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Reopening Primary Schools - Discussion for Teachers/ SNAs/ Secretaries
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31-07-2020 3:28pm#1This is a thread specifically geared towards those who work in primary schools.
You are already well aware of the issues. I'm looking for your views/ possible workarounds.
There are the obvious social distancing issues which have cropped up in the roadmap. More of that will no doubt arise in this thread.
I have a lot of questions but I'll start with just a few.
Social Distancing
A pipedream. It was never going to be possible in Irish schools with our numbers.
I actually think I preferred the guidelines that came out at the end of June which stated that it wasn't going to be manageable in primary schools.
Now that we have to try it (I was particularly amused at the diagram with the 11 apparently legless children in the class), we'll be spending a huge chunk of time trying to enforce it.
We know we'll be in violation of social distancing recommendations every day, multiple times per day. It will just further eat into our teaching time.
I'll be dressing up as a guinea pig this Halloween!
Wiping down shared books
In our school, we don't have "class readers". We operate a guided reading programme (PM Readers) where every child is in a group reading a book at their appropriate level. You could have weaker fourth class children reading a set of books one day after a brighter 1st class group has read them. All books are kept in a central location.
The SET changes them as required - generally once per week, sometimes more often at the starter levels. According to the guidance, the cover of these books should be wiped. However, this just seems to me to be a token gesture. The children touch every page of these books. It's not practical to wipe every page.
So what do we do?
I think it would take a huge amount of time for the SET to clean the books.
One suggestion might be to have children wipe the books, collect all books on a Friday and leave them untouched until Monday, thus hoping any germs might be neutralised by then?
Sports Equipment
Our Sports equipment is currently centrally stored. According to the guidance, shared sports equipment should be cleaned after use. We only have half hour slots in the PE hall. It would eat into PE time to have to clean equipment.
My suggestion - Split the equipment between classes (we've been asking for PE equipment storage areas around the school grounds for years). Or nominate a few children to wipe the equipment to speed up the process. I think we may have to abandon bib usage this year as they certainly can't be cleaned between uses.
Art Materials
According to the guidance, pupils should be encouraged to have their own individual art and equipment supplies.
Our children have their own markers, crayons, pritt stick but that's it.
Teachers have their own stash of paintbrushes, scissors, etc.
Do you think we should be asking children to buy their own? It'll be a huge outlay if we have to buy individual ones from this year's subscription.
Possible workaround - Maybe teachers could place a number on the paintbrushes/ scissors they currently have. Assign a number to a child. That's the child's paintbrush/ scissors for the year.
Yard time
I work in a large school with multiple classes at each level. I don't think it's feasible to have each class outside at a separate time. We'd be having our lunch at 9.30 am! I think we'd be better off saying that lunchtime is from
11:00 - 11:30 Junior and Senior Infants (they'd be going home earlier)
11:30 - 12:00 1st and 2nd Classes
12:00 - 12:30 3rd and 4th Classes
12:30 - 1:00 5th and 6th Classes
It sounds great like that but I have no doubt that it would result in timetable nightmares!
SET
I'll be a SET next year.
Between covering classes for absent teachers and possibly having to cater for children with underlying conditions who have to work from home, I doubt very much I'll have time to deal with the children on my caseload.
I think children who have SEN will get a very raw deal next year in terms of attention from the SET.
Correcting Copies
Other than hold my pen at its base and not touch the copy, I have no answers for this one. Yuk!5
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Beyond saying "it doesn't work" I don't know what else I can say on social distancing :pac: Like you I would have preferred the State to just be honest and say social distancing at primary level isn't workable (in most schools. Those who can, go for it).
Tbh the major risk of transmission is herding 30+ people into a room together. If it's fine to do that, then using copybooks should be fine too. I'm reluctant to implement too many measures around copies, materials, wiping books etc as I feel a lot of it is just performative hygiene theatre. I've no intention of creating excess workload for myself. I read that the studies on COVID surface transfer used huge quantities of the virus - it would equal something like 100 sneezes in one location - so they aren't totally reflective of reality. I'm not saying don't take precautions but I am not going to get too wrapped up in these issues.
