Solicitors contributing to Ireland's Insurance Fraud Culture

Jurgen The German · 11-07-2019 8:15pm

@hullabaloo, cheers for the in depth post. Good to get another side of the coin.

I've worked in insurance for a decade in various capacities and I worked in underwriting for a number of years. PTSD was certainly too strong a term however I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of rear ending claims (where our insured was been claimed against) that did not also include some element of emotional distress cited - nervous passenger, more easily startled when driving in heavy traffic etc.

It is of course possible that all of these people did suffer some form of emotional distress but when people that are tipped into in a lidl car park or "rear ended" while in gridlock on the m50 are claiming it, well, it is difficult to swallow. Perhaps I'm made of hardier stuff but I've been involved in two or three crashes over the course of my life and not one of them have left any emotional scars.

Emotional trauma in and of itself is not reason enough to make a claim(generally speaking as there are precedents for just that as I'm sure you are aware), but it is used to paint a pretty picture of the accident so a bit of emotional stuff along with the ol whiplash sweetens the pot in terms of potential payouts.

The above is of course anecdotal and I have no way of definitively proving that some sections of the legal fraternity are prepping their clients for their doctors appointments or their day in court but when multiple unconnected people present with similar ailments following near carbon copy accidents, its naive to think there is no truth in what I'm saying.

Darc19 · 11-07-2019 8:18pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

A kid got €40,000 yesterday for being stuck in a lift for 45 mins with his father. Yeah I think the solicitors have a lot to answer for.

This is the new scam, "trauma" - whiplash is so last year.

The scammers have moved on.

nthclare · 11-07-2019 8:29pm

Caught a conger eel earlier while unhooking it I was fishing off a pier, while the eel was wriggling away i pulled the hook out and the pier impaled me with the hook....

It was absolutely traumatic, the eel got away lives another day...

That pier made me do it....

freshpopcorn · 11-07-2019 8:41pm

dhaughton99 wrote: »

A kid got €40,000 yesterday for being stuck in a lift for 45 mins with his father. Yeah I think the solicitors have a lot to answer for.

There was a time when he'd have gotten a bottle of coke and a bar of chocolate and he'd have a story to tell his friends.

dr.fuzzenstein · 11-07-2019 11:27pm

I do take Hullabaloo's points. Damn he's good!
If I need a barister, I'l be sure to check him out.
To cut my rant short, I still believe awards are way too high:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/whiplash-victims-awarded-average-of-20-000-for-injuries-1.3686262?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fcrime-and-law%2Fwhiplash-victims-awarded-average-of-20-000-for-injuries-1.3686262

Whiplash victims awarded average of €20,000 for injuries

So far the maximum seems to be achieved and exceeded most of the time.

Now Germany

https://www.bussgeldkatalog.org/schleudertrauma/

Prellungen & Schleudertrauma ersten Grades 13.000 € OLG München / 2014 (Az. 10 U 3341/13)
1st degree Bruises and whiplash, €13k

Schleudertrauma ca. 380 € AG Wiesbaden / 1993 (Az. 99 C 322/93)
Whiplash, € 380

Schleudertrauma der Hals-, Lenden- und Brustwirbelsäule ca. 7.700 € OLG Koblenz / 2004 (Az. 12 U 936/04)
Whiplash of neck, loin and chest, €7.7k

Leichtes Schleudertrauma mit Arbeitsunfähigkeit von acht Tagen 250 € LG München / 1994 (Az. 19 S 6068/94)
Light whiplash, out of work for 8 days, €250

Ausgeprägtes HWS-Schleudertrauma, Gehirnerschütterung, Schürfungen & Prellungen ca. 920 € AG Pfaffenhofen a.d.Ilm / 1997 (Az. 2 C 0391/97)
Severe whiplash of the neck (HWS, Halswirbelsäule), concussion, bruises, €920

https://www.fachanwalt.de/magazin/verkehrsrecht/schleudertrauma

You can have injuries wih a severity of 0, no symptoms, to 4, life threatening injuries, paralaysis and death.
Most injuries rank 0 to 2 (difficulty moving and bruising). Awards range between several hundred to several thousand Euro.
In order to qualify for an award of several thousand Euro, there has to be long-term damage and a cert from a doctor. Granted, you need that in Ireland too.

