married abroad and separation/divorce

duffysfarm · 25-03-2019 3:32pm #1

if someone got married abroad in the Caribbean and the couple are now looking at a separation/divorce is the marriage actually recognised in Ireland in the first place?

[Deleted User] · 25-03-2019 3:36pm

duffysfarm wrote: »

if someone got married abroad in the Caribbean and the couple are now looking at a separation/divorce is the marriage actually recognised in Ireland in the first place?

As far i know from living in Vietnam, there is a significant extra hurdle in making it recognised in Ireland. If they're wondering, my guess would be that it's not.

Other people should have better input. But the marriage should have included some Irish Embassy work for it to be recognised.

duffysfarm · 25-03-2019 3:40pm

thanks for the reply. it was a friend who asked me about it and it was only when i went through it with him that i asked him was he actually married in Ireland. That in itself raises another problem for me as i got married abroad so i will have to check and see if i am actually married!

[Deleted User] · 25-03-2019 3:49pm

duffysfarm wrote: »

thanks for the reply. it was a friend who asked me about it and it was only when i went through it with him that i asked him was he actually married in Ireland. That in itself raises another problem for me as i got married abroad so i will have to check and see if i am actually married!

If I married my girlfriend here, it would apply to Vietnam. A friend got it done right and the UK embassy had a notice up for a few weeks, and there was paperwork involved. If you're doubting it, and you're in a country without some legal links in that regard, you probably aren't married in Irish law.

Edit: As in, an insurance company or something would be able to negate that link. As far as I know anyway. I could buy a marriage cert here for $50..

Peregrinus · 26-03-2019 2:49am

duffysfarm wrote: »

if someone got married abroad in the Caribbean and the couple are now looking at a separation/divorce is the marriage actually recognised in Ireland in the first place?

Generally, yes. If the marriage was valid according to the law of the place in which it was celebrated, then it will be recognised by Irish law.

Principal exception is where, as a matter of Irish law, you're not free to marry. So, e.g, if an Irish 17-year old goes to Scotland and marries, that marriage will not be recognised in Irish law, even though its perfectly valid in Scotland. Or if an Irish person goes to a country where polygamy is lawful and enters into a polygamous marriage, that marriage will not be recognised in Irish law.

But, apart from factors like this, if the marriage is lawful and valid according to the laws of Jamaica (or wherever), then it is recognised by Irish law, and you can run separation/divorce proceedings in Ireland.

splinter65 · 26-03-2019 10:33am

duffysfarm wrote: »

if someone got married abroad in the Caribbean and the couple are now looking at a separation/divorce is the marriage actually recognised in Ireland in the first place?

If you went through with a marriage in the Caribbean that was recognized by the officialdom in the Caribbean then it will be recognized by officialdom in Ireland as long as it doesn’t break any of our laws surrounding civil marriage.
You will have to get a divorce if you want to remarry.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 10:35am

When it's so easy to buy fake marriage certificates and get entered into the system in these countries, is it not a bit odd that it would be treated as valid in Ireland?

I'm honestly surprised reading the last two posts and will happily admit I'm wrong if you guys are right.

splinter65 · 26-03-2019 11:08am

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When it's so easy to buy fake marriage certificates and get entered into the system in these countries, is it not a bit odd that it would be treated as valid in Ireland?

I'm honestly surprised reading the last two posts and will happily admit I'm wrong if you guys are right.

Try presenting a fake marriage certificate that you bought in Bermuda to the civil registration office here in Ireland to be recognized and see how you get on.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 11:42am

splinter65 wrote: »

Try presenting a fake marriage certificate that you bought in Bermuda to the civil registration office here in Ireland to be recognized and see how you get on.

My long-term girlfriend could easily get a legit marriage cert and be married to me here without my knowledge. All the photos of years of relationship as proof.

"We lost the wedding photos."

The only thing possibly off would be if there was my faked signature I suppose. I'm thinking quite specific here I suppose.