I do morning play in set groups with my class. I think in September I will just do it Tues - Fri and then quarantine materials for 72 hours before rotating items. I can probably run anything dishwasher proof through the dishwasher too.
You could probably take a similar approach to the above for PE materials. Maybe materials could be collected into different bundles, each focused on separate strands. These material packs could be rotated at Halloween/Christmas etc. You could also do a focus on dance, athletics or other activities that don't require much equipment.
Books - you could have a quarantine box perhaps? Maybe only allow book return on a Thursday and then quarantine materials for 72 hours.
Materials - probably have kids bring in stationery for use in school and don't let it go home. I have cheap IKEA file folders in my cupboards, one per child. They keep all pencil cases in there (it also helps to limit the amount of useless shíte being brought in). Should probably also mandate each child having their own scissors/glue etc. You could stick dry erase dots on tables to use as whiteboards too which would limit material sharing.
I plan on using online platforms occasionally with the children to keep them trained up for if/when we close again. I always put QR codes linking to online platforms in diaries and will repeat that next year too.
Some schools are talking about dropping homework, which I actually agree with outside of COVID times. Beyond reading and tables I don't think it would be a huge loss.
SET will be all over the place next year unfortunately. I don't know what the answer is there.0 -
Thanks for starting this practical thread, hopefully it will help everyone come up with some solutions!
I think a lot of what has been written above are great ideas and definitely workable. We have book rental and each child has a number for their book. These numbers cpuld be used for paintbrushes, whiteboards and whiteboard markers.
I'm envisioning each child keeping their books in baskets. No collecting of books in stacks to be put on shelves or if they are they will have to be left for 72 hrs/wiped down, and it will be the teacher collecting them when children are not in the room.
I have not come up with a solution for correcting copies/checking work. I know the chances of spreading through surface contact is small but it is still in my mind. I am thinking I will do a lot of work with children writing work on whiteboards to hold up. I am also considering continuing using the online resources for children to send in their homework rather than me collect copies or I would be completely on board with dropping homework. Never was a huge fan but that's another argument!!
Lastly my biggest worry is social distancing or the lack there of. It is really hard to listen to people say that it will be safe to return once the guidelines of hand washing and social distancing take place. Social distancing is not possible in my classroom or most classrooms in my school.0 -
Just to add on homework, apparently some schools will give practical homework (so all that measuring you’d normally do for Capacity, for example). That could be a good idea. Maybe you set a homework menu for the week (instead of nightly work, might be easier to parents to plan around) and then assign the active tasks the week before you start the topic in school?
Definitely agree on the numbering, even in normal times it’s so handy. Infants could each have a little picture or symbol perhaps?0 -
The first post was very comprehensive and I don’t want to be critical but I wouldn’t have children wiping down anything but their own workspace that they have used. I don’t think giving some of them the job to wipe down PE equipment or any other equipment is a goer. We are doing as a means of virus control. Surely it would put them at more risk to be handling everything as they clean it.
The big area I have concerns about would be SET. I have to say I’m annoyed that supporting children with distance learning has just been passed over to SET. Why? You can bet if it was said class teachers will have to cater for... there would be uproar. But leaving it that SET will have to, nothing is said. Are they increasing the allocation of SET to cater for this? No. In fact they are adding in subbing for mainstream class teachers as a recognised duty. They have also specified that children with SEN returning will need special consideration and increased help but then create circumstances where it will be near impossible to give that help.
They have stated to keep children in class bubbles and avoid mixing with other bubbles. Yet the SET, in advice from their helpline, can continue to work in class in multiple classes, take withdrawal groups, even work in more than one school- so long as they adhere to the health and safety guidelines (of no SD, no mask, mix with well over a hundred people a day but wash your hands regularly).
