Principal Officer competition 2019

It's up to each dept to determine how it fulfills its staffing requirements, within budget. There could be a number of reasons for filling a PO post asap or for holding off for a while, so some vacancies will be notified to PAS very quickly and others may not be, depending on the dept's needs. There will likely be more vacancies in the next few months than there would have been without C19, but there probably won't be an immediate rush of them for PAS.

The appointments ratio is still the same - two appointments from the open panel for each internal appointment, with the wrinkle being that a dept can continue to make appointments from an internal panel, for example for specific expertise or operational needs, and owe places to the open panel, but at some stage it will have to accept open appointments to balance the books. My own dept has exhausted its internal panel, so will have to fill from the open panel until it runs another internal competition.

If that all seems a little gloomy, matching the weather, our panel is moving on steadily at the moment, so the next lot of placements should go ahead ok. Probably the main effect of Covid-based retirement decisions will be that the panel finishes earlier than it would have otherwise and well within the two years. Fingers crossed.

Grey AP wrote: »

And in very slowly breaking news - un petit oiseau has whispered that there may be another round of interviews in the autumn. If true, that would mean that they expect the panel to be done by then and that the panel is quite small, probably no more than seventy. I haven't heard of anyone beyond the sixties, but if anyone is higher than that, then it would be good to know. Also, it would tie in with AHCPS retirement stats, which would indicate about 70 placed this year.

(And just so no one is startled, this is a two year panel, so there wouldn't be new interviews until it is exhausted or the two years are up, whichever comes first - this would just show that PAS expects this panel to be finished this year.)


It’s probably wishful thinking to hope that this might happen?

Thanks. That makes sense alright.

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

hardybuck wrote: »

Are all POs in those departments on the PO1/Higher grade- if I remember the documentation right, most of this panel (top 60) would be eligible to apply for the PO panel (along with incumbent PO1s) though the chance of success is probably slim

Yes all APs and POs are AP Higher and PO Higher.

However I understand that one of those Depts. pulled in a handful of standard APs off the open panel in the recent past. When the next internal AP came up some of them got promoted to AP1 and some didn't. I think those who didn't make the cut might have received an allowance to make up the gap but I couldn't stand over that.

However the last PO1 was used by those Departments to bring in outside candidates.

hardybuck wrote: »

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Yes all APs and POs are AP Higher and PO Higher.

However I understand that one of those Depts. pulled in a handful of standard APs off the open panel in the recent past. When the next internal AP came up some of them got promoted to AP1 and some didn't. I think those who didn't make the cut might have received an allowance to make up the gap but I couldn't stand over that.

However the last PO1 was used by those Departments to bring in outside candidates.

I hadn't heard that about one of DPER/Taoiseach/Finance taking from the standard AP panel, very strange considering there is an active AP1 panel in place.

hardybuck wrote: »

You find it strange because there's an AP1 panel in place at the moment?

Yeah, there was an AP1 competition for DPER, D/Finance and D/Taoiseach last year and the panel hasn't expired. Given that those Departments normally only take AP1s I'm surprised they took regular APs when there was a panel of AP1s to call from.

hardybuck wrote: »

Perhaps you've assumed that I was referring to last year.

Do you know if that was the first ever open AP1?

Hi on the panel but new to public service. Can someone explain the situation with AP and AP1 and PO and PO1? I’m confused about some of the conversation here...if people are on this PO panel does it mean only eligible for some departments or level of jobs? Thanks!

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Hi Molly
Not a civil servant either but it's a different scale. Listed as Ap higher and PO higher im the salary scales.
The roles can only usually work in Taoiseachs, finance or DPER.

For Po higher its recruited through a separate competition. Our PO documentation suggested the first 60 people on this panel would be eligible along obviously with serving non higher POs who you'd imagine will get most places.

Think it's likely the same with APs.

I do know as well that sometimes other departments promote POs to PO higher scale based on service /seniority
Hope that helps

Yes thanks I hadn’t spotted that in the documentation - does eligible mean to enter a new competition or simply automatically eligible through place on panel?

@Hardybuck, it was an interdepartmental competition run over the summer last year. I applied and ranked in the early teens and haven't been offered anything yet, I think they have only placed about 10 so far.

@Molly Keane, to add to previous comments, each Department/Office/Agency has a number of higher scale positions they can award each year. The number that can be awarded varies depending on the number of higher scales already in place, number of retirements from those positions etc. My understanding is that DPER, D/Finance and D/Taoiseach only take AP1s & PO1s while other Departments would have a mixture of standard scale and higher scale at those grades. Also just to say that it's a different pay scale only, the work etc remains the same regardless of whether you are on the standard or higher scale.