But I am near 100% certain that no court has ever awarded several hundred Euro for whiplash in Ireland.

Yes, some of those are a bit older. Awards have gone up. But the highest award here is €13k and I would see that as a standout sum.
If they do go up any higher, I would absolutely expect my premiums to go up.
It is business. There's no free lunch. The more you take out, the more you gotta put in.

Due to high costs, a VERY substantial problem with driving without insurance is prevelant in ireland

https://www.thejournal.ie/uninsured-drivers-mibi-dangers-3147326-Dec2016/
https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1219/839842-uninsured-drivers-motor-insurance/

Figures from 2016, but I don't expect a massive improvement.

Due to the way tax, insurance and NCT is intertwined with the registration of a vehicle, it is very difficult to drive without insurance. It is actually criminal to do so.
It is actually such a small problem, it is hard to even find stats on it, though this article seem to suggest that it may be several thousand people (out of millions) in Schelswig Holstein.

https://www.shz.de/regionales/schleswig-holstein/panorama/immer-mehr-autos-fahren-ohne-haftpflicht-durch-sh-id9852091.html

If I were to guess, it may be 10000 people in all of Germany. Remeber, Ireland it is 150000! 15 times as many as in ALL of Germany!

Kivaro · 12-07-2019 9:42am

Where is the resistance coming from to lower the cost of awards for something like whiplash? Why not have the awards (rewards) align with most other European countries? Anyone want to guess who is against this?
The Irish legal profession is the answer.

Reform is badly needed, as it is us plebs that have to pay for these unjustifiable awards. It is also a big part of the reason why insurance premiums for people in Ireland are four times higher than the EU average. That is an outrageous statistic.

dr.fuzzenstein · 12-07-2019 11:27am

Kivaro wrote: »

Where is the resistance coming from to lower the cost of awards for something like whiplash? Why not have the awards (rewards) align with most other European countries? Anyone want to guess who is against this?
The Irish legal profession is the answer.

Reform is badly needed, as it is us plebs that have to pay for these unjustifiable awards. It is also a big part of the reason why insurance premiums for people in Ireland are four times higher than the EU average. That is an outrageous statistic.

Well, looking at it from a purely business point of view, nobody likes their income slashed and their influence reduced, it is understandable that the legal profession in Ireland won't be cheerleading for any inititatives that could potentially do exactly that.
I don't think that property has been the cash generator it was before 2008, so it would not be welcomed if another source was reduced.
The interest of a business is to maximise revenue. Therefore any income stream has to be guarded and defended.
The real-life implications of that are rarely a concern, not when your livelihood is at stake.
Business nowadays is not concerned with the actual mechanics of what they do. They are concerned with income and profit.
Any change to that will have to be forced through against the resistance of the legal profession and seing how intertwined politics and the legal profession are, I don't see it happening.

Jurgen The German · 12-07-2019 1:10pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, looking at it from a purely business point of view, nobody likes their income slashed and their influence reduced, it is understandable that the legal profession in Ireland won't be cheerleading for any inititatives that could potentially do exactly that.
I don't think that property has been the cash generator it was before 2008, so it would not be welcomed if another source was reduced.
The interest of a business is to maximise revenue. Therefore any income stream has to be guarded and defended.
The real-life implications of that are rarely a concern, not when your livelihood is at stake.
Business nowadays is not concerned with the actual mechanics of what they do. They are concerned with income and profit.
Any change to that will have to be forced through against the resistance of the legal profession and seing how intertwined politics and the legal profession are, I don't see it happening.

It won't surprise me if any proposed changes to legislation face court challenges from the legal system, in the interest of the public dontchaknow.

Kivaro · 12-07-2019 2:30pm

Jurgen The German wrote: »

It won't surprise me if any proposed changes to legislation face court challenges from the legal system, in the interest of the public dontchaknow.