Returning to supporting distance learning, I really feel there needs to be more guidance on this. What if a school has 20-30 children whose parents decide won’t be returning for whatever reason- underlying illness, family member with underlying illness, decided it’s not safe to, concerned over lack of SD, don’t want to use public transport or school bus etc. Are we obliged to support them all? What level of support will be expected? If they are to be treated like any other child on the SET books, they would be lucky to get half an hour, 3 times a week (but nothing on days the SET is asked to sub, is covering classes so teacher can have a break, SET is absent, SET is supervising children in isolation area, SET is covering for SNA, etc )0 -
The first post was very comprehensive and I don’t want to be critical but I wouldn’t have children wiping down anything but their own workspace that they have used. I don’t think giving some of them the job to wipe down PE equipment or any other equipment is a goer. We are doing as a means of virus control. Surely it would put them at more risk to be handling everything as they clean it.
The big area I have concerns about would be SET. I have to say I’m annoyed that supporting children with distance learning has just been passed over to SET. Why? You can bet if it was said class teachers will have to cater for... there would be uproar. But leaving it that SET will have to, nothing is said. Are they increasing the allocation of SET to cater for this? No. In fact they are adding in subbing for mainstream class teachers as a recognised duty. They have also specified that children with SEN returning will need special consideration and increased help but then create circumstances where it will be near impossible to give that help.
They have stated to keep children in class bubbles and avoid mixing with other bubbles. Yet the SET, in advice from their helpline, can continue to work in class in multiple classes, take withdrawal groups, even work in more than one school- so long as they adhere to the health and safety guidelines (of no SD, no mask, mix with well over a hundred people a day but wash your hands regularly).
Returning to supporting distance learning, I really feel there needs to be more guidance on this. What if a school has 20-30 children whose parents decide won’t be returning for whatever reason- underlying illness, family member with underlying illness, decided it’s not safe to, concerned over lack of SD, don’t want to use public transport or school bus etc. Are we obliged to support them all? What level of support will be expected? If they are to be treated like any other child on the SET books, they would be lucky to get half an hour, 3 times a week (but nothing on days the SET is asked to sub, is covering classes so teacher can have a break, SET is absent, SET is supervising children in isolation area, SET is covering for SNA, etc )
SET next year is a joke. It is not feasible to have SET cover classes , provide support to their allocated caseload amd provide online support. My reading of support for online learning is that it is for those who fall into the very high risk category which is a very very small cohort of children. The difficulty arises when understandably anxious parents keep their children at home who may have a n illness that means they are at risk ( ie a substantial cohort of asthmatics woukd be in the at risk category , a small cohort in the high risk category and a very very small cohort in the very high risk category) on the assumption that the school will / is obliged to cater for them. This has the potential to cause huge issues for any SET team. SET next year will be pulled from pillar to post - remit is far too wide to be beneficial to anyone.0 -
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For parents or anyone who doesn't actually work in a primary school, the "pod" system sounds like a great way to keep their kids safe in school.
However, those of us who work in classrooms know that "pods" have to change a number of times over the course of a day/ week. The bubble will get burst multiple times in the week.
Children might work in one ability group for Literacy but a different ability group for Maths.
We often have mixed ability groups for SESE so the children can learn from their peers.
Teachers frequently have to move one child away from another due to misbehaviour, tension, or simply just to get the kids to mingle (the first two scenarios will still arise next year, the last might just have to be abandoned).
You can't leave the well-behaved child sitting beside the "messer" for the whole year. It's not fair on the well-behaved child.
Situations often arise where a child/ parent makes you aware of a situation which necessitates moving a child to a different position in the class.
The SET might come in for a short period in a day to work with a group of children. These children might ordinarily sit in different places around the room to get the benefit of working with more capable children. But for that half hour, they need to sit near the SET.
So do you envisage your pods in the senior classes to remain stagnant for the term/ year? It goes against every teaching strategy I've learned over many years. It really looks like it's back to chalk and talk in the senior classes. I'd be delighted to hear any of your ideas to avoid a stagnant classroom scenario.0 -
Delighted to find this, I'm SET next year and really worried about children I have taught for last 2 years. If there ever was a term where resource kids needed their full timetable it's this one. They're the kids who will loose out because of lockdown, the child who is fine accedically and emotionally will catch up no problem.
