'Concern' over distribution of LC Results

Treppen · 15-07-2020 7:57pm #1

I'm not really seeing the problem here. Students can access their results online!

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/other/schools-express-concerns-over-distribution-of-leaving-cert-results/ar-BB16KMnq?ocid=BingHPC

There seems to be some inference that it would be tricky having the LC teachers around at the same time as the results were given to students.

I know this gets debated every year about 'being there for your students', but I would have thought this year, more than any other, was the time for said teachers to be as far removed from pupils as possible.

Are they trying to say in a nice way to students to 'not come into the school'.

maynooth_rules · 15-07-2020 9:00pm

I always go to the school for students results. I'm one of only a handful of teachers that do it surprisingly. But as you said, this is certainly one year we shouldn't. It just doesn't sit right given the role we played on results this year. Another unfortunate happening from this bloody virus

TheDriver · 16-07-2020 11:40am

Its difficult. I've experienced a number of occasions over the years whereby a student is disappointed and takes out the blame there and then on whoever they can see. And that's in a regular year with a standard examination process.

Treppen · 16-07-2020 11:58am

Does the vow of silence continue on until the appeals process is over?

Postgrad10 · 16-07-2020 12:00pm

I think the collecting results from school shouldn’t happen this year. The department should release them online and post them out. Taking away that role from schools this year. Schools can still provide support guidance re: options.

Treppen · 16-07-2020 12:11pm

Postgrad10 wrote: »

I think the collecting results from school shouldn’t happen this year. The department should release them online and post them out. Taking away that role from schools this year. Schools can still provide support guidance re: options.

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

RealJohn · 16-07-2020 12:47pm

I would usually go into the school if I had a leaving cert class, more to find out the results myself than to be there for the students, if I’m honest, but I’d usually be available for the students to talk to, if they need to. I definitely will not be in the school this year. 0% chance of it.

Rosita · 16-07-2020 4:06pm

I've gone in a couple of times over the years. Never quite understood the "supporting students" angle - when I was in that situation my teachers were the last people I wanted to meet. Also I'd have no way of knowing what time the students would be there anyway.

I'd have gone just to see results but this year what's the point either way. Just give them the results on-line.

mirrorwall14 · 16-07-2020 5:08pm

I’d normally go in to see the results myself but I definitely won’t do that on the day this year tbh

Spanish Eyes · 16-07-2020 5:10pm

Would the schools be even open anyway?

Postgrad10 · 16-07-2020 7:47pm

Treppen wrote: »

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

The warning from the department is still valid. They can’t ask for advice like that. They also need reminding that the overall calculated grade comes from the Department not the school.

Postgrad10 · 16-07-2020 7:49pm

Rosita wrote: »

I've gone in a couple of times over the years. Never quite understood the "supporting students" angle - when I was in that situation my teachers were the last people I wanted to meet. Also I'd have no way of knowing what time the students would be there anyway.

I'd have gone just to see results but this year what's the point either way. Just give them the results on-line.

Oh I only meant pastoral , guidance related support. I want my classes to well but I’m never there results day any year.

mirrorwall14 · 16-07-2020 8:50pm

Well we’ll all be in school now since they are delayed....

aratsarse101 · 16-07-2020 10:02pm

They’ve only been delayed on legal advice. Avoids complications re duty of care. Advice was not to release during 2019/2020 school year.

deiseindublin · 16-07-2020 11:01pm

aratsarse101 wrote: »

They’ve only been delayed on legal advice. Avoids complications re duty of care. Advice was not to release during 2019/2020 school year.

I'm being stupid obviously but what difference does it make to duty of care? In my experience, teachers don't turn their backs on students that need help with appeals or checking a paper, whichever school year it falls in.

And anyway, early/mid August would never have counted as being part of the academic year.

RealJohn · 16-07-2020 11:50pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Well we’ll all be in school now since they are delayed....

I’m wondering if we will, now. Surely, it doesn’t make sense to have schools open, going about their normal business, and the previous year’s leaving certs hanging around, looking for explanations of what happened to their grades, and possibly not doing so in a calm and polite manner?

rainbowtrout · 17-07-2020 1:12am

Treppen wrote: »

What happens if a student asks a subject teacher for guidance on whether they should appeal or not!

Well before it would have been due to something concrete on their exam paper. The only thing they can appeal now is the calculated grade process, which is an administrative check. So unless the exam secretary entered marks incorrectly or didn't enter a mark at all, there isn't going to be a whole lot to appeal.

Having said that, it won't stop students appealing out of desperation. Many students seem to be under the impression that if they appeal they will more than likely be upgraded. I've gone and viewed scripts with students many times over the years and there's always one who is 4-5% off the next grade up, and I might find something small on the paper which is only worth 0.5-1%, and I tell them that it's not mathematically possible for them to improve and they still send it back.

See also 'They can't leave me on 89.5% brigade'. Why, yes, yes they can.

I'm sure this year it will be no different.

rainbowtrout · 17-07-2020 1:24am

RealJohn wrote: »

I’m wondering if we will, now. Surely, it doesn’t make sense to have schools open, going about their normal business, and the previous year’s leaving certs hanging around, looking for explanations of what happened to their grades, and possibly not doing so in a calm and polite manner?

Dept might release the grades early morning like happens with the CAO results. Most will login to get them and there would be far fewer going into school.

