Funny/Unusual records

Jellybaby1 · 04-04-2019 3:26pm

Well, Napoleon is indeed a strange named but it could have been worse I suppose. Found this if you feel like reading it. Other names could have been: Helpless, Forsaken, Repentance, or even Flie-fornication!! A better one could have been Fortune.

http://www.strangehistory.net/2015/06/15/bastard-names/

https://www.genealogy.com/articles/research/52_donna.html

Peregrinus · 05-04-2019 2:12am

kildarejohn wrote: »

Just a wild guess, but I wonder perhaps was the priest educated in a Catholic seminary in Europe and therefore chose these very European names. If the priest was heavily influenced by his contacts with French Catholics perhaps he was naming the babies after people he knew.

Unlikely that he knew Napoleon! Not personally, at any rate.

The suggestion of an eduction in France is an interesting one. The Irish Colleges in France were closed (by the revolutionary government) in 1793; Maynooth was founded in 1795 in response. About 10 years later, the Irish College in Paris was reopened, but as a much smaller institution, and with some students spending a part of their formation there, and many not going there at all. Whether a priest ministering in the 1820s is likely to have spent much time in Paris basically depends on how old he is.

The choice of "Napoleon" is interesting. On the one hand, he might be seen as having rescued the French church from the horrors of the Revolution and the Terror, and as having helped to restore some stability to it. On the other hand, he tried to bring it under his own control. I would think Catholics in France at the time would have had very mixed feelings about Napoleon; certainly not unqualified admiration. In Britain, he was simply a bogeyman figure. Hard to know how he might have been perceived in rural Ireland. There wasn't any real republican/separatist movement with strong traction at this time; Catholic emancipation and, after that, Repeal were all the go, and I don't really see Napoleon being an inspirational figure for either movement.

We're also assuming that the baptismal name is chosen by the priest but, of course, this isn't normally the case. The most the priest usually gets to do is to veto a proposed name, usually on the grounds that it isn't Christian or biblical. Yet it's undeniably striking that there are several Napoleons in this register, and they're all illegitimate.

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2019 8:44am

Peregrinus wrote: »

....

We're also assuming that the baptismal name is chosen by the priest but, of course, this isn't normally the case. The most the priest usually gets to do is to veto a proposed name, usually on the grounds that it isn't Christian or biblical. Yet it's undeniably striking that there are several Napoleons in this register, and they're all illegitimate.

Don't forget that Louvain too had an Irish college and was part of the French Republic from 1795 until 1815.
The baptism in question took place less than 8 years after Napoleon was excommunicated by the Pope so it is most likely that the name was given to the infant as a 'punishment' name. However he probably grew up as 'Sean'. The power of a priest back then (and indeed until recent times) allowed him do what he wanted.

Peregrinus · 05-04-2019 9:15am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Don't forget that Louvain too had an Irish college and was part of the French Republic from 1795 until 1815.

The college at Louvain was closed in 1794 (for the obvious reason) and didn't reopen (as an Irish College) until some time in the 20th century.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The baptism in question took place less than 8 years after Napoleon was excommunicated by the Pope so it is most likely that the name was given to the infant as a 'punishment' name. However he probably grew up as 'Sean'. The power of a priest back then (and indeed until recent times) allowed him do what he wanted.

The excommunication was just one episode in a rather, um, chequered relationship between Napoleon and the papacy, which was still ongoing for at least the earliest of the three baptisms mentioned. This was a bit before the papacy loomed quite as large in the Irish Catholic imagination as it came to in the later nineteenth century and I suspect that, even for a parish priest, attitudes to Napoleon would have been influenced more by his relationship with Britain than by his relationship with the papacy. And, to be honest, throughout the period when these baptisms took place, he would have been an even bigger bogeyman for the British than for the Popes.

I think the view that the name would have been chosen by the priest is conjectural; do we have evidence of priests imposing names, especially derogatory names, on illegitimate children during this period? Plus, if the priest was going to impose a name, wouldn't he be far more likely to impose a name with Christian, if penitential, associations.

