathered are to be destroyed or sealed for 30 years and handed over to the public archives.

    The report in full will be delivered to the public before the 31st of October so the bill was railroaded through the Oireachtas to prevent the destruction of files legally required after this date.

    There are data solicitors and barristers on Twitter that argue that anyone named in the sealed testimonials are entitled to view them under GDPR.

    I am unsure if the sealings will prevent prosecutions in the event that the report details criminal activity (which it will).

    This is a legal quagmire, I'm not a lawyer and really strugge to keep up. Huge proportions of the Dàil are nowhere near educated enough to understand what they really voted for.

    Why are they being destroyed? Where in laws does it say they need to be destroyed? How come now non government parties amendments were being considered?


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  • #91
    political analyst
    Registered Users Posts: 4,436 ✭✭✭political analyst


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    They took the least worse option imo.

    The 2004 legislation which the Commission was based on states that after the findings of the commission have been finalized and the commission dissolved that testimonials gathered are to be destroyed or sealed for 30 years and handed over to the public archives.

    The report in full will be delivered to the public before the 31st of October so the bill was railroaded through the Oireachtas to prevent the destruction of files legally required after this date.

    There are data solicitors and barristers on Twitter that argue that anyone named in the sealed testimonials are entitled to view them under GDPR.

    I am unsure if the sealings will prevent prosecutions in the event that the report details criminal activity (which it will).

    This is a legal quagmire, I'm not a lawyer     and really strugge to keep up. Huge proportions of the Dàil are nowhere near educated enough to understand what they really voted for.

    I'm not a lawyer either. But I know the principle of compulsion, which means that admissions made in testimony given to a statutory inquiry cannot be used as evidence in a criminal prosecution. Furthermore, anyone involved in illegal activity mentioned in the commission's report is dead or unfit to stand trial or so old that, even in the unlikely event of a decision to prosecute, he or she would die before a trial could take place.


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