Would a possible solution be schools put together panels of unqualified subs for casual subbing days ie.. Local college students, stay at home mums, people that we know through the years and trust. Fast track their garda vetting. And it might be SET job to support them when they're subbing while SET continue with their timetable0 -
I think the underlying premise of your post is good re keeping children in touch with their friends but at a practical level it won’t work. There simply will not be enough time in the day. In our school unless there is a significant increase in the availability of subs then SET will primarily be taken up with cover.0
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During the lockdown, the whole emphasis was on how much students with SEN were regressing and needed to be back in the school environment. To take away these supports from those who need them most is unbelievable. I'm surprised parents aren't picking up on this, I guess they are unaware.0
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lulublue22 wrote: »SET next year is a joke. It is not feasible to have SET cover classes , provide support to their allocated caseload amd provide online support. My reading of support for online learning is that it is for those who fall into the very high risk category which is a very very small cohort of children. The difficulty arises when understandably anxious parents keep their children at home who may have a n illness that means they are at risk ( ie a substantial cohort of asthmatics woukd be in the at risk category , a small cohort in the high risk category and a very very small cohort in the very high risk category) on the assumption that the school will / is obliged to cater for them. This has the potential to cause huge issues for any SET team. SET next year will be pulled from pillar to post - remit is far too wide to be beneficial to anyone.
SET this year equates to papering over the cracks.0 -
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KerryConnor wrote: »Delighted to find this, I'm SET next year and really worried about children I have taught for last 2 years. If there ever was a term where resource kids needed their full timetable it's this one. They're the kids who will loose out because of lockdown, the child who is fine accedically and emotionally will catch up no problem.
Would a possible solution be schools put together panels of unqualified subs for casual subbing days ie.. Local college students, stay at home mums, people that we know through the years and trust. Fast track their garda vetting. And it might be SET job to support them when they're subbing while SET continue with their timetable
If I was to continue with my timetable, I wouldn't have any time to support any sub. I'm stretched as it is and my incoming pupils are greater in number and needs that my outgoing ones.
I don't intend doing inclass support as none of the classroom I work in would be big enough to allow me to work and keep a distance from the children, class teacher and in some cases an SNA. They may say SD isn't required in the junior classes but if I'm going to be exposed to children from 4-5 classes (and by default, anything circulating in each class) as well as possibly subbing full days in different classes, I will be keeping a distance from the children for my sake and the sake of a high risk family member that I don't have the option of keeping a distance from.0 -
So do you envisage your pods in the senior classes to remain stagnant for the term/ year? It goes against every teaching strategy I've learned over many years. It really looks like it's back to chalk and talk in the senior classes. I'd be delighted to hear any of your ideas to avoid a stagnant classroom scenario.
Normally my groups would change every two weeks.
Agree that it appears like we may need to create an exclusion zone around the desk and board and stay there during the day. Just watched a video from a school and the zone is clearly marked out for the teacher. No kids allowed in it.0 -
During the lockdown, the whole emphasis was on how much students with SEN were regressing and needed to be back in the school environment. To take away these supports from those who need them most is unbelievable. I'm surprised parents aren't picking up on this, I guess they are unaware.
Parents hear and see the headline numbers. Indeed a non teacher friend of mine said to me the other day that it must be great that the government are making my job easier by having all the extra teachers. This is what the general public take from the media coverage. A non clued in parent will think the same.0 -
I’m an SNA. Thanks for setting up this post.
I was away this week so only settling down to have a read of the report over the weekend.
I go between 2 classrooms to work with students so I’m curious as to how we are going to work this out. One student definitely requires assistance daily so it wouldn’t be possible to base myself in one room for an entire day and go to other room the next. In one room I move between 2 students (2 different classes) so me moving around will undermine the integrity of the bubble/pod system.
I want to be proactive and try and have workable solutions ready for the Principal/class teachers as I’m not the kind to just sit back and wait to be told what to do. They have enough on their plate trying to get themselves sorted.0 -
Someone posed a question similar to this to the hotline. It was in relation to SET shared between two schools as well as SET supporting students in a number of classes. The answer was no problem, continue as normal. No problem with the SET moving between multiple bubbles each day. No problem with the SET moving between multiple bubbles in more than one school. No problem indeed with the SET providing inclass support as part of working with multiple bubbles in several schools. So there you have. SET and presumably SNA have a special immunity. The integrity of the bubble only matters when presenting a nice plan to the country. Bubble is actually a good term as we all know how easy it is to destroy a bubble.