I think the key here may be the spelling. A search of the church records for "Napoleon" turns up 37 hits so the name, while uncommon, wasn't unique. "Nepoleon", turns up only 4 hits, of which three are in the same parish in a short space of years. Which makes me think that, actually, the common link here may not be that these chldren were baptised in a parish where the priest liked to impose names as a cruel joke but, maybe, they were baptised in a parish where the priest was under a misapprehension as to the spelling of "Napoleon", but the name itself was not considered punitive and there is no real reason to think the priest chose it.

kildarejohn · 05-04-2019 10:40am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think the view that the name would have been chosen by the priest is conjectural; do we have evidence of priests imposing names, especially derogatory names, on illegitimate children during this period?

I feel that 4 Napoleons plus (according to Vetch) a few Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis, is just too many odd names to be coincidence. Can I throw out a couple of ideas - with no basis of evidence - to see what people think.
1) The priest may have chosen the names, not as punishment, but as a way of preserving the (alleged) father's anonymity. In those days, children (boys in particular) were always named after g.father, father etc. So if the illeg. boy was named Thomas, people would have said "oh he must be a Murphy so". By naming him Napoleon, his father remained a mystery.
2) In those days women had zero rights, not even the right to name their own children. So if the father was not around, the obvious senior male figure to name the child was the priest.

pedroeibar1 · 05-04-2019 6:08pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

The college at Louvain was closed in 1794 (for the obvious reason) and didn't reopen (as an Irish College) until some time in the 20th century. .

Agreed, the Republic moved on the College (actually in 1793) but it was not vacated for some time – the Guardian, a Fr James Cowan continued the fight to hold onto the building until he lost control and it was eventually sold in 1822. (It was re-purchased in 1925.)

A strong Irish presence continued in Louvain, however, and a kinsman of mine, born 1827, in Co. Tipp., trained at the Irish College in Paris, was ordained in 1853, served in Ireland until 1857 when he moved to Louvain.

Vetch · 05-04-2019 8:29pm

kildarejohn wrote: »

I feel that 4 Napoleons plus (according to Vetch) a few Clotilda, Carolina, Bonaparte, Luis, is just too many odd names to be coincidence. Can I throw out a couple of ideas - with no basis of evidence - to see what people think.
1) The priest may have chosen the names, not as punishment, but as a way of preserving the (alleged) father's anonymity. In those days, children (boys in particular) were always named after g.father, father etc. So if the illeg. boy was named Thomas, people would have said "oh he must be a Murphy so". By naming him Napoleon, his father remained a mystery.
2) In those days women had zero rights, not even the right to name their own children. So if the father was not around, the obvious senior male figure to name the child was the priest.

A problem with this is that Peregrinus is correct in #118. It was later in the 19th century before the Catholic Church gained real traction. If you look at priests' correspondence in the 1820s you will find references to priests struggling to get parishioners to conform to teachings - people not attending Mass, not observing Easter, cohabiting outside wedlock.

As the fathers are named in the register, the parents may have been living together with the baby having the father's surname. Anonymity in a very rural place like Inchigeelagh doesn't ring true. It's also easy to imagine a priest having difficulty stamping his authority there. Inchigeelagh is really a bit of a spin from anywhere you could call a town and it would be easy to see people not taking too much notice of a priest.

pinkypinky · 05-04-2019 11:41pm

Just browsing the Rosemary ffoliott collection on FMP that Claire Santry blogged about earlier and came across this.

Ennis Chronicle 16/2/1820 reporting the marriage of a James Guerin aged 78 to Sarah Doyle aged 81 at Tulla.

Jellybaby1 · 07-04-2019 10:35pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Just browsing the Rosemary ffoliott collection on FMP that Claire Santry blogged about earlier and came across this.

Ennis Chronicle 16/2/1820 reporting the marriage of a James Guerin aged 78 to Sarah Doyle aged 81 at Tulla.

Was it love, or was it inheritance that inspired the marriage I wonder?

Peregrinus · 08-04-2019 3:36am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Was it love, or was it inheritance that inspired the marriage I wonder?

With an older spouse/younger spouse marriage, you might be thinking the younger spouse is motivated by hopes of inheritance. But whichever of these spouses survived the other was probably not going to enjoy any inheritance for very long anyway.