If our government had any backbone, they would introduce legislation to help us with this crippling insurance situation, and by us, I mean the other 4,866,223‬ people living in the country.
This is population of the country minus the 18,000 individuals on the Roll of Solicitors in Ireland.
So we have 4,866,223 versus 18,000. And yet, who holds the power?

NIMAN · 13-07-2019 4:22am

Ever been offended by a photo?

This punter was, and got £10000 for it!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/10000-for-civil-servant-offended-by-royal-portraits-38308344.html

Sonny noggs · 13-07-2019 9:48am

NIMAN wrote: »

Ever been offended by a photo?

This punter was, and got £10000 for it!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/10000-for-civil-servant-offended-by-royal-portraits-38308344.html

Some brass neck on the solicitor / barrister who represented him. He should have been laughed out of the solicitors office.

ChikiChiki · 13-07-2019 11:39am

Fine Gael inaction on this speaks volumes. It's a major issue and they have the power to ram home legislation lowering compensation payments.

What the **** is stopping them. It's very obvious what needs to be done and would be a much needed win for a party that is certainly on the back foot going into the next GE.

mfceiling · 13-07-2019 11:45am

dhaughton99 wrote: »

A kid got €40,000 yesterday for being stuck in a lift for 45 mins with his father. Yeah I think the solicitors have a lot to answer for.

I got stuck in a lift last year for 50 mins. Pressed the alarm button and it rang an external bell which did nothing. I had to call the lift companies number to get them to help.
Was asked by the lift company if I needed any help afterwards or counselling!! What the fcuk is the world coming to? I didn't die and was in no immediate danger.
Should have brazened it out and stiffed them for 50K.

dr.fuzzenstein · 13-07-2019 4:00pm

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Fine Gael inaction on this speaks volumes. It's a major issue and they have the power to ram home legislation lowering compensation payments.

What the **** is stopping them. It's very obvious what needs to be done and would be a much needed win for a party that is certainly on the back foot going into the next GE.

To my mind stories of brazen awards cases have been going on here for a long time. I came over in the 90's and I remember cases of crazy awards of scratches and owies.
But to my mind, the worst case of them all was Stephanie Knox, who thought it would be a good idea to sue the family of the Buncranna pier tragedy for compensation when she suffered trauma because 5 people had the audacity to die in front of her.
Sure, she came out with some mealy-mouthed bulls*t how it wasn't just her claiming and how she thought she didn't sue the family, etc...
But that is the crassest, most disrespectful, heartless, soulless pure moneygrab on the back of dead people I have ever seen.

It used to be just "ouch my neck hurts a bit", but maybe that is too easily proven, so has been replaced by "I'm traumatised!"
Funny how people turn into cowering snowflakes once the prospect of money rears it's head.

Sean.3516 · 13-07-2019 4:06pm

I don’t blame the solicitors.

The job of the solicitor is simply to represent the claimant and pursue the claim if there is a possibility of getting restitution.

I blame a system in which obviously dubious claims are non the less capable of resulting in a payout. I blame that and the dishonesty of individuals who’ve allowed it to develop into a culture.

Perhaps legislation is needed to curb this.

McCrack · 13-07-2019 4:10pm

mfceiling wrote: »

I got stuck in a lift last year for 50 mins. Pressed the alarm button and it rang an external bell which did nothing. I had to call the lift companies number to get them to help.
Was asked by the lift company if I needed any help afterwards or counselling!! What the fcuk is the world coming to? I didn't die and was in no immediate danger.
Should have brazened it out and stiffed them for 50K.

Yes fair play to you

That's you, other people might not be so resilient being involuntary locked in a confined space for any period or may have anxiety etc issues and if theres an exacerbation etc which is certified of a condition then compensation should be paid

dr.fuzzenstein · 14-07-2019 8:26am

McCrack wrote: »

Yes fair play to you

That's you, other people might not be so resilient being involuntary locked in a confined space for any period or may have anxiety etc issues and if theres an exacerbation etc which is certified of a condition then compensation should be paid

That should be one change. If every reasonable effort has been made to make sure that the facilities are safe to use, it should not be the fault of the provider of said facilities that someone is being traumatised due to an unforseen event.