Asimov2004 wrote: »

@Hardybuck, it was an interdepartmental competition run over the summer last year. I applied and ranked in the early teens and haven't been offered anything yet, I think they have only placed about 10 so far.

@Molly Keane, to add to previous comments, each Department/Office/Agency has a number of higher scale positions they can award each year. The number that can be awarded varies depending on the number of higher scales already in place, number of retirements from those positions etc. My understanding is that DPER, D/Finance and D/Taoiseach only take AP1s & PO1s while other Departments would have a mixture of standard scale and higher scale at those grades. Also just to say that it's a different pay scale only, the work etc remains the same regardless of whether you are on the standard or higher scale.

Best of luck with your future promotion to AP1. You might be able to give a qualified view on the last sentence then!

Asimov2004 wrote: »

Your comment is a bit out of line, I'm speaking from personal experience on my promotion to AP1 from an internal competition, I remained in the same post I had been in prior to appointment to AP1. This is true for all AP1 assignments in my Department. If that is not true from your own experience or within your Department you could have simply said so. There is no need to call in to question other people's qualifications to speak to a subject, particularly when my opinion/experience was shared in an attempt to assist others in understanding the processes a bit better. In future I'll ask that if your comments on my post can't be civil then don't bother commenting as this last remark was neither helpful nor warranted.

My apologies, you hadn't mentioned that you'd been promoted to the same job you were doing before. I can see how the work would remain the same in that scenario.

You previously mentioned that you were on a panel but hadn't been assigned yet. When congratulating you I was noting that you might notice a step up when you're assigned to an AP1 role in one of the central apartments. You might not, but you'd probably be able to offer a qualified opinion after you do - or maybe you'll get the PO first.

Best of luck again with the future promotion/new assignment.

Asimov2004 wrote: »

I'm hoping that the PO will come up first (obviously lol) otherwise will have to weigh up whether it is worth moving to another Department if I'm offered the AP1 Interdepartmental role for what would probably be only a very brief period of time as there are only 10 or so ahead of me on the PO panel. I guess I'm fortunate to have these decisions to make

Another option may be to take the InterD AP1 (bird in the hand, etc.) and if you like the new dept, ask PAS to prioritise that dept for the PO allocation. I'm sure they'll be amenable to at least trying. Also, presuming the AP1 move will be to a "central" dept, those ones tend to have a bit more pull in retaining/securing the people that they want.

Every day's a school day and you're never to old to learn something new. I didn't actually know there were interdepartmental AP1 or PO1 competitions (must read all those HR emails one day). I assume they are solely for recruitment to the central departments (Taoiseach's, DPER and Finance).

In the olden days, the central departments' APs and POs were all at higher level, unlike the paysans in the line departments. In the 1980s, Bertie Ahern reached a deal with unions where the line departments would be funded to have part of their budget set aside to place a portion of each grade on this higher scale. According to union veterans I have spoken to, this was effectively a long service reward for civil servants who were unlikely to be promoted further and, as these are not promotions (you are still in the same grade, just paid a bit more), were intended to be based solely on seniority. Nowadays, most, if not all, depts use a mixture of seniority and merit, usually 50/50. The percentage of each grade on the higher scale is at each dept's discretion, but seems to vary from about a fifth to about a third. My dept does this annually, to take account of transfers/promotions/retirements, and I got AP1 through this process. It's not a huge amount of cash, but better going to my moneylender than theirs.

Hi Folks

I am an infrequent user of Boards but I must say that the posters to this particular thread are extremely helpful to a non CS.

Can I ask has anyone confirmed with PAS the number that offers have been made from this panel - what number is it at ??
And is it the case that some on the panel may have been asked and have opted not to take the offer.

Many thanks

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

Hi celtic fan. I believe the number Grey Ap quoted (23) represents the number of people from the panel who have been approached by PAS in relation to PO vacancies to date from this panel. I don't know of any way to determine how many of these might have refused the offered assignment. Can't imagine it's many though unless people have been otherwise assigned via other internal or inter departmentmental panels

Inevitably a certain number won't take up posts. Maybe they'll have been promoted already, maybe they're holding out for a position in another geographical location. Shouldn't be too many, but I think geography was an issue a couple of years back when loads of regional candidates seemed to be holding on for regional posts and turning down Dublin.