....... · 26-03-2019 11:58am

Ads by Google wrote: »

When it's so easy to buy fake marriage certificates and get entered into the system in these countries, is it not a bit odd that it would be treated as valid in Ireland?

I'm honestly surprised reading the last two posts and will happily admit I'm wrong if you guys are right.

Why would it NOT be treated as valid in Ireland?

If you get legally married you are married. I dont get married in Ireland then go somewhere else and am no longer married?

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 12:00pm

....... wrote: »

Why would it NOT be treated as valid in Ireland?

If you get legally married you are married. I dont get married in Ireland then go somewhere else and am no longer married?

I genuinely thought that outside of the EU and places like America, further effort was needed to make sure Ireland was aware of it. Plenty of people here in Asia talk like that so I assumed it to be the case.

I could get married here tomorrow and there'd be no record in Ireland. My girlfriend could fake the exact evidence to show.

....... · 26-03-2019 12:03pm

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I genuinely thought that outside of the EU and places like America, further effort was needed to make sure Ireland was aware of it. Plenty of people here in Asia talk like that so I assumed it to be the case.

I did not get married in Ireland and I am treated as married by social welfare, revenue commissioners, the bank, my job, my driving licence, passport etc....

I had to produce my marriage cert in some cases, however, Im not sure how they would ascertain it was valid tbh and generally they just took a photocopy and handed it back.

Im struggling to see the advantage in one party pretending to be married with a fake cert?

ebbsy · 26-03-2019 12:03pm

If you are married anywhere then you are deemed to be married in Ireland.

That is why non nationals who are getting married here have to provide a cert that they are free to marry. (or they did).

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 12:07pm

....... wrote: »

Im struggling to see the advantage in one party pretending to be married with a fake cert?

Death would be a big one. Anyways, it doesn't matter to the OP if what you guys say is right.

....... · 26-03-2019 12:17pm

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Death would be a big one. Anyways, it doesn't matter to the OP if what you guys say is right.

Do you mean making a claim on the persons estate after they had died?

If someone not married dies and someone else appears claiming to have been married to them - someone is going to ask questions. You cant just rock up to a solicitor and say - oh by the way, I was married to that rich dead guy so hand over the spondoolies.

Anyone with any amount worth leaving behind will have made a will and it will be known what their marital status is when they die.

Although I do know a lady who was married in Rhodesia years ago and after her husband died (in Ireland) she couldnt find the marriage cert (they had lost plenty of stuff when they moved from Africa back to Ireland) so the company he worked for refused to pay his pension to her despite herself and her kids swearing affidavits that he WAS married. They couldnt get the original paperwork out of the current Zimbabewaen government. So she has lost out financially.

I would think its more common that people lose out over not being able to prove they ARE married rather than people gain by pretending they WERE married.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 12:21pm

Well it's two sides of the same coin really. As I say, I'm surprised embassies don't have to be notified of this stuff. I never considered that I wouldn't notify the Irish Embassy here when or if I marry my girlfriend.

....... · 26-03-2019 12:36pm

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Well it's two sides of the same coin really. As I say, I'm surprised embassies don't have to be notified of this stuff. I never considered that I wouldn't notify the Irish Embassy here when or if I marry my girlfriend.

To what end? Like, what would you think happens when you notify them?

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 12:39pm

....... wrote: »

To what end? Like, what would you think happens when you notify them?

I dunno. Administrative stuff. This Irish citizen is now married type of thing.

Otherwise i can just get married here, break up, and my wife can't even get word in in Ireland and tell them I'm already married and am committing poligamy.

I thought it was the point of the registration office. Everyone gets registered.

....... · 26-03-2019 12:43pm

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I dunno. Administrative stuff. This Irish citizen is now married type of thing.

Otherwise i can just get married here, break up, and my wife can't even get word in in Ireland and tell them I'm already married and committing poligamy.

I thought it was the point of the registration office. Everyone gets registered.