One possiblity was that the spousees were a long-tme couple who had children and that they married to secure the inheritance rights of their children. But that's conjectural, obviously.

The other is that the married for companionship in old age. Each may have been married before, and then widowed.

Jellybaby1 · 08-04-2019 11:00pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

With an older spouse/younger spouse marriage, you might be thinking the younger spouse is motivated by hopes of inheritance. But whichever of these spouses survived the other was probably not going to enjoy any inheritance for very long anyway.

One possiblity was that the spousees were a long-tme couple who had children and that they married to secure the inheritance rights of their children. But that's conjectural, obviously.

The other is that the married for companionship in old age. Each may have been married before, and then widowed.

You are much more sensible than me!

spurious · 14-04-2019 10:12pm

George Prescott's census return made me smile. The occupation(s) and to top it all the 'Refused' for religion.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003732803/

Jellybaby1 · 14-04-2019 11:34pm

spurious wrote: »

George Prescott's census return made me smile. The occupation(s) and to top it all the 'Refused' for religion.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003732803/

That's a good one all right. George thought he was writing his CV! Someone please confirm that Annie O'Rourke was born in Dulalee!

I'd also love to know what Annie O'Rourke and Blossie O'Sullivan had originally down under Marriage. Blossie is a great name as well.

pinkypinky · 15-04-2019 9:42am

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

Jellybaby1 · 15-04-2019 7:38pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

Probably a bit like theoretical maths!

Vetch · 15-04-2019 8:19pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

Brilliant return!

What are philosophical instruments?!

'Philosophical' might refer to natural philosophy by the other parts of the entry, so scientific instruments of some sort.

pedroeibar1 · 15-04-2019 11:20pm

Vetch wrote: »

'Philosophical' might refer to natural philosophy by the other parts of the entry, so scientific instruments of some sort.

Yes. A camera obscura is a philosophical instrument. Generally PIs were manufactured instruments used to artificially reproduce natural phenomena to enable their study in the lab.

Deja Boo · 08-05-2019 4:52am

Hmm, apparently the 5 year olds in the community had a bit of a reputation :eek: .....and minister's kids to boot, tsk tsk.

Dunno how they even came up with those titles.
Maybe census transcribers should train in our Handwriting thread before mis-labeling kids who were :pac: at home.

spurious · 08-05-2019 7:02am

There is the possibility for 'Arsehool' clear as day.:)
Perhaps they were Dutch.

looksee · 08-05-2019 9:49am

At home and at school.

Deja Boo · 08-05-2019 9:57am

yup

how did a transcriber not get that, I wonder.

Jellybaby1 · 08-05-2019 8:49pm

Transcriber just didn't look hard or long enough. Sometimes you just need to work it out for a minute, it will become clear!

DamoRed · 09-05-2019 10:11pm

A busy chap, George. Who said only women could multi-task? Definitely a man ahead of his time; this was multi-tasking 100 years before multi-tasking was even a thing!

shar01 · 18-05-2019 8:46am

Sad entry - no 359 - and interesting to see how a surname can come about.

https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1910/01562/1630668.pdf

Jellybaby1 · 18-05-2019 3:15pm

Oh that is sad. I searched 'unknown' on the church records and 27 came up but some were unknown parents and the child was given a name, random or not. A lot of babies left to either die or be found by accident. Too sad for words. Interesting marriage in Bagnalstown where the fathers of the couple were unknown.

shar01 · 18-05-2019 3:21pm

Found a newspaper report on it.

https://search.findmypast.ie/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0001873%2f19100611%2f100

Hermy · 21-05-2019 6:04pm

Where were you born?

This family were all born in a bed in Drogheda.

pinkypinky · 21-05-2019 8:13pm

I love it. So very literal.

tabbey · 21-05-2019 10:45pm

Hermy wrote: »

Where were you born?

This family were all born in a bed in Drogheda.

M Josephine was born in a bed elsewhere.

One wonders was life a bed of roses for this family, or a bed of nails.

Hermy · 21-05-2019 11:19pm

tabbey wrote: »

M Josephine was born in a bed elsewhere.

I missed that!:o

Funny/Unusual records

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