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If the world goes completely vegan

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    #242
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    purplesnack wrote: »
    Everything that I read seems to say that soy beans are grown for meal, which most of is used for animal feed

    Everything I read too suggests this, but the farmers on boards seem to think otherwise, that animal feed is grown primarily for humans and would be grown even if we were all vegans. It's the problem with the internet sometimes, there's just too much information and you can pick and choose a la carte to prove a point until no one really knows what's real any more.


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    #243
    Unearthly
    Registered Users Posts: 7,981 ✭✭✭Unearthly


    EPA with some bad news about Ireland

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/climate-change-epa-state-of-the-environment-report-5277733-Nov2020/%3famp=1


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    #244
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I saw that, agriculture way out in front as no 1 polluter, and we are still pumping human waste into rivers, it's shocking.
    What's even more shocking is commenters on that article trying to blame India and China for our water and air quality, this is the type of absolute dumb f*cks you're up against.


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    #245
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Unearthly wrote: »
    EPA with some bad news about Ireland

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/climate-change-epa-state-of-the-environment-report-5277733-Nov2020/%3famp=1

    Looks like they aim to make it even worse, yay

    https://twitter.com/swanireland/status/1331619129405673477

    https://twitter.com/swanireland/status/1331621664287690754


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    #246
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The dairy cow numbers have gone up considerably, the suckler cow numbers have come down considerably..
    ( The catch is dairy tends to be a lot more intensive than suckler cow farming ) ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #247
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Markcheese wrote: »
    The dairy cow numbers have gone up considerably, the suckler cow numbers have come down considerably..
    ( The catch is dairy tends to be a lot more intensive than suckler cow farming ) ..

    Oh good - a bumper year for our live exports market.


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    #248
    strobey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8 ✭strobey


    jaxxx wrote: »
    [skip to 4th paragraph if you want to get straight to the point of this thread]



    Hello all. First off, I ain't vegan/vegetarian so let's get that outta the way swiftly. There's one thing which I've never seen being discussed, and something I'd love to get an overview on what vegans think about it. I have a huge respect for animals and the natural world, even though yes I'm a meat eater, though not a huge meat eater to be perfectly honest. Anyways I'm not here to discuss that.

    Please don't take this as any attack on veganism or anything of the sort. I've seen plenty of people attacking veganism, I even read recently some idiots referring to it as a religion. My head is still sore from how hard I facepalmed myself after reading that drivel. I'm genuinely interested in all your opinions on this.

    Let's say tomorrow the entire world goes vegan, just like that. Would it be a good thing if that happened? Honestly, I think it would. God knows we've been doing enough damage to the planet for millennia now, including countless harm towards animals, plants and so on. But the thing I have never seeing being discussed is this:

    What happens to all the farm animals? Cows, pigs, chickens, and all the rest. They can't be released into the wild, they're no longer part of the wild ecosystem much like ourselves. If they were released into the wild, in my opinion we'd only be causing even more damage to wildlife. There would be much more pressure on natural food sources for herbivores. If you take cows, pigs and sheep, there are no predators here to control their populations. Young piglets and lambs would be susceptible to birds of prey alright, but adults? The largest terrestrial predator we have is the badger and I'm no wildlife expert but badgers surely wouldn't be able to take down adults, cows especially? There were calls there not too long ago for wolves to be reintroduced into Ireland. I actually think this should be done, absolutely.

    If we don't release them into the wild, what then? Cull them all? I don't think anyone wants that. But we cannot release them into the wild, as I said before they haven't been part of the natural ecosystem in centuries. What becomes of them all then? I'm genuinely interested in what anyone has to say about this. I know it's a bit weird, going from humans killing farm animals to how they would be killed in the wild. But we've been playing god for far too long, and have caused untold damage to our planet. Look at the amount of damage that has been caused to the Amazon rainforest because of farming. When I was in school, it was said that there was like 40 football fields worth of forest lost every day. Is it the same today? All this because of farming.