It sounds nice and quaint and a bit Orwellian

It is pretty easy to commit bigamy. Just dont tell and carry on getting married in various places. Have at it!

They only register the things that happen in the country - they dont register things from other countries.

In your example of your girlfriend faking a marriage cert. If she tried to extract money from your estate, the solicitor could take the fake marriage cert and request confirmation from the registry office in the country it was registered in and theyd find out pretty fast that it was fake.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 12:50pm

....... wrote: »

It sounds nice and quaint and a bit Orwellian

It is pretty easy to commit bigamy. Just dont tell and carry on getting married in various places. Have at it!

They only register the things that happen in the country - they dont register things from other countries.

In your example of your girlfriend faking a marriage cert. If she tried to extract money from your estate, the solicitor could take the fake marriage cert and request confirmation from the registry office in the country it was registered in and theyd find out pretty fast that it was fake.

But they wouldn't. It's not fake paper. It's fake everything. I personally have a contact through a friend's marriage that can make any sort of magic happen. That was my premise for all of this. If I want, I can be legally married here for years if I want.

....... · 26-03-2019 12:55pm

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But they wouldn't. It's not fake paper. It's fake everything. I personally have a contact through a friend's marriage that can make any sort of magic happen. That was my premise for all of this. If I want, I can be legally married here for years if I want.

I dont understand you?

If the counterfeiting is so good that no one could detect it then yes - someone could pretend to have been married to you. But counterfeiting is possible for any document anywhere in the world.

Its a bit of a long con to wait til someone is dead and pretend to have been married to them - I wouldnt be too worried about it.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 1:00pm

....... wrote: »

I dont understand you?

If the counterfeiting is so good that no one could detect it then yes - someone could pretend to have been married to you. But counterfeiting is possible for any document anywhere in the world.

It's not "counterfeit". It's straight to the source in these places and all official systems will show what has been paid to be shown.

Honestly, it's hard to explain the level of corruption available, to Irish people. No Irish person can pay a few grand to the right person for government records to be changed. I can, my girlfriend can.

It's just how it is. And it's basically why I'm surprised that you guys are right. I'm not arguing that you aren't at the moment. Just saying it's mad to trust another country's records.

c6ysaphjvqw41k · 26-03-2019 1:04pm

If you get married abroad its valid here as long as it doesn't conflict with any laws here. You don't have to register it here or do anything, other than get married in that country and take a cert.
I legally got married in the US. I have a US wedding certificate. I never registered it anywhere here. I told revenue and they never asked for my cert. I got a new passport, drivers licence etc. and they all just took a photo copy. There's no way I could fake it because if anyone tries to take a photocopy of it in colour its protected and photocopies come out blurry. If someone tries to take a photocopy in black and white it comes up written all over it "VOID". It has a raised seal of the State of NJ on it. They had issues photocopying it in banks, NDLS etc.

For my husband to move here all that was required was to show them our marriage certificate.

I suppose nothing is stopping me marrying another person here because there's no record, but if anyone ever found out it wouldn't be legal because I'm already married. How did they know I wasn't already married in Ireland? My brother in law and my sister had to sign and take an oath that they knew me and knew I wasn't already married.

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 1:06pm

....... wrote: »

Its a bit of a long con to wait til someone is dead and pretend to have been married to them - I wouldnt be too worried about it.

An Irish guy recently died here. "Of natural caused". Everyone says it was the girlfriend. Rich Irish plus connected person is a bad combo.

Again, I'm arguing very specifically in this case, but a death-inheritance is plausible.

....... · 26-03-2019 1:11pm

Ads by Google wrote: »

It's not "counterfeit". It's straight to the source in these places and all official systems will show what has been paid to be shown.

Honestly, it's hard to explain the level of corruption available, to Irish people. No Irish person can pay a few grand to the right person for government records to be changed. I can, my girlfriend can.

It's just how it is. And it's basically why I'm surprised that you guys are right. I'm not arguing that you aren't at the moment. Just saying it's mad to trust another country's records.