RealJohn · 17-07-2020 10:02am

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Dept might release the grades early morning like happens with the CAO results. Most will login to get them and there would be far fewer going into school.

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

Treppen · 17-07-2020 10:16am

RealJohn wrote: »

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

RealJohn · 17-07-2020 10:22am

Treppen wrote: »

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

What can you do? “Sorry you’re disappointed, kiddo, but I can’t talk about the mark I gave you. All I can tell you is that I submitted a mark for you, and the SEC ran it through some process that hasn’t been revealed to us, and that result is what came out. It’s like a function in maths, only one where the function itself is a mystery, and I’m not allowed to tell you what the input was either.”
Get one last maths lesson in.

rainbowtrout · 17-07-2020 12:41pm

RealJohn wrote: »

That won’t stop the ones looking for an explanation though.

No that's true, but anyone who clears the normal range of points for their chosen course probably won't come near the school. Very hard to know how it will pan out.

rainbowtrout · 17-07-2020 12:48pm

Treppen wrote: »

You, as a teacher, find out a student was bumped 2 grade points, say from H2 to H4. (Apart from the fact the 'it could never happen' in the first place). Student might think it was down to you cos you hated them or whatever, so the student isn't thinking of appealing.

Would you do anything?

But aren't they entitled to know what was submitted for them by the school if they appeal?

Taking your example, you give your student an 85. DES pulls it down to 65 and the above happens as you describe. Not much can be done about that. But what if there is an administrative error and whoever input the grades in your school input 65 by accident. You in good faith gave 85, and in this instance DES didn't change it because they don't know the 85 ever existed.

Presumably that is what the appeals process is actually for, to check for admin errors.

mtoutlemonde · 17-07-2020 1:40pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But aren't they entitled to know what was submitted for them by the school if they appeal?

Taking your example, you give your student an 85. DES pulls it down to 65 and the above happens as you describe. Not much can be done about that. But what if there is an administrative error and whoever input the grades in your school input 65 by accident. You in good faith gave 85, and in this instance DES didn't change it because they don't know the 85 ever existed.

Presumably that is what the appeals process is actually for, to check for admin errors.

I asked principal your first question and the answer is yes. A student can put in a freedom of information request one month after the appeals process and all information including the grade you gave them is returned.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-07-2020 1:45pm

Yes students can put in data access request and will receive Form A and redacted Form B which will show their rank in the class but everyone else blacked out.

But what is the advice for teachers when they are directly asked by a student what percentage they submitted, once results are released? Are they to say "sorry, I can't discuss it, submit a request for your data"? Or should they discuss it at that point and tell the student? What is to be considered best practice?

daheff · 17-07-2020 1:52pm

I think this year more than ever teachers should be up front & centre for their students. The teachers have given the results so should be open & honest enough to talk with, and justify the marks given.

Anything else would be a cowardly display by the teachers.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-07-2020 1:55pm

daheff wrote: »

I think this year more than ever teachers should be up front & centre for their students. The teachers have given the results so should be open & honest enough to talk with, and justify the marks given.

Anything else would be a cowardly display by the teachers.

It's not so simple as throwing around poorly informed insults. As it stands, teachers are forbidden from discussing it. There's currently no indication that will be changed. If it is they will likely have to follow school policy on it, if guidance from higher up is not issued.

And teachers have given a percentage mark. The result issued is not within their control. They have not given the results.

Treppen · 17-07-2020 4:29pm

Does this sit well with anyone, Norma Foley's announcement today?

"Over 450,000 individual grades have to be prepared and checked and the outcomes need to be reviewed using different demographic characteristics which will include gender and socio-economic status to ensure that the grades are as fair and equitable as possible."

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/7777b-minister-foley-announces-next-steps-for-this-years-leaving-certificate-students/

So not only will a schools' previous grades from previous students be influencing a particular student's final grade, but also gender and socio-economic status.

Is this turning into a political agenda tool?

rainbowtrout · 17-07-2020 4:34pm

Treppen wrote: »

Does this sit well with anyone, Norma Foley's announcement today?

So not only will a schools' previous grades from previous students be influencing a particular student's final grade, but also gender and socio-economic status.

Is this turning into a political agenda tool?

The stats for grades are broken down by gender and county every year on sec website. I presume this year will be no different and DES will run a check to see how they compare with previous year

Treppen · 17-07-2020 6:15pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The stats for grades are broken down by gender and county every year on sec website. I presume this year will be no different and DES will run a check to see how they compare with previous year

It's a very different thing to

1. Analyse completed grades after the process is over and release a breakdown according to gender and S-E status.

&

2. Alter grades according to gender and socio economic status before a final grade is awarded.

What I'm saying is that you can't reverse engineer a gender or S-E status into a grade. Yes, you can attempt to match it with previous school/subject results but gender etc. were never part of the deal, maybe they should look at race, religion, disability..etc. and factor them in too!

daheff · 17-07-2020 7:51pm

Ellis Curved Driver wrote: »

It's not so simple as throwing around poorly informed insults. As it stands, teachers are forbidden from discussing it. There's currently no indication that will be changed. If it is they will likely have to follow school policy on it, if guidance from higher up is not issued.

And teachers have given a percentage mark. The result issued is not within their control. They have not given the results.

So no reason for teachers not to turn up at the schools then??

'Concern' over distribution of LC Results

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