    I love animals, I do. And I know that sounds hypocritical seeing as how I eat meat. But I look beyond that, I look at the wider effects on the planet, or I try my best to at least. If the world went completely vegan, what does become of all these farm animals?I really would love to know everyone's opinions on this. Thank you.

    It's a ****ing mess alright Jaxxx. Ideally I suppose we'd as a species and society adopt and care for as many of them as we could, unfortunately have to neuter the majority of them, and then give the ones that we have decided to care for as good as possible a life as we could as some kind of not nearly adequate enough reparation for the horrible ****ing generations of abuse. When the populations are small enough, try to find somewhere suitable to repatriate them. It's a real ****ing mess.


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    #249
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

    Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?


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    #250
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Everything I read too suggests this, but the farmers on boards seem to think otherwise, that animal feed is grown primarily for humans and would be grown even if we were all vegans. It's the problem with the internet sometimes, there's just too much information and you can pick and choose a la carte to prove a point until no one really knows what's real any more.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/25/revealed-uk-supermarket-and-fast-food-chicken-linked-to-brazil-deforestation-soy-soya

    This is a great investigation and article on how the soy grown in the Amazon is feeding British chickens. I'll point out of course, as we have been vegsplained to already, the soy is grown for human consumption primarily, or something.


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    #251
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »

    I'll point out of course, as we have been vegsplained to already...

    - perfect expression for this; thank you


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    #252
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    - perfect expression for this; thank you

    I think it's a word we might use a lot in this forum


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    #253
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    https://www.cargill.co.uk/en/liverpool-location

    Its crushed for oil it never mentioned that in the article.


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    #254
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    https://www.cargill.co.uk/en/liverpool-location

    Its crushed for oil it never mentioned that in the article.

    We know. It's all a conspiracy.


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    #255
    ElKavo
    Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭ElKavo


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/02/no-kill-lab-grown-meat-to-go-on-sale-for-first-time

    Cultured fake chicken approved in Singapore. I wonder how long before this kind of stuff will become available in Europe?

    With this type of tech it will only get smaller and smaller, faster and faster. Eventually it will become a microwave or oven sized appliance that will create food items quickly and in your home.

    Eventually there will be no need for farmed animals. No need for the processes they are subjected to, conditions they are kept in, or slaughter etc. This will be part of the gradual process that I see in moving the world to a "plant based" diet, yet still eating "meat". The "meat" that is grown can be made to be far better for people to eat than animal meat, it could have a higher nutritional value yet remove the bad parts. Any animal farmer with half a brain can see this coming and that is why they do all they can to detract from the choice that so many of us make, by any means necessary.


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    #256
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    We know. It's all a conspiracy.

    Yeah it's all a conspiracy I think the farmers a making the supermarket chains sell food for nothing as well. You know so they can get up in the morning and do more work for less.

    The point about the oil was it was a big omission from the the article. It never gives a percentage on what it's been used for either.

    Who owns the smurf account from Saturday night?


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    #257
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Do you think it would all be grown anyway if it wasnt used for animal feed?


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    #258
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Do you think it would all be grown anyway if it wasnt used for animal feed?

    I don't really know, would it be swapped out for palm oil. But surly they could of broke down the uses if it was such a groundbreaking investigation.


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    #259
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    I don't really know, would it be swapped out for palm oil. But surly they could of broke down the uses if it was such a groundbreaking investigation.

    Edit : Just to clarify I don't know because I am having a hell of a time trying to locate solid figures on what products are produced and value of the products produced.


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    #260
    richie123
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭richie123


    That lab grown meat is years away.
    50 dolllers for a chicken nugget ??
    Maddness,its 30 year minimum before it hits a price point close on today's prices.
    When it does hit that price point the countryside will just be abandoned.
    Beware of the law of unintended consequences.


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    #261
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Abandoned countryside brimming with wildlife and trees id what some people want :)


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    #262
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Gary kk wrote: »
    https://www.cargill.co.uk/en/liverpool-location

    Its crushed for oil it never mentioned that in the article.