To answer your question though about a solution, my only idea would be to have the student who needs help sitting as close as possible to the door of the classroom so that you don't have to move too far into the room and can keep a distance from as many as possible. That's how I see myself working- I won't go past the doorway when getting children or keeping an eye on a class unless absolutely necessary.0 -
I totally agree.. When I say "support" I mean being the go to person if they need guidance to start, and hopefully they'd be able to work from packs left by class teacher. It's a better option than your entire timetable being pulled for the day if covering the class yourself.
Agree that parents aren't aware of this, it's massive implications for SEN kids. I wonder was it put in a circular and not the main guidelines to reduce the attention it would get.If I was to continue with my timetable, I wouldn't have any time to support any sub. I'm stretched as it is and my incoming pupils are greater in number and needs that my outgoing ones.
I don't intend doing inclass support as none of the classroom I work in would be big enough to allow me to work and keep a distance from the children, class teacher and in some cases an SNA. They may say SD isn't required in the junior classes but if I'm going to be exposed to children from 4-5 classes (and by default, anything circulating in each class) as well as possibly subbing full days in different classes, I will be keeping a distance from the children for my sake and the sake of a high risk family member that I don't have the option of keeping a distance from.0 -
It's only as the year goes on that it will register with parents of children with additional needs and then the anger and frustration will be direct at the school. They will point to previous circulars and documents about entitlements and responsibility of the school and they will be right.0
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It's only as the year goes on that it will register with parents of children with additional needs and then the anger and frustration will be direct at the school. They will point to previous circulars and documents about entitlements and responsibility of the school and they will be right.
School will have to direct them to the circular which puts this mess into practice. Only then will people get what we are shouting about.0 -
Thanks for setting this page up. It’s nice to have a civil forum to have real chats about how this is going to work/not work.
I’m due back in Sept after some leave, I’m usually always filled with excitement and look forward to going back. This year I’m filled with dread of the unknown. I’m generally not an anxious person but now I have anxiety going through the roof and I toss and turn thinking of it at night.
I have a bit of a challenging class this year. Normally I’d take this in my stride as I had my classroom management down to a tee and this helped everyone know their boundaries and learn in a happy positive class. However with all these supposed changes in the roadmap I really don’t know where I stand. My usual routines will be out the window and I fear that without that structure chaos will ensue!
Pods to me seem completely unworkable! I used to change my class seats each week. Leaving that aside what about those first few weeks when you’re getting to know your class, who’s chatty?who’s easily distracted and needs to be near you?what personalities rub each other up the wrong way? It’s completely unreasonable to assign seats on day one into a pod and not move them. What about the daily switches for guided reading and maths groups? This one little aspect alone is giving me nightmares!
What about shared resources? How can you teach maths in a jnr class with no concrete materials because I sure don’t have the budget to buy enough for 28 individual students! What about guided reading books shared between 7 classes?
God this is going to be difficult!0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 12021
“ Pods “ are what we call table groups .They have been in primary schools since I started teaching a long time ago . Pods sound safe - they aren’t . We need parents to know this , that there are no such things as pods in a class of 30. It’s just “ carry on as normal .”0 -
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byhookorbycrook wrote: »“ Pods “ are what we call table groups .They have been in primary schools since I started teaching a long time ago . Pods sound safe - they aren’t . We need parents to know this , that there are no such things as pods in a class of 30. It’s just “ carry on as normal .”
Exactly. The use of the words 'pods' and 'bubbles' gives the impression that they have come up with innovative way of doing things after months of working through ideas. Reality is they haven't reinvented the wheel. Parents are being hook winked and schools will be left to deal with them.0 -
byhookorbycrook wrote: »“ Pods “ are what we call table groups .They have been in primary schools since I started teaching a long time ago . Pods sound safe - they aren’t . We need parents to know this , that there are no such things as pods in a class of 30. It’s just “ carry on as normal .”