Nermal · 14-07-2019 9:56am

McCrack wrote: »

That's you, other people might not be so resilient being involuntary locked in a confined space for any period or may have anxiety etc issues and if theres an exacerbation etc which is certified of a condition then compensation should be paid

Certified how, exactly? Is there a brain scan or blood test that can detect claustrophobia?

‘Certified’ in this context means a psychologist signing a report that says ‘little Timmy says he has claustrophobia’. Somewhat open to abuse, don’t you think?

Kivaro · 14-07-2019 12:23pm

Sean.3516 wrote: »

I don’t blame the solicitors.

I most definitely blame the solicitors.
On Friday, a number of different claims, coincidentally involving Wards and McDonaghs again, were thrown out of the Longford Circuit Court due to them being fraudulent. “Deliberately and falsely exaggerated” were the words the judge used; I use the word "fraud".
Four ambulances arrived on the scene of a minor tip (no damage) at a roundabout and two of the passengers were assisted out of the taxi while the other two were removed on spinal boards. The driver of the offending car was wearing a hoodie and disappeared after the "accident". Four ambulances! Jesus, for those of you who had the necessity to call for an ambulance due to a very sick parent/relative, you know the agonising wait that it could take for one to show up.

In a different case during the same sitting, another McDonagh's case was dismissed after he sued the county council for tripping over a hole in the footpath. He claimed he could not run his usual 10km per day and suffered from depression as a result. Hmmmm, where have we heard that before?

And in another (third) case that involved a McDonagh, a case for defamation against SuperValue was also dismissed by the same judge.

What was the common denominator in each of these fraudulent/dismissed cases?
All of the claimants in these lawsuits were represented by Longford-based solicitor Fergus Feeney. You can read more about these false compensation claims in the Irish Times.

So hell yeah, I damn well blame solicitors for contributing greatly to the insurance compensation crisis that we have in this country.

Gatling · 15-07-2019 8:00pm

This is another prime example that needs looking at,

Bus breaks and lurched a small bit ,no passengers moved during this and no injuries reported except for a mother who decided her child was injured in some way

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/young-boy-who-stopped-talking-and-cries-at-the-sight-of-buses-after-minor-accident-loses-15k-claim-against-dublin-bus-38314414.html

is_that_so · 15-07-2019 10:48pm

Gatling wrote: »

This is another prime example that needs looking at,

Bus breaks and lurched a small bit ,no passengers moved during this and no injuries reported except for a mother who decided her child was injured in some way

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/young-boy-who-stopped-talking-and-cries-at-the-sight-of-buses-after-minor-accident-loses-15k-claim-against-dublin-bus-38314414.html

DB and CIE are one of the few entities who contest every suit. Language delay is far more likely to be down to the combination of languages he's exposed to.

Harry Palmr · 15-07-2019 11:31pm

Looking through the book of quantum, striking how much you can get for a nose that isn't damaged - just the pain and discomfort to deal with. And how little you get for losing the significant use of one.

Minor €18,000 to €22,100
Simple non-displaced fracture to the nose which has substantially recovered.

This should be 10k max

Severe and permanent conditions €44,500 to €63,900
Complex and multiple fractures to the nasal bones which required extensive
surgery and may have lasting consequences on the ability to smell.

Index Finger – total up to €61,200
---
Little Finger – partial up to €41,600

There is no logical progression there at all. Dunno about you but I could live without the tip on my little finger easily enough unless I was a typist. A whole index finger on the other hand (!) would be pretty bad news.

Gatling · 15-07-2019 11:33pm

is_that_so wrote: »

. Language delay is far more likely to be down to the combination of languages he's exposed to.

Yeah exactly what I was thinking , some of the Kids I work with would have similar language delays through no ones fault ,
Still don't get the whole getting justice for me came from and he's supposedly afraid something will happen to mammy on a bus ,
I'd say it's been drilled into him

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-07-2019 8:20pm

The 'fear of buses' case could likely be cured by a phone call those two sometimes on the tv box - 'the Speakmans'
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/mother-who-claimed-son-cannot-talk-after-bus-accident-loses-case-against-dublin-bus-937059.html

A young boy, who allegedly stopped talking and would not let his mother get on a bus after a minor accident when he was a baby, has lost a €15,000 damages claim against Dublin Bus

They've cured all kinds of folks from their unfounded phobias in just seconds.