Oh you absolutely cannot trust another countries records.

But what you are suggesting is quite an elaborate long con for what is probably very little gain.

Maybe there is a big criminal underworld in people from Asian countries pretending to be married to Irish people and making claims on their estate after death but (a) it sounds a bit unlikely and (b) for all of this to work there would have to be no one else trying to make a claim on the estate and (c) if the country is well known for its corruption they might well look for proof of living as a married couple in Ireland. Youd be surprised how the vultures land upon death, I find it hard to believe anyone could rock up and say they were married and get away with it unless there were no other living relatives and plenty of proof.

I mean, if you were loaded and worried this would happen surely you would have let your solicitor know that you were not married before you died?

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 1:14pm

....... wrote: »

Oh you absolutely cannot trust another countries records.

But what you are suggesting is quite an elaborate long con for what is probably very little gain.

Maybe there is a big criminal underworld in people from Asian countries pretending to be married to Irish people and making claims on their estate after death but (a) it sounds a bit unlikely and (b) for all of this to work there would have to be no one else trying to make a claim on the estate and (c) if the country is well known for its corruption they might well look for proof of living as a married couple in Ireland. Youd be surprised how the vultures land upon death, I find it hard to believe anyone could rock up and say they were married and get away with it unless there were no other living relatives and plenty of proof.

I mean, if you were loaded and worried this would happen surely you would have let your solicitor know that you were not married before you died?

This is simply a "legal" discussion. I'm not worried. There's a reason Vietnamese driving licenses are worthless outside the country, I'm just surprised that records of marriage are.

Anyways, we can go round in circles or leave it at this. You're right, I'm wrong, I have reasons to believe it should be different, you think it's fine as it is.

Good chat, honestly.

....... · 26-03-2019 1:20pm

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This is simply a "legal" discussion. I'm not worried. There's a reason Vietnamese driving licenses are worthless outside the country, I'm just surprised that records of marriage are.

Anyways, we can go round in circles or leave it at this. You're right, I'm wrong, I have reasons to believe it should be different, you think it's fine as it is.

Good chat, honestly.

Ill be sure to warn anyone I know about the dangers of the Vietnamese rocking up to get their estate after death by pretending to have been married to them!

You know like on pensions and investments you have to name the person who would be getting it after you die - they dont just hand it out to anyone who says they were married to you?

[Deleted User] · 26-03-2019 1:23pm

....... wrote: »

Ill be sure to warn anyone I know about the dangers of the Vietnamese rocking up to get their estate after death by pretending to have been married to them!

You know like on pensions and investments you have to name the person who would be getting it after you die - they dont just hand it out to anyone who says they were married to you?

I had my concerns, you addressed them. No need to rub it in. This place is a source of good info and I've learned something.

ebbsy · 26-03-2019 1:23pm

Some countries will look for a certificate of freedom to marry before you can get married there as well.

....... · 26-03-2019 2:21pm

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I had my concerns, you addressed them. No need to rub it in. This place is a source of good info and I've learned something.

Sorry I was trying to lighten the mood - not rub anything in.

Peregrinus · 26-03-2019 3:16pm

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This is simply a "legal" discussion. I'm not worried. There's a reason Vietnamese driving licenses are worthless outside the country, I'm just surprised that records of marriage are.

The question is not whether a record of marriage from Teapotistan will be accepted without question in Ireland. The question is whether an actual marriage actually celebrated in Teapotistan according to Teapotistani law is treated as a valid marriage in Ireland. And the answer is yes, it is. This has always been so.

(And this makes sense. If it were not so, every married couple immigrating to Ireland would have to remarry once they got to Ireland. And you haven't noticed that happening, have you?)

This doesn't stop you challenging a Teapotistani marriage certificate presented by somebody claiming an inheritance, or alimony, or whatever. If you have reason to believe that no marriage was ever celebrated in Teapotistan and that the marriage certificate is either forged or simply erroneous, you can present your evidence to that effect.

married abroad and separation/divorce

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