I did a little bit of helping out at an activity camp a few weeks ago. It just confirmed what I already knew. The kids are incapable of social distancing. Even children who are old enough to have a reasonable understanding of the virus and how it's transmitted, say from 7-10, can't really manage to stay apart. (In fact in Israel this type of age group were found to be the main spreaders in schools.) If you remind them or something prompts them to remember, they will pull back from each other. But they can't keep it to the fore of their minds enough to modify their behaviour for hours at a time. One minute they will be telling you how Covid spreads and how they must wash their hands or they wear masks in shops, the next minute they'll be practically licking each other.0 -
Social Distancing
A pipedream. It was never going to be possible in Irish schools with our numbers.
tes
Re social distancing. It had been suggested prior to holidays that SET carry out classes in back of classroom. I will prefer to do it in my class but will take only groups of 3 for sd. I have a very narrow room so the max I can take is 3.
Correcting Copies
Other than hold my pen at its base and not touch the copy, I have no answers for this one. Yuk!
For this I will be giving out A4 pages as I can put them easily in folder and also will not have to be handling copies. I will be using some photocopies but also will be giving work in multiplication, from timestables.com which keeps a record of speed and accuracy of tables. You have to set up an account for each child doing maths.
I also will continue to use Google classrooms, so the children can complete work at home online and I can correct and return it there, cutting down on paper in the room.0 -
The first post was very comprehensive and I don’t want to be critical but I wouldn’t have children wiping down anything but their own workspace that they have used. I don’t think giving some of them the job to wipe down PE equipment or any other equipment is a goer. We are doing as a means of virus control. Surely it would put them at more risk to be handling everything as they clean it.
Just in relation to children cleaning, it was probably ok precovid to have them wipe down tables. I do however remember phonecalls to Joe Duffy in the late 2000s, as students were asked to clean up after themselves in bathroooms , when they messed them up and gloves were provided. So I would be very cautious getting children to clean now.0 -
Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 12021
Just in relation to children cleaning, it was probably ok precovid to have them wipe down tables. I do however remember phonecalls to Joe Duffy in the late 2000s, as students were asked to clean up after themselves in bathroooms , when they messed them up and gloves were provided. So I would be very cautious getting children to clean now.
They can clean their own desk -it’s their own space .0 -
We used to have two 6th class helpers in each infant classroom to help open bottles/ be an extra person on hand to go and seek help from the office if required by teacher on yard duty/ bring children in from yard if injured/ bring children to toilet. (Two weren't really required - that was more for their own safety to avoid any accusations)
That won't be possible this year.
Workaround - children maybe to have lunch before teacher leaves the room? That will help with lunches but not with yard issues.0 -
But will it be practical for the teacher to be doing it either? Aren’t we supposed to stay 1-2 metres away? Aren’t we supposed to wipe down anything that is shared? If we open bottles, lunchboxes, oranges, yoghurt, those bloody vacuum food flasks that gets airlocked and are near impossible to open (little personal rant there!), we would need to wipe them down after touching them or use sanitiser in between each one. You could be opening 10-15 items each day in infants.
Parents will need to be told to ensure child can access all lunch items completely independently as no help can be given.0 -
But will it be practical for the teacher to be doing it either? Aren’t we supposed to stay 1-2 metres away? Aren’t we supposed to wipe down anything that is shared? If we open bottles, lunchboxes, oranges, yoghurt, those bloody vacuum food flasks that gets airlocked and are near impossible to open (little personal rant there!), we would need to wipe them down after touching them or use sanitiser in between each one. You could be opening 10-15 items each day in infants.
Parents will need to be told to ensure child can access all lunch items completely independently as no help can be given.
Could this be the end of those yogurts tube things in school that on occasion go everywhere when you open them?0 -
wirelessdude01 wrote: »Could this be the end of those yogurts tube things in school that on occasion go everywhere when you open them?
Every cloud....0 -
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Frubes ! And those strawberry shaped yogurt pots that don’t stand up . And drink cartons with plastic straws. Nightmare.0
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