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  • 18-05-2012 9:37am
    #1
    franc 91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭


    I'm interested in children's rhymes and I have a book and CD of them in Italian. I can more or less understand most of it as I am French-speaking, but many of the rhymes are in dialect which isn't easy to work out the meaning of. The book is called Coccole e Filastrocche compiled by Celia Carpi Germani e Giulia Baronchelli and it's published by Giunti Kids.
    The first is - Cianca del Mulino

    Cianca cianca del mulino
    un granel di panichino
    manda a dire alla mugnaia
    quanti pani ci se fa.
    La mugnaia manda a dire:
    uno, due, esci fuori
    che tocca a te.

    I've been told that in dialect cianca can mean a leg and also the sail of a windmill or perhaps in this case the shafts that the mill turns.
    I don't quite understand the last line - esci fuori - go out......
    The region it comes from is Ghivizzano (Lucca) and this is what you do with the baby when you recite the rhyme -

    Raccontata da una nonna che la proponeva sia come conta che, soprattutto, per giocare sul fasciatoio, muovendo alternativamente le braccia o le gambe del bambino.
    It's in the section on Giochi sul fasciatoio.

    Grazie mille
    Franc


Comments

  • #2
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    From what I've read cianca is apparently Roman dialect for a shank (as the part of the leg between the ankle and the knee), although this is not to say that the term did not exist elsewhere and is a throwback of medieval Italian. It may also be used as a slang term for gossip or chatter, but I can't confirm this.

    The second line ("un granel di panichino") is the most difficult for me. Granel appears to be a borrowed word from Spanish, meaning bulk, although part of me also thinks it may related to grano (grain). Panichino is clearly related to pane (bread), although what exactly it means I can't say.

    So baring in mind that the second line is difficult to translate and likely wrong, I'd translate it as:

    Shank, shank of the mill
    a small grain of (for) small bread
    sends word to (asks) the (female) miller
    how many loaves are you making.
    The (female) miller sends word (responds):
    One, two, out you go
    it's your turn now.

    In the context of a rhyme told to an infant, I'd imagine that it is accompanied by the parent playing with the child's legs, probably tickling the feet, which is alluded to in what you posted.


  • #3
    franc 91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭franc 91


    I understand - un granel di panichino - as a little piece of bread
    manda dire - for me means - asks to say
    Thanks for explaining the last line - I was really stuck there.
    There's a drawing of the baby lying on its back with somebody's hands (presumably those of either la nonna or la mamma) holding its ankles doing what the instructions say.
    In fact the whole book is beautifully illustrated with line drawings, though unfortunately not all the rhymes are on the CD, so you are scrabbling around trying to find which one fits the words on which page.
    This is what it says on the back cover -
    COCCOLE e FILASTROCCHE
    Une preziosa raccolta illustrata di giochi e rime che i genitori possono proporre ai loro piccoli, seguendo² l'andamento ritmico e musicale di filastrocche tradizionali nate proprio per sollecitare un rapporto di coccole con i bambini.
    Dalle notissime "Occhio bello, suo fratello...." e "Mano mano piazza, passo la lepre pazza" a testi regionali meno noti e tutti da scopire, sono circa cento le proposte di questo libro, da tenere sempre a portata di mano e .... di voce.
    Giunti Editore S.p.A. ISBN 978 88 09 06011 1
    (and for anyone interested in this field I can provide a list of books and CDs)


  • #4
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    franc 91 wrote: »
    I understand - un granel di panichino - as a little piece of bread
    Quite likely.
    Thanks for explaining the last line - I was really stuck there.
    That's how I interpreted it, although the same phrase can be used to say 'it's up to you'.

    It's difficult to get the original meaning of these rhymes sometimes, often because they are in antiquated language as much as any dialect. Even in English they've been debating where Ring a Ring o' Roses came from or what its about for years, for example.

    My great aunt, who regrettably passed away last year, would have easily been able to give a detailed explanation of everything in the rhyme. She was an encyclopaedia on the Italian language and the etymology of words, which was not surprising given that she spent hours every day chain-smoking and doing crossword puzzles, since her youth.


  • #5
    franc 91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭franc 91


    I just wanted to add that la mugnaia for me is the equivalent of the French word la meunière which is usually translated as the miller's wife. Traditionally the work in a watermill or windmill was only done by men. Women used a quern.


  • #6
    franc 91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭franc 91


    Here's the next one -

    Sega, sega, le gambe al riccio,
    se ti chiappo ti spelliccio,
    se ti chiappo a desinare
    ti finisco di spellicciare.
    L'altro giorno ti chiappai,
    ora to voglio più bene che mai!

    It comes from Filecchio (Lucca)

    Here are the instructions -
    Le filastrocche come questa, hanno un tipico andamento a "zigzag", e vengono solitamente usate con bambini più grandi, tenendoli sulle ginocchia o stando in piedi davanti a loro; si prendono le mani del bambino in modo da incrociare le braccia a X e si muovono alternativamente avanti e indientro, seguendo il ritmo della filastrocca. Noi le proponiamo qui, perché ci sono state quasi sempre indicate con una doppia funzione, anche come giochi sul fasciatoio. "Quando si cambiano i bambini piccoli, gli si muovono le cianche o le braccia avanti e indietro per giocare", ci raccontava uno zio toscano facendo i gesti come se le sue forti mani stessero effettivamente giocando con un bambino sgambettante su un fasciatoio.


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  • #7
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    A very quick translation:

    Work (run), work the hedgehog's legs,
    if I catch you, I'll pluck you,
    if I catch you, for dinner (you'll be)
    (when) I finish to pluck you.
    The other day I caught you,
    now I love you more than ever.

    In the first line, sega denotes sawing or in this case the frantic work of the legs to get away. Chiappo comes from chiappare, which is a Tuscan form of the standard Italian acchiappare (to catch).


  • #8
    franc 91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭franc 91


    It was chiappare that I was looking for - grazie
    You might like to know that the origin of that word goes back when Low Latin (Bas Latin) was evolving into Early French. The verb accaparer (acchiappare - ad-capare) dates back to when men wore cloaks and daggers - the idea of catching or overwhelming someone was expressed by the throwing of a cloak (capa) over the unfortunate victim. The opposite - échapper (scappare - to escape - ex-capare) was when someone was surrounded by thieves armed with swords and to get away, he would, at a critical moment, get out of his cloak hopefully leaving his aggressors with their swords stuck in it. It was a desperate move as a cloak was an expensive item of clothing.


  • #9
    New Home
    Moderators, Arts Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 76,341 Mod ✭✭✭✭New Home


    I know I'm over a year late with this but I only came across this now. To me "panichino" refers to "panìco", a type of cereal (setaria italica, aka foxtail millet in English or millet des oiseaux in French), which would make sense considering we're talking about a millerwoman.


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