    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

    http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

    Perhaps some of this 33% of all of the croplands in use, in the world, produces from soy bean oil for human consumption as well - well, we can only hope. But I'm not sure that this detracts much from the argument that animal husbandry is a huge driver for deforestation and habitat loss.


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    #263
    richie123
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭richie123


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Abandoned countryside brimming with wildlife and trees id what some people want :)

    I know :)
    Any one know of any companies doing labgrown meat in a quicker timescale and at a cheaper price point ?


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    #264
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    richie123 wrote: »
    I know :)
    Any one know of any companies doing labgrown meat in a quicker timescale and at a cheaper price point ?

    Not yet, but some day, i reckon. I cant see it ever replacing meat totally it will just be another option, so you wont be out of a job any time soon.


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    #265
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Edit : Just to clarify I don't know because I am having a hell of a time trying to locate solid figures on what products are produced and value of the products produced.

    If you look at it from a veggie/vegan perspective, the only place we hear that this stuff is grown for humans primarily, is a few posters on boards. It's not just the Guardian who I know farmers hate, even the Daily Mail are running stories on the Amazon being destroyed for British meat.
    I mean should one of you not inform these news agencies that they're wrong?


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    #266
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    If you look at it from a veggie/vegan perspective, the only place we hear that this stuff is grown for humans primarily, is a few posters on boards. It's not just the Guardian who I know farmers hate, even the Daily Mail are running stories on the Amazon being destroyed for British meat.
    I mean should one of you not inform these news agencies that they're wrong?

    At this stage if you can give me a breakdown of the numbers from the EU or UN I will take them at face value.

    To be fair it's been a while since the Guardain was unbiased.


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    #267
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    "Twenty-six percent of the Planet’s ice-free land is used for livestock grazing
    and 33 percent of croplands are used for livestock feed production. "

    http://www.fao.org/3/ar591e/ar591e.pdf

    Perhaps some of this 33% of all of the croplands in use, in the world, produces from soy bean oil for human consumption as well - well, we can only hope. But I'm not sure that this detracts much from the argument that animal husbandry is a huge driver for deforestation and habitat loss.

    And of the 66% cropland how much is for confectionery for alcohol and other products we don't necessarily need maybe we could rewind that land first. And no I don't expect anyone to agree to that.


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    #268
    El Tarangu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    richie123 wrote: »
    That lab grown meat is years away.
    50 dolllers for a chicken nugget ??
    Maddness,its 30 year minimum before it hits a price point close on today's prices.
    When it does hit that price point the countryside will just be abandoned.
    Beware of the law of unintended consequences.

    While I am hope (indeed, I'm certain) that the farmers of Ireland will be able to adapt and compete with this new entrant to the market, I'm afraid that I don't really find it a compelling argument to continue killing 50,000,000,000 chickens* each and every year in order to safeguard against some job losses in the poultry industry

    * indeed the figure is actually much, much greater than that - this only counts the number of chickens killed in order to eat their meat; it doesn't count the chickens killed in egg production who are too old to lay everyday any longer, or the male chicks in egg production, who, not to harp on this point, are ground up alive the day they are born.


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    #269
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    And of the 66% cropland how much is for confectionery for alcohol and other products we don't necessarily need maybe we could rewind that land first. And no I don't expect anyone to agree to that.

    Some of us need alcohol


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    #270
    Gary kk
    Registered Users Posts: 675 ✭✭✭Gary kk


    Thelonious Monk wrote: »
    Some of us need alcohol

    Lol me included.


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    #271
    Thelonious Monk
    Registered Users Posts: 13,743 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Gary kk wrote: »
    Lol me included.

    You can make quite a lot of alcohol with not that much sugar and a packet of yeast and a few flavourings, I make a ginger beer easy enough that comes in at about 7.2%, I wonder what the biological footprint of that is.


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