10mins of CBT is even easier (and cheaper than 15k) when CCTV shows that the bus didn't even jolt, or any other passengers actually move.

Counsel said CCTV evidence showed the child was in a buggy at the time of the incident and he 'did not move' and was dangling his feet. 'Other passengers did not move either' when the bus braked, the court heard.

Jurgen The German · 16-07-2019 9:09pm

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/girl-who-fractured-ankle-jumping-off-trampoline-awarded-35000-38318469.html

Damn insurance companies, something something cartel, something something fat cats, something something they are teddible Joe.

This country is a fcuking joke.

I seen earlier the puck fair has had to start a go fund me in order to assist funding its rising insurance costs among other expenses.

The more of these nonsense claims that get paid the more businesses and events that will suffer. Then you'll have parents complaining that there are no play / adventure centres to take the kids to.

It's a shambles, an absolute shambles.

Kivaro · 25-07-2019 9:03am

In another example of fraud that appears on a daily basis in our newspapers, we see a story of a taxi driver who had four previous damage claims from various car crashes. Chris Nwachukwu, as evidence, submitted invoices for damages that actually predated the accident in yesterday's case.

Which brings us to the legal representative of this fraudster, Barrister John Nolan. Either we have the most inept solicitors/barristers in this country or they are actively involved in these fraud causes. As part of due diligence for this case, would you not expect the barrister to examine the evidence he is presenting in court on behalf of his client? You know, the evidence that is proving fraud? Of course, we got the usual spiel from the barrister i.e. "he would not have taken on his client’s case had he been aware of the information that had come to light during the trial." Why wait for the trial? Were you expecting a settlement from the insurance company prior to the court case and then got caught when the insurance company proceeded witht the case?
I suppose he also forgot to ask our Nigerian friend if he was involved in any other claims? Maybe that would have been a warning sign for this barrister?

The good news is on dismissing the €60,000 claim Judge O’Donohoe told Nwachukwu he was awarding costs against him and was going to send details of his case to the Director of Public Prosecutions immediately.

Good luck on collecting the costs!

More here.

Tokyo · 25-07-2019 1:11pm

Kivaro wrote: »

I suppose he also forgot to ask our Nigerian friend if he was involved in any other claims? Maybe that would have been a warning sign for this barrister?

Where in the article does it mention he's Nigerian?

Kivaro · 25-07-2019 3:05pm

mike_ie wrote: »

Where in the article does it mention he's Nigerian?

Nwachukwu?
Nwachukwu is an Igbo name for boys meaning God's child, and Igbo is the principal native language of the Igbo people, an ethnic group of southeastern Nigeria.

If anyone wants to see a pic of the fraudster, as he should be out-ed as a fraudster who causes all our premiums to be higher, here it is:

Chris%20Nwachukwu3.jpg

Boggles · 25-07-2019 3:31pm

Jurgen The German wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/girl-who-fractured-ankle-jumping-off-trampoline-awarded-35000-38318469.html

Damn insurance companies, something something cartel, something something fat cats, something something they are teddible Joe.

Am? The insurance company settled?

Approving the settlement, Mr Justice Kevin Cross said it was a good one and there was a risk if the case went on Ms O'Gorman - of Shanliss Avenue, Santry - may not succeed.

Bit of a hint from the Judge there.

Tokyo · 25-07-2019 3:52pm

Kivaro wrote: »

Nwachukwu?
Nwachukwu is an Igbo name for boys meaning God's child, and Igbo is the principal native language of the Igbo people, an ethnic group of southeastern Nigeria.

I'm aware of the etymology of the name, however there's nothing in the article to say he's Nigerian by birth. Maybe stick to the facts and stop blurring the lines with the old Nigerian = scammer chestnut.

Solicitors contributing to Ireland's Insurance Fraud Culture

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